EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[charlesphoto]

12 hours ago, Ehsu said:

Hi Alex; Thanks for your quick reply. And sorry for my typo. Yes, my dual output linear PS powers both the ER and the home network switch that goes into the A side. 

 

The point of the question is ground. In a Naim system, all Naim components share one ground at " source " ie, my streamer. So if I connect the ER ground screw to Naim preamp then it means that I will bridge the A side to the B side through Naim preamp? Doesnt it defeat the purpose of all the isolation work you have done?

 

Cheers

 

You might want to check over on the Naim forum about this. I know this applied to their cd players of yore, but not sure about their streamers. You can start here:

 

https://community.naimaudio.com/t/uniti-atom-grounding-switch/1491

[BlueDL]

Hi. Sorry if it’s been covered earlier, but I have an OpticalRendu (OR) and I’m trying to understand if operating the moat in ‘reverse’ will be compromised if I connect my Sonictransporter (Roon Server) to a neighbouring ‘A’ side port - in parallel with the optical feed to the OR.

 

Would it be better to operate the moat in the intended way and use the single copper ‘B’ side port to feed the OR via an OpticalModule, or does the 100MBps limit thwart that idea (as I think the OM is gigabit only)?

 

Thanks for any steer on this.

[Superdad]

27 minutes ago, BlueDL said:

Hi. Sorry if it’s been covered earlier, but I have an OpticalRendu (OR) and I’m trying to understand if operating the moat in ‘reverse’ will be compromised if I connect my Sonictransporter (Roon Server) to a neighbouring ‘A’ side port - in parallel with the optical feed to the OR.

 

Would it be better to operate the moat in the intended way and use the single copper ‘B’ side port to feed the OR via an OpticalModule, or does the 100MBps limit thwart that idea (as I think the OM is gigabit only)?

 

Actually I think the best method in your situation would be to attach your SonicTransporter to your standard house Ethernet switch (the same one that for your set-up you will feed the 'B' side of the EtherREGEN). This will allow you to keep the optical SFP as the only connection on the 'A' side.

 

While the opticalModule is a terrific FMC, placing it between an EtherREGEN and your endpoint (opticalRendu in your case) may--for several technical reasons--diminish the performance of the EtherREGEN. So I think my above suggestion will yield better performance, be simpler, and will require one less power supply.

 

[A clue to part of what I am saying is with the power supplies; Folks note a significant improvement of the opticalModule with a good PS; with our full 'B' side power isolation a special PS is not going to make as much difference for the EtherREGEN; plus no introduction of another -VE/"ground" power domain right before the renderer. There are other factors having to with clocking, etc., but I truly do not want to diverge the thread into hypothetical discussion of comparative performance of these 3 very fine products which share various amounts of tech and brilliance from the mind of JS. The small subset of EtherREGEN purchasers who already own an opticalModule and/or opticalRendu will have ample opportunity to experiment and report their real-world experiences. ]

[FileMakerDev]

On 10/19/2019 at 11:53 PM, Superdad said:

New version of the User Guide is linked above and here.

 

Alex, that guide is superb and (to the best of my knowledge at this point in time) answers all the questions I was going to post here. Thank you.

[Superdad]

15 hours ago, Ehsu said:

The point of the question is ground. In a Naim system, all Naim components share one ground at " source " ie, my streamer. So if I connect the ER ground screw to Naim preamp then it means that I will bridge the A side to the B side through Naim preamp? Doesnt it defeat the purpose of all the isolation work you have done?

 

You make a good point there, and it is even possible that my advice in the User Guide--regarding an "audio system component" as a possible ground point--is in error.  I'll chat with John about this before saying much more.  

We have had a couple of general conversations on the subject in a related way--around the fact that ultimately a lot (most?) of components lead back to AC mains ground. I mean, unless people are running one half of their system on batteries--or feed their house from two separate mains runs from two power pole transformers(!)--there are going to be some paths common between the computer/networking end and the DAC/amp ends.  But it comes back to matters of impedance, lower resistance paths, common- versus differential-mode stuff, etc.

 

It is even possible that people will discover (by ear) that they want to avoid the use of the EtherREGEN's Ground screw.

Remember, it is there entirely to make the port-to-port leakage isolation on the 'A' side a bit more effective. It does not (as far as we yet know, perhaps we'll try to measure/compare) enhance what goes across the ADIMM™ moat to the 'B' side.  The 'A' side ports already have a astounding (how do they fit them all in there?!) 12 transformer cores PER port (that's a $20 module in alarmingly short supply)--so I suspect that not a lot of leakage is passing port-to-port on the 'A' side even without grounding (though again, the SMPS we supply with the EtherREGEN already takes care of that).

Also, if one is not populating several of the 'A' side ports with all sorts of standard network connections, then the above 'A'-side port-to-port blocking will not matter much (if at all in the case of just one 'A' side connection).

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, FileMakerDev said:

Alex, that guide is superb and (to the best of my knowledge at this point in time) answers all the questions I was going to post here. Thank you.

 

Thank you!! That is music to my ears, because perhaps the Guide will prevent our e-mail box from overflowing with a thousand questions once people are in possession of their EtherREGENs and about to install them. 

[BlueDL]

40 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Actually I think the best method in your situation would be to attach your SonicTransporter to your standard house Ethernet switch (the same one that for your set-up you will feed the 'B' side of the EtherREGEN). This will allow you to keep the optical SFP as the only connection on the 'A' side.

 

While the opticalModule is a terrific FMC, placing it between an EtherREGEN and your endpoint (opticalRendu in your case) may--for several technical reasons--diminish the performance of the EtherREGEN. So I think my above suggestion will yield better performance, be simpler, and will require one less power supply.

 

[A clue to part of what I am saying is with the power supplies; Folks note a significant improvement of the opticalModule with a good PS; with our full 'B' side power isolation a special PS is not going to make as much difference for the EtherREGEN; plus no introduction of another -VE/"ground" power domain right before the renderer. There are other factors having to with clocking, etc., but I truly do not want to diverge the thread into hypothetical discussion of comparative performance of these 3 very fine products which share various amounts of tech and brilliance from the mind of JS. The small subset of EtherREGEN purchasers who already own an opticalModule and/or opticalRendu will have ample opportunity to experiment and report their real-world experiences. ]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

As my router is located about 10 metres from my hifi and there is nowhere local to it that I could place the Sonictransporter without risking a divorce(!), I guess I should introduce a switch at the ‘hifi end’ between the router feed and the EtherREGEN so that I can then use just the SFP output to the OR. Makes things a bit busier local to the hifi, but it means I have a use for the Netgear GS105 that the EtherREGEN would be replacing! 🤔

[Puma Cat]

Wow, the questions are getting complicated...I feel for Alex and admire his patience in trying to answer a multitude of configuration questions.

 

I like Alex's and k-man's recommendation: play around with different configurations and use the one that sounds best. 

 

 

[JohnSwenson]

28 minutes ago, Puma Cat said:

Wow, the questions are getting complicated...I feel for Alex and admire his patience in trying to answer a multitude of configuration questions.

 

I like Alex's and k-man's recommendation: play around with different configurations and use the one that sounds best. 

 

 

As long as you have the moat in between upstream and endpoint all these other issues will be small subtleties. Just hook it up in a simple manor (crossing the moat of course), get blown away by the music, listen like crazy, then if you really want to tweak try different things. Just getting the EtherREGEN in the system is the primary thing.

 

John S.

[Indydan]

On 10/22/2019 at 10:01 PM, Ehsu said:

Hi Alex; Thanks for your quick reply. And sorry for my typo. Yes, my dual output linear PS powers both the ER and the home network switch that goes into the A side. 

 

The point of the question is ground. In a Naim system, all Naim components share one ground at " source " ie, my streamer. So if I connect the ER ground screw to Naim preamp then it means that I will bridge the A side to the B side through Naim preamp? Doesnt it defeat the purpose of all the isolation work you have done?

 

Cheers

I have a Naim system. I am also somewhat detail oriented... I don't worry about this at all! I will just use the EtherRegen with the supplied power supply and not worry about the ground. 

 

It's possible to overthink this stuff. Just enjoy the music!

[Indydan]

Alex, any chance of you posting more pictures of the EtherRegen. You know, just to wet our appetites while we wait for delivery! 

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, Indydan said:

Alex, any chance of you posting more pictures of the EtherRegen. You know, just to wet our appetites while we wait for delivery! 

Indy Dan,

 

Good idea! Hey Alex, please cover the EtherRegen with a bit of whipped cream before taking pictures please.

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, Indydan said:

Alex, any chance of you posting more pictures of the EtherRegen. You know, just to wet our appetites while we wait for delivery! 

 

It’s a small box.  The web page for EtherREGEN already has the best shots of the front and back that have yet been taken. Plus the circuit board pics.  I’m not sure what more there is to see. 

 

13 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Good idea! Hey Alex, please cover the EtherRegen with a bit of whipped cream before taking pictures please.

 

Sorry, I’m fresh out of whip cream and I swore off those fake red cherries years ago.  

 

Just a reminder gang:

I’m leaving in the morning for a long weekend with my wife in the eastern Sierras—returning to the office on Monday to begin processing the first run of EtherREGEN boards (my assistant will be here the whole weekend assembling cases).

No WiFi where I’m going, so please don’t take this thread on any crazy tangents while I’m gone. 

[Jud]

26 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I’m leaving in the morning for a long weekend with my wife in the eastern Sierras

Please do sign in under “Mr. and Mrs. Pierre Delecto.”  😄

[Ralf11]

or Carlos Danger

[stevebythebay]

Please stay safe...no more broken ribs...or anything else!

[Puma Cat]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Indy Dan,

 

Good idea! Hey Alex, please cover the EtherRegen with a bit of whipped cream before taking pictures please.

What would Herb Alpert say? 😆

[Puma Cat]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

I’m leaving in the morning for a long weekend with my wife in the eastern Sierras 

I gotcha covered, Alex! 

South Tufa, Mono Lake, Lee Vining, Eastern Sierra. Fujifilm X-Pro1 & 14mm f/2.8

[Ehsu]

@Superdad Thanks so much for yours and John's time to reply my question. Please enjoy your well deserved holidays and come back re-energised, ready for production!

 

@k-man and @Indydan: Not sure why you guys think my simple question not related to ER or unimportant? I asked the question because Alex has talked about this a few times here and also in the instruction manual. I would not be bothered to ask the question if Alex had not insisted that ER should be earthed to minimise current leakage and using the ground screw if using a PS with floating ground. So I simply asked where best to connect the ER ground because my Naim has an unique earth arrangement. Is asking a technical question too much on this forum now? Are we suppose to only ask about ethernet cables or A/B sides here, there were hundreds of them before..... 

[octaviars]

@Ehsu I think the most common way to ground the eR will be to ground it at the protective earth where your PSU is connected (this is how the Mean Well smsp has it's internal -0V connected to ground). 

 

I dont know exactly how Naim does the ground but I think it is a good thing to start with the ground from where the PSU is connected.

The ground and -0V is connected internally in eR and is on the A-side so connecting the ground to something that is connected to the B-side (your streamer) would make a path that might not be so good, at least that is how I think.

[Ehsu]

12 minutes ago, octaviars said:

@Ehsu I think the most common way to ground the eR will be to ground it at the protective earth where your PSU is connected (this is how the Mean Well smsp has it's internal -0V connected to ground). 

 

I dont know exactly how Naim does the ground but I think it is a good thing to start with the ground from where the PSU is connected.

The ground and -0V is connected internally in eR and is on the A-side so connecting the ground to something that is connected to the B-side (your streamer) would make a path that might not be so good, at least that is how I think.

 

 

 

 

@octaviars Thank you so much for your suggestion. I would prefer this as well but was wondering what would UpTone guys recommend. ER user guide suggested ground connection to the audio system which I thought it contradict ER's isolation intention in the Naim ground arrangement. My house power supply is designed with audio system in mind from earth peg to dedicated power spurs. I even have a 3 phase supply into my house and 1 phase is dedicated to audio and visual equipments to keep other household electric pollution away. So I would very much prefer running ER earth to the wall. 

Can I simply connect the other end of earth wire from ER to a power plug ( connect only the earth pin ) and plug into a wall socket ( perhaps the same outlet as PS )?

[octaviars]

2 hours ago, Ehsu said:

Can I simply connect the other end of earth wire from ER to a power plug ( connect only the earth pin ) and plug into a wall socket ( perhaps the same outlet as PS )?

 

Yes that is the way to do it.

 

But if you use the supplied PSU with the etherREGEN you dont have to do anything as the -0V is connected to ground inside. 

 

If you use any other PSU with floating output (-0V not connected to protective earth) you might need to connect the groundscrew to protective earth to get the most out of the filter on the A-side.

 

I have three seperate spurs going to my equipment from the same phase  (I also have three phase in my house). 

 

First goes to my stereo.

Second goes to network equipment (one HD Plex PSU with four rails).

Third goes to network equipment not related to my audio chain.

 

So the eR will act as a isolation between my stereo equipment and the rest of the house. As I might run fiber to eR and only use one rj45 on the A-side to my Roon ROCK NUC the need for ground might not be needed. Se the picture how it will look.

 

I might have overworked it a bit but I work as an electrician so easy to fix for me ☺️

 

 

[Ehsu]

@octaviars I'm so glad to be talking to you and appreciate you sharing your knowledge and ideas here. We have the same concept and a similar setup so your input here is very helpful. However, I will be using all 4 A-side ports because I will connect my second music system and cinema system to it as well.

I dont know why so many audiophile underestimate the importance of power mains and proper system ground. Its the foundation of everything.... My mate is an electrician and audiophile so we have done a lot of listening with different types ( or thickness ) of mains cable and earth wires. We concluded 6mm mains cable is the best in our systems.  Tried to run earth wire in the different direction and used thicker than standard 2mm earth wire and that sucked the life out of music. I was very sceptical about all those things until I tried! 

[octaviars]

1 hour ago, Ehsu said:

However, I will be using all 4 A-side ports because I will connect my second music system and cinema system to it as well.

 

Then I see three options as you will be using more than one RJ45 port on the A-side.

 

1. Use the supplied PSU.

2. Use some other PSU that has the -0V grounded internally if that works better for you.

3. Use a floating PSU and connect a wire from protective earth in the outlet where the PSU is connected to the groundscrew on the eR.

 

Perhaps other talk about our systems can be done via PM so we dont overflow the thread with stuff that @Superdad needs to get rid of

[wizardofoz]

@Superdad Just wondering why the DAC in the diagram appears to be a 5 port Linksys switch...I can understand not favoring one company dac over another but maybe something that is more DAC like would be better.