More Disruptive Schiit (Vidar)

[JSeymour]

Seeing the return charge was only $35 and I have inexpensive shipping from my work, I bought 2 Vidars.  I tested first with a single Vidar (replacing a Class D Audio SDS-470) and it easily outclassed it in every category.  But using 2 Vidars was even better driving my Spatial M3 Triode Masters.  The 2nd Vidar was not returned.  The main improvements heard over my old amp were increased soundstage, particularly in depth and clarity.  The leading edge of percussive instruments (drums, acoustic guitars, etc.) really stand out.

 

The other benefit of 2 Vidars is each one only gets warm.  You can leave your hand on top of it.  My initial testing with a single Vidar went for several hours and it got hot enough I could not leave my hand on top of it.

[Hoang Nam]

On 7/29/2017 at 6:43 AM, Speed Racer said:

 

What? Vidar is a 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 200 watts per channel at 4 ohms. It has no problem driving 4 ohm high efficiency speakers at any volume I can stand. Vidar has no problem with bass on my setup and my Tekton Design Double Impact speakers do go low!

 

Oh, I did run my Vidar in monoblock mode and at any volume I could stand it worked great. Again bass was not a problem. 

Please do a little more review on Vidar, in terms of stereo and mono. How about the high, low frequency, the soundstage and the details. Please enlighten me because I am in the middle of choosing stereo or mono block Vidar

[JSeymour]

Everything that I heard (quickly described in my previous post) as an improvement over my previous amp when using a single Vidar was slightly better when using 2.  I would not say the any frequency improvement alone would justify going mono.  The improvements I heard are first the increased soundstage.  Performer and instrument placement is fantastic.  Second, even though the clarity with one amp is excellent, there is a subtle increased ease to the sound with two amps.  Possibly they stay in Class A more.  Clarity =  realness.

 

There are other factors that convinced me to keep both.  When using 1 Vidar at my normal volume (low 80 db) I got the volume knob past 2 o'clock.  Using 2 Vidars, the volume knob is a little before 12 o'clock.  I want plenty of headroom for the gatherings I have when the system is pushed to almost painful levels.  The guys like to come over to play music at levels they can't do at home.  That goes along with the heat factor. 

 

The last factor is I have consistently read that the best setup is to go balanced to mono amps so the amps are closer to your speakers allowing for shorter speaker cables.  One speaker is close to my rack, so those cables stayed the same (2 ft. XLR, 6 ft. speaker).  But for the other one I put in a 15 ft. XLR and replaced the old 15 ft. speaker cable with a 6 ft.  I could have gone shorter, but I want slack to play with speaker placement.

 

I hope this was helpful.

[Hoang Nam]

14 minutes ago, JSeymour said:

Everything that I heard (quickly described in my previous post) as an improvement over my previous amp when using a single Vidar was slightly better when using 2.  I would not say the any frequency improvement alone would justify going mono.  The improvements I heard are first the increased soundstage.  Performer and instrument placement is fantastic.  Second, even though the clarity with one amp is excellent, there is a subtle increased ease to the sound with two amps.  Possibly they stay in Class A more.  Clarity =  realness.

 

There are other factors that convinced me to keep both.  When using 1 Vidar at my normal volume (low 80 db) I got the volume knob past 2 o'clock.  Using 2 Vidars, the volume knob is a little before 12 o'clock.  I want plenty of headroom for the gatherings I have when the system is pushed to almost painful levels.  The guys like to come over to play music at levels they can't do at home.  That goes along with the heat factor. 

 

The last factor is I have consistently read that the best setup is to go balanced to mono amps so the amps are closer to your speakers allowing for shorter speaker cables.  One speaker is close to my rack, so those cables stayed the same (2 ft. XLR, 6 ft. speaker).  But for the other one I put in a 15 ft. XLR and replaced the old 15 ft. speaker cable with a 6 ft.  I could have gone shorter, but I want slack to play with speaker placement.

 

I hope this was helpful.

Thank you for your review. For me speaker cables and interconnectors are not the issue. I also prefer XLR (coz currently I am using XLR). So the advantages of using 2 Vidars (over 1 Vidar), let me conclude are:

- reduce heat

- better clarity

- more powerful (in terms of volume)

Am I right?

Anything else you want to add?

[JSeymour]

Don't forget the Increased sound stage, particularly depth.  But you need speakers that can take advantage of this. My Spatial M3 Triode Masters are open baffle so their sound stage is different than box speakers.  My speakers are toed in with the outer edge 58" and the inner edge 53" from the back wall.  They are 7.5 ft. apart.

[crenca]

6 minutes ago, JSeymour said:

Don't forget the Increased sound stage, particularly depth.  But you need speakers that can take advantage of this. My Spatial M3 Triode Masters are open baffle so their sound stage is different than box speakers.  My speakers are toed in with the outer edge 58" and the inner edge 53" from the back wall.  They are 7.5 ft. apart.

 

At 16 ohm nominal, your speakers should (unless they have a nasty dip, particularly at frequency(s) with vigorous musical energy) never challenge the Vidar's 8 ohm nominal recommendation in mono mode.

 

However, most of us don't have such speakers...

[Hoang Nam]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

At 16 ohm nominal, your speakers should (unless they have a nasty dip, particularly at frequency(s) with vigorous musical energy) never challenge the Vidar's 8 ohm nominal recommendation in mono mode.

 

However, most of us don't have such speakers...

Thanks for the info, mine are Spendor A6, 8 Ohms

[crenca]

3 minutes ago, Hoang Nam said:

Thanks for the info, mine are Spendor A6, 8 Ohms

 

 

Well, Stereophile measured the D7 here:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/spendor-d7-loudspeaker-measurements

 

Even though it is nominally rated at 8 ohm by Spendor, to an amp I would argue it looks more like a 6 ohm speaker.  Of course, this is nothing new as Andrew Jones and others have argued manufactures regularly rate their speakers by...who knows what standard.

 

I just did a quick google search - you might spend some time and see if anyone has measured your A6's...

[Hoang Nam]

17 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

 

Well, Stereophile measured the D7 here:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/spendor-d7-loudspeaker-measurements

 

Even though it is nominally rated at 8 ohm by Spendor, to an amp I would argue it looks more like a 6 ohm speaker.  Of course, this is nothing new as Andrew Jones and others have argued manufactures regularly rate their speakers by...who knows what standard.

 

I just did a quick google search - you might spend some time and see if anyone has measured your A6's...

If the A6's really 8 Ohms as they say, and I see their specs show the RMS output power is 200W, by running 2 Vidars is way too much power for the speakers? Coz running as mono the Vidars give 400w into 8 ohms.

[crenca]

8 minutes ago, Hoang Nam said:

If the A6's really 8 Ohms as they say, and I see their specs show the RMS output power is 200W, by running 2 Vidars is way too much power for the speakers? Coz running as mono the Vidars give 400w into 8 ohms.

 

Well, it depends how hard you turn the volume control - and even then it is much debated.

 

Most around here would say (at least I think they would - I would) that you would rather have too many watts than too few.  In the vast majority of cases, when a speaker is "blown" it is because a clipped, square wave was sent to the speaker - which means too few watts were involved.

 

I suppose that if you have a 200w RMS rated speaker and you purchase some mega-amp, and you consistently play at volume levels where the speaker is actually consistently getting more than 200 watts, then it would be a concern.  However, this would also mean you are deaf, using your speakers in an outdoor arena, or some other strange situation.

 

Fact is most of the time you are listening to your rig in a domestic situation your using less than a 1 watt, or a few at most.  In a very "dynamic" musical passage where say a 100 or 200 are actually needed, it is better to have a robust amp that is capable of delivering the current...

[Hoang Nam]

21 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Well, it depends how hard you turn the volume control - and even then it is much debated.

 

Most around here would say (at least I think they would - I would) that you would rather have too many watts than too few.  In the vast majority of cases, when a speaker is "blown" it is because a clipped, square wave was sent to the speaker - which means too few watts were involved.

 

I suppose that if you have a 200w RMS rated speaker and you purchase some mega-amp, and you consistently play at volume levels where the speaker is actually consistently getting more than 200 watts, then it would be a concern.  However, this would also mean you are deaf, using your speakers in an outdoor arena, or some other strange situation.

 

Fact is most of the time you are listening to your rig in a domestic situation your using less than a 1 watt, or a few at most.  In a very "dynamic" musical passage where say a 100 or 200 are actually needed, it is better to have a robust amp that is capable of delivering the current...

I actually never turn the volume (my previous amp is Cambridge CXA80) up to 11 o'clock. I understand all that u said but just want to be reassured (coz I have never tried mono block at that much power)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Connected the complete Schiit system to my 4 ohm rated TAD CR1s (measurements) this morning and have been listening ever since. Good stuff.

 

Sonore Signature Rendu SE > Yggdrasil > Freya > Monoblock Vidars > CR1s. 

 

[Hoang Nam]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Connected the complete Schiit system to my 4 ohm rated TAD CR1s (measurements) this morning and have been listening ever since. Good stuff.

 

Sonore Signature Rendu SE > Yggdrasil > Freya > Monoblock Vidars > CR1s. 

 

I'm happy to hear that (convinced me to purchase the 2nd Vidar)

[crenca]

10 minutes ago, Hoang Nam said:

I actually never turn the volume (my previous amp is Cambridge CXA80) up to 11 o'clock. I understand all that u said but just want to be reassured (coz I have never tried mono block at that much power)

 

Of course, 11 o'clock on one amp/pre amp is not the same as another.

 

To be objective, you will have to measure the SPL at your normal listening position, both an "average" and typical peak SPL.  Then you would have to have a reliable measurement of your speakers sensitivity and impedance curve, and then calculate the actual draw on the amp in watts.

 

Most of us just get a robust amp with more watts than we will theoretically need.  With most consumer speakers in the 85-88 db sensitivity range and most audiophile amps (tube amps are another discussion for various reasons) able to handle a real 4 ohm load and delivering plenty of watts, it is rarely an issue.  

 

As Chris reports the Vidar's are doing fine even though he has hooked up a 4ohm speaker to an 8 ohm nominal rated amp (in mono mode).  However, he even at "loud" domestic SPL's he probably (maybe) is not pushing the amps into the red zone...we will see when he reports more.

[Hoang Nam]

6 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Of course, 11 o'clock on one amp/pre amp is not the same as another.

 

To be objective, you will have to measure the SPL at your normal listening position, both an "average" and typical peak SPL.  Then you would have to have a reliable measurement of your speakers sensitivity and impedance curve, and then calculate the actual draw on the amp in watts.

 

Most of us just get a robust amp with more watts than we will theoretically need.  With most consumer speakers in the 85-88 db sensitivity range and most audiophile amps (tube amps are another discussion for various reasons) able to handle a real 4 ohm load and delivering plenty of watts, it is rarely an issue.  

 

As Chris reports the Vidar's are doing fine even though he has hooked up a 4ohm speaker to an 8 ohm nominal rated amp (in mono mode).  However, he even at "loud" domestic SPL's he probably (maybe) is not pushing the amps into the red zone...we will see when he reports more.

So, 2 Vidars much better than just one?

[crenca]

Just now, Hoang Nam said:

So, 2 Vidars much better than just one?

 

The only sound bite answer possible is "it depends"...

[Hoang Nam]

49 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

The only sound bite answer possible is "it depends"...

Poor thing is that I can't try both options before considering to purchase

[unbalanced output]

6 hours ago, JSeymour said:

The last factor is I have consistently read that the best setup is to go balanced to mono amps so the amps are closer to your speakers allowing for shorter speaker cables.  One speaker is close to my rack, so those cables stayed the same (2 ft. XLR, 6 ft. speaker).  But for the other one I put in a 15 ft. XLR and replaced the old 15 ft. speaker cable with a 6 ft.  I could have gone shorter, but I want slack to play with speaker placement.

 

I hope this was helpful.

 

Don't do this. Speaker cable lengths should be kept the same. Mismatching capacitance and inductance between both sides will change the loads on the amps and will make both sides to perform differently. 

[JSeymour]

My old setup had a 6 ft. and a 15 ft. pair of speaker cables.  My current setup has speaker cables that are the same length - 6 ft. 

 

I have read that speaker length differences have to be extreme; longer than anything you might see in a home stereo system before any capacitance or inductance issues would appear.

[bgoc]

11 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Connected the complete Schiit system to my 4 ohm rated TAD CR1s (measurements) this morning and have been listening ever since. Good stuff.

 

Sonore Signature Rendu SE > Yggdrasil > Freya > Monoblock Vidars > CR1s. 

 

 

[bgoc]

Chris

Hopefully you will give us a small initial impressions review.

[opus101]

7 hours ago, JSeymour said:

I have read that speaker length differences have to be extreme; longer than anything you might see in a home stereo system before any capacitance or inductance issues would appear.

 

Quite so, given that an amp's output impedance is very low and cable inductance is also rather low. But there is a secondary issue - that of the cable's impedance (both resistive and inductive/capacitive). Seeing as speakers aren't ohmic loads all speaker cables are going to introduce distortion roughly proportional to their length. I myself prefer not to have considerably increased distortion on one channel compared to the other.

[Speed Racer]

38 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

Quite so, given that an amp's output impedance is very low and cable inductance is also rather low. But there is a secondary issue - that of the cable's impedance (both resistive and inductive/capacitive). Seeing as speakers aren't ohmic loads all speaker cables are going to introduce distortion roughly proportional to their length. I myself prefer not to have considerably increased distortion on one channel compared to the other.

 

You are going to have show me how this even discernible in the lengths we are likely to be dealing with. For example, let's say one speaker cable is 5 feet and the other is 15 feet and we are using Mogami W3103. Explain how there is going to be an audible difference.

[opus101]

Just now, Speed Racer said:

 

You are going to have show me how this even discernible in the lengths we are likely to be dealing with. For example, let's say one speaker cable is 5 feet and the other is 15 feet and we are using Mogami W3103. Explain how there is going to be an audible difference.

 

I'm not interested in showing you its audibility. Its measureable and therefore it exists. Individuals can decide for themselves whether it matters, subjectively.

[Speed Racer]

43 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

I'm not interested in showing you its audibility. Its measureable and therefore it exists. Individuals can decide for themselves whether it matters, subjectively.

 

This is an example of where theory is irrelevant in practice. No one, I don't care how "golden" your ears are, will hear a difference.