Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[firedog]

6 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Are you really so scared that some bit of poor engineering will be revealed by Amir's measurements that you have to refuse a sale? LOL. Is your faith in the ISO so weak that you have attempt to hide it? Or do you just insist on a belief in your magic dust?  Although Amir would never let any personal animosity to bias his results, I'd think you'd want a reviewer to look into things without throwing him personal insults before hand.

A very sad and lame approach from a supposed engineer Alex

I think it is pretty clear that: a) Amir has an agenda which colors his work; b) isn't actually competent to do the measurements properly.

He also did let his biases influence what he wrote in his original evaluation of the Regen.

As Alex has said he would be fine giving one to other reviewers who do measurements, your post seems to have no basis.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, plissken said:

Amir is an EE. He's also the VP that was in charge of replacing kmixer in XP with WASAPI in Vista/7.  He's wrote a few college texts on the Unix Operating System also. 

 

Here's another thing: Unless Uptone has purchased any new analysis gear, Amir is also better situated to actually bench these devices and post the measured output. This is something the manufacturer should be doing. 

 

He's been benching DAC's (iFi, Behringer, Schitt) and honest to god: If you have a problem with his measurements, go get a PHd. in EE, drop $20-25,000 on an Audio Precision analyzer and prove him wrong. 

I think the people from iFi explained quite well about how difficult it is to do proper measurements and how Amir's method doesn't meet the bill.  Doesn't have anything to do with having a degree, and having the Analyzer doesn't 

mean you know how to use it properly.

I'm sure you will disagree  We will agree to disagree. 

[firedog]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Is it worth noting he can get clean measurements from some other gear?  Is it worth noting some other people have gotten similar measurements?  Is it all a conspiracy?

I don't believe in a conspiracy. 

Your other two questions don't prove anything, no matter what the answer.

 

I do know that Amir's initial measurements of the Regen (paraphrasing his own words) were "results that couldn't be right", yet he rushed to publish them anyway. He had to withdraw them.

That, first, give me doubts about his competence. But even allowing for that, his rush to publish something he knew wasn't right shows me that he has an agenda.

Beyond that, I think iFi explained well why it isn't so simple to do proper measurements. Having one accurate result doesn't prove anything about you subsequent results. 

Bottom line: you apparently have faith in him and his methods, I don't.

[firedog]

33 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

No it doesn't have anything to do with knowing what your doing or talking about. And certainly nothing to do with having the best and most applicable measuring equipment. I don't think Superdad could show him how to use the AP since he doesn't even own one.  

Are you serious Dog 

Like I said, having the degree and the piece of equipment don't prove you know how to use it properly to get real results. Please tell me how this is an incorrect statement. 

[firedog]

20 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Nothing like Amir to bring out the worst of the rif raf and mentally disturbed 

Can't blame Amir for that. I may not be a fan, but he certainly maintains a level of civility and isn't afraid to let even harsh critics post at his site. On most forums they take stuff like that down.

Amir isn't responsible for the behavior of posters.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

It doesn't matter if Amir is the biggest jerk to ever walk the face of the earth. By refusing to sell him a device, Alex still looks like he is hiding something. I can see three possible reasons for this refusal:

1. Alex knows it's a scam and is afraid he'll be found out.
2. Alex has no confidence in his product and is afraid it will be shown useless.
3. Alex is a petty, vindictive dick.

I'd also like to point out that the approved reviewers who'd be permitted to measure the device are known for never publishing a negative review. Even when the measured performance is questionable, they find some way to praise the product.

Mansr-

You are an intelligent guy, so surely you can consider the additional possibility that Alex doesn't trust Amir (with at least some reason, whether you accept the reasoning or not) to do objective work. 

 

Vindictiive? Actually your post sounds like you have an axe to grind against Alex: or why else write a post like that?

 

As far as the other reviewers, I've many times seen qustionable measurements resulting from them, and being noted as such. Alex also noted he doesn't care if someone else sends an ISO Regen to anyone they want, including Amir. Just doesn't want to sell him one. So none of your three reasons seem close to reality. Nor close to the Alex that we are familiar with on this forum, nor the one familiar to seemingly all of his customers, excepting possibly Amir.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Funny, when John Atkinson measured the Regen it actually measured WORSE then no regen. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Findings that corroborate Amir and some others. Who has the agenda here? 

I never made any negative comment about JA or his measurements. In my comment above about "questionable measurements" I was referring to the quote from Mansr, meaning I've several times seen these reviewers publish "questionable" (meaning not good) measurements for a product under review, and note the negative measurements in the results. 

 

Again, as Alex has said he would be willing to send an ISO Regen to JA for review and meansuement, I'm not sure how any of this has anything to do with me having an agenda. 

 

I have my opinions. What "agenda" do you think I have?

[firedog]

35 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Amir came to the same result as JA but Amir is somehow a problem child for it and JA is not. That's the definition of having an agenda Jabbr. 

 

Amir has never name called but he is respectfully vocal. There's a difference. 

 

My bottom line is that Alex said he would blind evaluate his own product and then disappeared. This is egregious compared to anything Amir has said. Alex's reputation is mud to me currently. 

 

First, you are responding to me here, not Jabbr

Agenda- again your point makes no sense. I've read Amir's forum, and his explanations of how he does his work. I've also read criticisms of his work and methods.

I've come to the conclusion that his methods aren't trustworthy and that he seems to have an agenda. You regard him more faorably. We can agree to disagree. Doesn't mean I have an agenda about Amir. Means I have an opinion based on what I've read. It is as legitimite as yours. 

 

I've read Stereophile for years and haven't yet seen any reason I shouldn't trust JA and what he does. So I trust him and not Amir. The fact that they produced similar measurements of the Regen is one data point among many. Not enough to outweigh what I consider to be many negative data points I've come across in getting to my conclusion about Amir.

[firedog]

17 minutes ago, mav52 said:

Got to agree.  If a manufacturer has confidence in their product, what better way than have a third party with the necessary instruments "check it out".   Results are just that, results.

Alex specifically stated he is willing to have third parties evaluate his product and named some of them. 

He said he isn't willing to sell his product to Amir as he feels Amir made out of line (my phrasing) comments about Alex on his forum.  He also said he doesn't care if a third party sends Amir an IsoRegen.

So your point seems moot. 

 

"Results are results". The question remains, how were they arrived at and what do they mean, if anything. The answer to that question isn't always clear 

[firedog]

7 hours ago, plissken said:

 

No, I'm pointing out that a online retailer is simply missing some site basics. I'm not pushing anything off. I tried the Schitt Wyrd because they list the returns policy for each product on the respective page. It didn't do anything for my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 so it went back. Same with the AQ Jitterbug. I'm thinking the DC-1 isn't powered by the USB bus and the C-Media in it can be externally powered. 

 

I wanted to try the Uptone Regen awhile ago but didn't see anything about what happens if it didn't do anything for me. Yes I could have called the manufacturer or just deal with an outfit that makes that conspicuous. 

 

Kudos to Alex/Uptone putting the 30 day MBG on their product page BTW. 

Okay, but I used to deal professionally with lots of SMB web site owners like Alex. Don't forget that these businesses are essentially one man shows, with possibly a very small number of employees who do very specific tasks like assembly. Usually the owner does all the "executive" functions, and in addition helps out with production, transport, shipping, etc. 

 

As odd as it may seem to you and others, having the perfect web site or 100% accurate and up to date web site is the last item in their list of priorities. 

 

Running the actual business and keeping actual customers supplied and happy takes up so much of their time that they rarely get around to web site upkeep. It's easy for outsiders to say that is a mistake, but I think most of these small business owners are very aware of what's most important to keep their business running and cash flow coming in. They correctly see web site maintenance, etc., as a secondary issue. In a perfect world it would be otherwise, but reality doesn't work like that. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Anything carrying the official USB logo is required to conform to the standard specification.

And I guess in some alternate universe that actually happens.

[firedog]

12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

No.  I looked for it and did not find it.  Neither did another person.

 

What makes you think the above, and do you have any connection with the business or principals?

 

They still do not have the guarantee on any other product pages (as of last night).

 

I have no axe to grind in this fight and do not use a USB connection.

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen

 

It's right there in boldface. 

Maybe you are looking at an older version of the page in your browser cache?

[firedog]

11 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Well there ya go.  You should present that as a paper to the AES.  LOL

Jud did exactly the reasonable thing an audiophile should do at home. Blind test comparison to see what sounds better. He had no financial or other incentive at the time to prejudice his results. For someone who constantly flogs here about ofjectivism, your reaction is uncalled for wise-assness.

 

Doubtful anyone, including you, has the ability to do scientifically correct double blind testing at home. Even a perfectly done test just on yourself or a few individuals wouldn't count as scientifically valid, as the test group would be small. 

[firedog]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

A difference found in a double-blind test does not prove an actual improvement. It proves that there is a difference between A and B samples, but which one is better is based on the listener and their preferences and therefore is not objective.  

 

Consider the online survey where the majority of 150 listeners preferred a flawed MP3 lossy compression over the non-lossy original in a blind test using their own equipment. Over 55% of folks with high-end, expensive equipment preferred the sound of the less accurate recording and only 29% preferred the lossless version. Does that mean that MP3 is better?

Today many people are used to listening to mp3 and extremely volume compressed recordings. Quite possible their standard of reference for how things "should" sound is actually something with worse SQ. When they hear a proper sounding recording they think something is missing. Having a high-end system  doesn't take this factor away. 

 

[firedog]

26 minutes ago, Don Hills said:

 

It wasn't a blind test. He knew which of the devices was in circuit at any one time.

No, according to him it was a blind test

[firedog]

Just now, esldude said:

He said it was marked G and M or something like that.  While true he didn't know what those markings meant, it wasn't really even single blind.  I have seen this too many times.  Even the color of a cable as long as you can see it cause people to latch onto perceived differences and place them on one vs the other.  Then you simply can't get those out of your head.  No human can. 

Go back and read his longer explanation in a different post and I think you will see it was blind. He also has repeatedly referred to it as blind, and I don't think he would do that if it wasn't. 

[firedog]

1 minute ago, Don Hills said:

 

 

Firedog, if you mean a different post than this one, quote it. It seems clear enough. He didn't know why they were different, but they were clearly marked. Therefore, it wasn't a blind test.

We need Jud to chime in here. The post you quoted could just as easily be read to mean that the units were marked, but he didn't know which was which when he listened. 

[firedog]

15 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

PS Are there some forms of 'jitter' (digital distortions) that some folks find pleasing?  I wonder.

Yes. Several times I've read of tests showing higher jitter devices sounding better to some people than lower jitter versions. 

There can be euphonic jitter just like there can be euphonic analog distortion.

[firedog]

24 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Is there an correlation of the type of jitter with whether it is euphonic or dys-phonic?

 

21 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Where jitter level was directly correlated to the results?

I'm an AES member but not aware of such studies. Could you please provide a link?

In the studies that I have seen, listeners have been able to tolerate levels of jitter beyond anything found in "audio" devices, playing actual music. I would be very interested in what both you and Jud posited, though I'm unclear if the purported benefit of this audiophile widget is "better" sound via lower jitter?

Yes, directly correlated, but they were just manufacturer reports of listening tests of devices, or less formal measurements - not AES papers- of some "better" sounding devices that turned out to have higher levels of jitter than other similar devices. Don't remember the details, but isn't it known that listeners respond positively to the sound of some types of jitter?

[firedog]

2 hours ago, jtwrace said:

The study that I have from Harman on this is quite amazing but again nearly all people here would pass it off since it's science based.  

I really like Harman's work. They are one of the ew actors in the industry doing real listening tests and trying to understanding how we perceive what we hear.

In fact, now that you mention it, I think one of the places I read about listeners preferring the sound of more jitter in playback was in a Hartman report about testing they'd done. Maybe I can find it.

[firedog]

10 hours ago, mansr said:

Kind of like medieval medical practices. USB gizmos are the audio equivalent of leeches.

Terrible analogy. Leeches are used today in some of the most advanced medical centers of the world. Several therapies using leeches are accepted today

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3757849/

 

Try again.