More Disruptive Schiit (Vidar)

[Mark V.]

I was really interested in the Vidar initially, but this cable issue turns me off, as I experienced similar behavior with another amp. One other issue is that my loudspeakers impedance minimum is approx. 3.5 ohms and I do need the power of the dual mono setup....

[unbalanced output]

Well, on the positive side - if there were any questions if cable lengths matter, there shall be no more

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, unbalanced output said:

Well, on the positive side - if there were any questions if cable lengths matter, there shall be no more

 

Matters audibly? That question has not been answered.

 

This problem has to do with running a 4 ohm speaker with Vidar in monoblock mode which is an unspotted configuration. As a side not, I was able to run Vidar just fine in monoblock mode with my 4 ohm speaker and a 5 foot speaker cable. That cable is a Mogami W3103.

[unbalanced output]

If you consider that an amp that doesn't work equates to an "inaudible difference", then so be it... 

 

If you cared to understand the discussion above, you would have figured out that the cable length by itself tells you nothing in absolute terms as 1m of a certain cable can have the capacitance or impedance of 4-5m of a different one. What are the electrical properties of the cables you have? That could be useful information for Chris' problem.

[Speed Racer]

8 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

If you cared to understand the discussion above, you would have figured out that the cable length by itself tells you nothing in absolute terms as 1m of a certain cable can have the capacitance or impedance of 4-5m of a different one. What are the electrical properties of the cables you have? That could be useful information for Chris' problem.

 

If you would have cared to notice, I included the length and type of cable as a point of reference so he could look up the electrical properties of the cable if he, or anyone else, cared to do so. 

[esldude]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@esldude Any idea what might be happening with my Vidar cable experience?

Typically an audio amp will have parallel R and C with the output to help keep it stable.  I wonder if using the microprocessor to monitor things in the Vidar as was done in the Ragnarok Schiit didn't either use minimal or perhaps no output network.  Therefore you may need a minimum amount of parallel capacitance in the cable you use.  15 ft vs 8 ft plus the MIT Z was wound in a way to have rather high parallel capacitance.  So it fixed your output stability problem.  Without knowing the details though that can only be a guess. 

 

If you want to test it out, get a 100 nanofarad capacitor place it across the leads either at the amp or speaker.  Connect up the 8 ft cables and see if the amp is suddenly happy. 

[esldude]

3 hours ago, unbalanced output said:

 

I estimated by memory from the Foobar volume control, it is by no means a precise figure but I'm willing to test it sometimes when I buy a calibrated mic (will take some time - my budget is compromised for the next three months already). True, I struggle to understand why the difference too but the fact is that it was a lot louder after the change. It was a big surprise to me. I used to be a cable disbeliever until then! Resistive attenuation alone cannot explain the difference, so I humbly speculate it has to do with a somewhat high capacitance of the generic cables - I always read that Naims abhor high capacitance cables. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile

If you have a smartphone, download a SLM app.  Send pink noise across.  See what the difference is.  The smartphone won't respond much to frequencies below 200 hz, but would do to show a difference in volume this large. 

[esldude]

3 hours ago, JSeymour said:

 

The increased current capability is the answer I got from Schiit.  If you are now only driving one channel in mono, versus driving two channels, I would call that increased current capability.  The specs in stereo are 100 watts @ 8 ohms, in mono they are 400 watts @ 8 ohms. 

Read some of my posts early in this thread.  In mono mode Vidar is running each channel out of phase.  So you get twice the voltage, but current capability is the same as one channel in stereo mode.  So no increased current capability.  Twice the voltage will give you 4 times the power up until you run out of current.  That is why the amp is not rated as highly with 4 ohm speakers in mono mode.  You'll run out of current at high power and lower impedances.  You likely will have no problem with 4 ohm speakers, but you'll get no more power from them than you will in stereo mode. 

[bobbmd]

On 7/17/2017 at 2:00 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Seriously. I had to check to make sure it wasn't true.

 

Edit: I know this is just audio and these are inanimate objects, but the Schiit Audio components for such reasonable prices are something worth Schitting yourself about :~)

better than using MIRALAX if you suffer from IBS constipation type

[bobbmd]

On 7/17/2017 at 5:12 PM, unbalanced output said:

 

I haven't heard the Schiits neither I've heard these speakers (googled quickly and indeed they look nice!). However, that does not sound exactly cheap (pun intended). Actually with that money for the amplification one could easily buy a Hegel or Naim. Same for the DAC...

 

Or just get a Focus XD.

 

BUT... not made in USA no Chinese parts

[bobbmd]

On 7/17/2017 at 2:23 PM, gmgraves said:

 

Wow! This is, in my opinion, just what this hobby needs, equipment that actually gives value for money spent. I fully agree that a complete system based around Schiit products: Yggy, Freya, Vidar, Asgard 2 would be the audio bargain of the age! Then spend the rest of your budget on great speakers. How about a pair of Martin-Logan Electro Motions at $2,499/pair or perhaps a pair of Magnepan MG-1.7s or even MG-0.7s !My god, affordable high-end audio? The mind reels. 

Or how about Legacy Audio HD studio monitors- again made in the USA

[bobbmd]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:02 PM, Ralf11 said:

I'll buy you a beer if you do a careful audition/comparison...

Tecate in red can laced with salt and a Mexican limon(poor man's Tequila) or Tres Equis if they still made it again with Mexican limon not lemon

[esldude]

39 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

If you want to test it out, get a 100 nanofarad capacitor place it across the leads either at the amp or speaker.  Connect up the 8 ft cables and see if the amp is suddenly happy. 

Upon further consideration without knowing what Schiit is doing scratch the above idea.

 

It would be safer to put a 1 kohm resistor across the speaker or amplifier leads.  Use at least a 2 watt one.  For permanent installation I would want something more like 10 watts. The idea is the amp may be oscillating at some high frequency like megahertz frequencies and shutting down.  The resistor will damp that oscillation some. 

 

Now some small capacitance value would tune that out of the amp, but a shot in the dark value might not be a good idea.  Would be nice if Jason would give us an idea about how they have the output setup.

[Speed Racer]

I tracked down the specs on the speaker cable I used with Vidar in monoblock mode:

 

Mogami W3103

 

DC Resistance (20°C): 0.0015Ω/Ft

 

Inductance (1kHz, 20°C): 0.18µH/Ft

 

Capacitance (20°C) @Frequency:

 

100Hz: 32.3pF/Ft
1kHz: 28.4pF/Ft
10kHz: 25.3pF/Ft
50kHz: 23.2pF/Ft
100kHz: 22.6pF/Ft

 

Insulation Resistance: 10000 MΩ × m Min. at DC 125V, 20°C
 

[fas42]

31 minutes ago, esldude said:

Now some small capacitance value would tune that out of the amp, but a shot in the dark value might not be a good idea.  Would be nice if Jason would give us an idea about how they have the output setup.

 

Pics of the board here, http://www.schiit.com/products/vidar - intelligent guessing might provide some insights.

[Hoang Nam]

I would love to see some videos about the performance of the Vidar

[unbalanced output]

@Speed Racer thanks, your cable has 3 times the capacitance but half the inductance of Nac A5. That makes sense but shows how length alone doesn't tell you much. @esldude we're not sure if the Vidar needs capacitance or inductance. It is possible that @The Computer Audiophile tried to hook up a cable with low inductance since these cables seem to be quite popular today. Speed Racer's cable has a fairly high capacitance. I have no idea about adding a cap to the cable, 100pF should give more than sufficient capacitance (what if if inductance is missing?).

 

Just plugging in a longer cable (as he did and worked) should be sufficient according to my rudimentary understanding of zobel circuits. 

[unbalanced output]

8 hours ago, esldude said:

If you have a smartphone, download a SLM app.  Send pink noise across.  See what the difference is.  The smartphone won't respond much to frequencies below 200 hz, but would do to show a difference in volume this large. 

 

I thought of this yesterday night. Just assembled my ultrarendu and will setup my new server now, but I'll add this to my to-do list! 

[jmsent]

17 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@esldude Any idea what might be happening with my Vidar cable experience?

 

I suspect a defective amplifier. I'm sorry, but any amplifier that goes into protection based on simple speaker cable parameters has to be considered broken. It's not as though you used anything out of the ordinary. A solid voltage source, which this amplifier claims to be, should be nearly totally immune to small variations in cable capacitance, inductance, resistance, etc. Perhaps there was a short in the amp by the speaker terminals that you cleared by connecting and disconnecting the cables. I'll bet if you go back to the cables you originally tried, it will work fine with those too.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I disagree. I disconnected and reconnected the same two sets of cables multiple times to make sure they caused the shut down. Plus, this also happened on both left and right channels at the same time (with monoblocks).

 

I have a fourth pair of cables on the way as another test. Plus, how can I keep a straight face if I review this system using Monster Cable :~)

[rando]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Plus, how can I keep a straight face if I review this system using Monster Cable :~)

 

Embrace your new reality with a Schiit eating grin.  Review them using Llynyrd Skynyrd's "Free Bird", Insane Clown Posse, and...

 

 

 

I'll accept my ban for this post without question and offer thanks to everyone who made the time I spent here enjoyable.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Too good @rando

[jmsent]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I disagree. I disconnected and reconnected the same two sets of cables multiple times to make sure they caused the shut down. Plus, this also happened on both left and right channels at the same time (with monoblocks).

 

I have a fourth pair of cables on the way as another test. Plus, how can I keep a straight face if I review this system using Monster Cable :~)

But if this is indeed what's going on, and those cables are operating normally (not shorted) then this raises serious red flags about the design of these amps. Knowing who these engineers are, I find that  hard to believe.  Good grief, the industry has  only been designing solid state amplification since the mid 1960's. Thousands of products  have been made that are unconditionally stable into virtually any load. Something this modern and with this engineering pedigree shouldn't be acting like this. Either you've got a bad amp or Schiit needs to go back to the drawing boards.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, jmsent said:

But if this is indeed what's going on, and those cables are operating normally (not shorted) then this raises serious red flags about the design of these amps. Knowing who these engineers are, I find that  hard to believe.  Good grief, the industry has  only been designing solid state amplification since the mid 1960's. Thousands of products  have been made that are unconditionally stable into virtually any load. Something this modern and with this engineering pedigree shouldn't be acting like this. Either you've got a bad amp or Schiit needs to go back to the drawing boards.

 

Or my high end cables have an issue. 

[Speed Racer]

2 hours ago, jmsent said:

But if this is indeed what's going on, and those cables are operating normally (not shorted) then this raises serious red flags about the design of these amps. Knowing who these engineers are, I find that  hard to believe.  Good grief, the industry has  only been designing solid state amplification since the mid 1960's. Thousands of products  have been made that are unconditionally stable into virtually any load. Something this modern and with this engineering pedigree shouldn't be acting like this. Either you've got a bad amp or Schiit needs to go back to the drawing boards.

 

Relax. The Naim NAC A5 speaker cable used is designed to be used with Naim amps which has some special requirements. I bought Mogami W3103 cable without a thought to the specs and it works just fine.