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More Disruptive Schiit (Vidar)


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9 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

This is an example of where theory is irrelevant in practice. No one, I don't care how "golden" your ears are, will hear a difference.

Totally agree, we listen to the music and feel it by oneself, not to bring anything to be measured by any machine or devices which is our ears can't hear any differences. 

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@JSeymour Not only in case the cable length differences are extreme, but some amps in particular are very sensitive to cables impedances and capacitances - especially the ones which have weak zobel circuits or don't have them at all (eg Naim). In those amps you can definitely tell apart the effect of a few meters of cables.

 

This circuit stabilises the amp under certain circumstances, but the side effect is that it's always an additional load to the amp in series with the cables and coils. Even when you don't hear a difference normally, you're making the amp channels to work under different loads.

 

What is typically done is to have the cables of both lengths and cleverly pack the shorter throw (never coil it).

 

@Hoang Nam, don't look so critically at the rated power of amp and speakers. As Crenca said, most of the time the continuous power is not used, but the peak power is still important. However, there is no objective simple way to quantify this. How much peak power will you need and for how long time? You don't know, and the amp will provide what it is able to - after that it will sag. As for volume control, it is the gain that is important - so different sources will again have different impacts. With two amps it can become marginal, therefore you should be well satisfied with the volume control with one amp before going to the second imo. 

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1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

 

This is an example of where theory is irrelevant in practice. No one, I don't care how "golden" your ears are, will hear a difference.

 

Disagree. That the characteristic does not show in some equipment doesn't imply it doesn't exist or is never important. You must prove that this is never important before making such claim, and surely it is sometimes important even for cables of common domestic lengths. 

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10 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

@JSeymour Not only in case the cable length differences are extreme, but some amps in particular are very sensitive to cables impedances and capacitances - especially the ones which have weak zobel circuits or don't have them at all (eg Naim). In those amps you can definitely tell apart the effect of a few meters of cables.

 

This circuit stabilises the amp under certain circumstances, but the side effect is that it's always an additional load to the amp in series with the cables and coils. Even when you don't hear a difference normally, you're making the amp channels to work under different loads.

 

What is typically done is to have the cables of both lengths and cleverly pack the shorter throw (never coil it).

 

@Hoang Nam, don't look so critically at the rated power of amp and speakers. As Crenca said, most of the time the continuous power is not used, but the peak power is still important. However, there is no objective simple way to quantify this. How much peak power will you need and for how long time? You don't know, and the amp will provide what it is able to - after that it will sag. As for volume control, it is the gain that is important - so different sources will again have different impacts. With two amps it can become marginal, therefore you should be well satisfied with the volume control with one amp before going to the second imo. 

Thanks, I will go with 01 Vidar first, and see how. If not satisfied yet, I will go for the 2nd one. But how to measure our satisfaction if we don't have a chance to try both options in order to compare. It's hard, isn't it?

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15 hours ago, unbalanced output said:

 

Don't do this. Speaker cable lengths should be kept the same. Mismatching capacitance and inductance between both sides will change the loads on the amps and will make both sides to perform differently. 

You have any data or studies (links) to support this.  And what distance causes problems.  I have one run 4 feet and the other 10feet , speakers  91dB/2.83V/m  seem to operate and sound just fine, 14ga speaker cable.  I would like to read the data sheets.  Thanks

The Truth Is Out There

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1 hour ago, mav52 said:

You have any data or studies (links) to support this.  And what distance causes problems.  I have one run 4 feet and the other 10feet , speakers  91dB/2.83V/m  seem to operate and sound just fine, 14ga speaker cable.  I would like to read the data sheets.  Thanks

 

As I said, potential differences will be very equipment specific. I can only quote from Naim, who don't use zobel circuits. They are very strict on having the following cable spec for most of their amps - note the minimum length, which guarantees a minimum inductance for the cables. Additionally you should use their strange connectors for mechanical reasons:

 

1.3 - 1.5microHenries per metre
MAX 20picoFarads per metre 
About 25milliOhms per meter (loop) 
MIN Length 3.5 metres 

 

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10 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

 

As I said, potential differences will be very equipment specific. I can only quote from Naim, who don't use zobel circuits. They are very strict on having the following cable spec for most of their amps - note the minimum length, which guarantees a minimum inductance for the cables. Additionally you should use their strange connectors for mechanical reasons:

 

1.3 - 1.5microHenries per metre
MAX 20picoFarads per metre 
About 25milliOhms per meter (loop) 
MIN Length 3.5 metres 

 

 

I read that but then I read this http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-length-differences-do-they-matter

 

I guess the ears do decide.  Naim does specify equal lengths, and to not coil the extra length cable

The Truth Is Out There

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I know this link. The error is they only think about attenuation and don't consider the effect of the cable load on the amp (like of every amp would be perfect). If they what they write was true, you could have one cable 20m longer than the other and just slightly compensate the balance. Reality is, that's not true. I started with a generic cable with recommended gauge and length, then switched to the NAC A5 - according to these guys the attenuation should be the same, reality is that the A5 was louder by more than a dozen dBs. I was astonished.

 

Ps. I remember Naim don't put a constraint on the maximum cable throw, their concern is if lengths are too short or different. If remember correctly, they say that for more than 20m one may need their more powerful models.

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19 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

I know this link. The error is they only think about attenuation and don't consider the effect of the cable load on the amp (like of every amp would be perfect). If they what they write was true, you could have one cable 20m longer than the other and just slightly compensate the balance. Reality is, that's not true. I started with a generic cable with recommended gauge and length, then switched to the NAC A5 - according to these guys the attenuation should be the same, reality is that the A5 was louder by more than a dozen dBs. I was astonished.

 

Ps. I remember Naim don't put a constraint on the maximum cable throw, their concern is if lengths are too short or different. If remember correctly, they say that for more than 20m one may need their more powerful models.

I remember reading Richard Dane noted about Naim amps, " minimum of 3.5 metres of NACA4 or NACA5 cable is required – although the optimum is around 5-10 metres. "

The Truth Is Out There

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4 minutes ago, JSeymour said:

The main point I am deriving from this discussion of different cables lengths is that I would never want to own a stereo amp that would be impacted by a cable length difference.  Of course, if I stay with mono amps, then it would never be an issue.

 

As a consumer, yes. As an audiophile, not really. Cables and zobels are directly in the signal path and zobels do degrade the amp performance - that's the very reason not to use them. I don't know which other brands take this approach though. 

 

@mav52, correct. Some Naim diehards do use 10m cables and dress them in the most exquisite ways. That's way beyond what I'm willing to do - however I think the example does illustrate the point the cables may affect the difference. If you want to be pedantic about cables you could always match the impedances and capacitances by selecting cables with different electrical properties to match (or just forget about all this and be happy). From what I have investigated, this is possible if one is not looking specifically to minimise either capacitance or impedance, however that is a bit off topic.

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Speaking of speaker cables and Vidar.

 

I have a question for those in the know. I have no clue what's going on, but I found something that works. Please help me figure out what's up.

 

When I first connected the Vidars to my TAD CR1s, the amps went into protection mode within seconds (after outputting fairly loud distortion). 

 

After Jason from Schitt offered some suggestions, I tried different speaker cables. Still had the same problem. Then I pulled some speaker cables out of storage, connected them to the Vidars, and they worked perfect. 

 

  1. First brand of cables was high end with spades and roughly 8 feet.
  2. Second brand of cables was high end with bananas and roughly 8 feet.
  3. Third, and working, brand of cables is Monster Cable Z Series from the late 1990s, covered in dust from storage, with banana plugs, about 15 feet in length.

 

Question: Anyone have a clue why the 3rd pair of cables solved my issue? Jason said the Vidars are great at finding system issues.

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I had a similar experience.  I had a pair of Signal Cable Ultras (6 ft & 15 ft) that I used with a Class D Audio SDS-470 with no issues.  I first replaced it with a single Vidar with no issues.  But when I went to 2 Vidars, I could not get either of them to work with the 15 ft. cable.  So I temporarily rigged up bare wire and it worked. 

 

I used a Fluke meter at work and the 15 ft cable had a very small amount of leakage between the 2 wires.  Not enough to be a short, but enough to register on the meter.  My other cable (6 ft) showed nothing.  Nick, Schiit tech support, through a series of emails, said that the Vidar in Mono will show greater sensitivity to cable issues due to the increased current capability.  Nick was very helpful and patient.  In the meantime, I have put in another 6 ft. Signal Cable Ultra with no problems.  I did not detect any damage in the longer cable, but it went along the front of my fireplace. So I suspect I dropped a log on it at some point.

 

If you can, test the cables with a meter.  You may find the results very interesting.

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4 hours ago, unbalanced output said:

I know this link. The error is they only think about attenuation and don't consider the effect of the cable load on the amp (like of every amp would be perfect). If they what they write was true, you could have one cable 20m longer than the other and just slightly compensate the balance. Reality is, that's not true. I started with a generic cable with recommended gauge and length, then switched to the NAC A5 - according to these guys the attenuation should be the same, reality is that the A5 was louder by more than a dozen dBs. I was astonished.

 

Ps. I remember Naim don't put a constraint on the maximum cable throw, their concern is if lengths are too short or different. If remember correctly, they say that for more than 20m one may need their more powerful models.

Frankly I do not believe this.  You changed cables and volume changed by more than 12 db?  How did you measure this volume change? Naim NAC A5 are 6 gauge cable, but more than 12 db doesn't make sense.

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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46 minutes ago, JSeymour said:

I had a similar experience.  I had a pair of Signal Cable Ultras (6 ft & 15 ft) that I used with a Class D Audio SDS-470 with no issues.  I first replaced it with a single Vidar with no issues.  But when I went to 2 Vidars, I could not get either of them to work with the 15 ft. cable.  So I temporarily rigged up bare wire and it worked. 

 

I used a Fluke meter at work and the 15 ft cable had a very small amount of leakage between the 2 wires.  Not enough to be a short, but enough to register on the meter.  My other cable (6 ft) showed nothing.  Nick, Schiit tech support, through a series of emails, said that the Vidar in Mono will show greater sensitivity to cable issues due to the increased current capability.  Nick was very helpful and patient.  In the meantime, I have put in another 6 ft. Signal Cable Ultra with no problems.  I did not detect any damage in the longer cable, but it went along the front of my fireplace. So I suspect I dropped a log on it at some point.

 

If you can, test the cables with a meter.  You may find the results very interesting.

Not disputing what you are saying, but the Mono should not have increased current capability. 

 

Also makes me wonder if the Vidar has the same monitoring circuit that alters the bias which caused trouble when JA tested their amps and suffered growing distortion at sustained signal levels.  Seems this same circuit may be getting tripped too easily if the cable load is not exactly what the Vidar needs to see.  Schiit should probably set out some parameters for cable if that is the case, though with the variability in speakers that would be difficult. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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1 hour ago, esldude said:

Frankly I do not believe this.  You changed cables and volume changed by more than 12 db?  How did you measure this volume change? Naim NAC A5 are 6 gauge cable, but more than 12 db doesn't make sense.

 

 

I estimated by memory from the Foobar volume control, it is by no means a precise figure but I'm willing to test it sometimes when I buy a calibrated mic (will take some time - my budget is compromised for the next three months already). True, I struggle to understand why the difference too but the fact is that it was a lot louder after the change. It was a big surprise to me. I used to be a cable disbeliever until then! Resistive attenuation alone cannot explain the difference, so I humbly speculate it has to do with a somewhat high capacitance of the generic cables - I always read that Naims abhor high capacitance cables. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile It could be helpful if you could share some of the following info: impedance and capacitance of the cables you used; is the Vidar sensitive to high capacitance cables, and does the Vidar have a zobel circuit at the output. It could be that the Vidar is getting unstable and switching off - if I understand the speakers you tried to use are 4 Ohms?

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2 hours ago, Mark V. said:

Could also be the case that the amp is overly sensitive to capacitance in the speaker cable. I had this once with a diy amp module. That was no fun... I would like to use the LS cables I own, which worked fine with lots of other amps.

 

Nick at Schiit said that cable issues are more common with shorter, not longer cables.  So I am a bit baffled that a 10 ga. 15 ft. cable would cause a capacitance issue, but not the short one.  I attribute it to cable damage as the meter showed crosstalk where there should have been none with a signal from a battery operated meter.

 

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Not disputing what you are saying, but the Mono should not have increased current capability. 

 

Also makes me wonder if the Vidar has the same monitoring circuit that alters the bias which caused trouble when JA tested their amps and suffered growing distortion at sustained signal levels.  Seems this same circuit may be getting tripped too easily if the cable load is not exactly what the Vidar needs to see.  Schiit should probably set out some parameters for cable if that is the case, though with the variability in speakers that would be difficult. 

 

The increased current capability is the answer I got from Schiit.  If you are now only driving one channel in mono, versus driving two channels, I would call that increased current capability.  The specs in stereo are 100 watts @ 8 ohms, in mono they are 400 watts @ 8 ohms. 

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6 hours ago, mav52 said:

I remember reading Richard Dane noted about Naim amps, " minimum of 3.5 metres of NACA4 or NACA5 cable is required – although the optimum is around 5-10 metres. "

 

True, Naim diehards tend to stick to 10 meters - they all have big shelves full of Naim black boxes and big and luxurious living rooms, I obliged to 3,5 meters even though it is not really a must for the integrateds but I refused to go any longer than the minimum necessary. I say refused bcause now I realise that longer cables would have allowed me to push the rack somewhere far away from the speakers - and that's something that Naim also advocates for. 

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5 minutes ago, JSeymour said:

 

Nick at Schiit said that cable issues are more common with shorter, not longer cables.  So I am a bit baffled that a 10 ga. 15 ft. cable would cause a capacitance issue, but not the short one.  I attribute it to cable damage as the meter showed crosstalk where there should have been none with a signal from a battery operated meter.

 

 

If issues are common with short cables, that's one more clue that capacitance and impedance are to blame. Perhaps Chris chose cables with fairly high capacitance per meter to begin with? Just speculating... I've found cables that cables' capacitantes easily vary by a factor of 4-5. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, unbalanced output said:

 

If issues are common with short cables, that's one more clue that capacitance and impedance are to blame. Perhaps Chris chose cables with fairly high capacitance per meter to begin with? Just speculating... I've found cables that cables' capacitantes easily vary by a factor of 4-5. 

 

 

And I was told that mono mode would show these issues more readily.  It would be interesting if Chris tried the cables that did not work with a single Vidar.

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