Synergistic Research: SCAM

[MarcelNL]

philips used a mute circuit in their early CD players, cutting out that circuit was the first mod we made and it had quite an impact...the circuit consisted of a transistor in most CD players, very few used a relay.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

I sometimes wonder about claims of "lowering the noise floor".

 

On another forum, I once mentioned that with no music playing, I could set my system to maximum volume, and hear absolutely nothing, no hum, no buzz, genuinely I could not hear any sound of any kind. So what is this noise floor that people refer to, does it suddenly appear only when music is playing?

 

Yep, it's a dynamic thing. No music, no noise. With music, low level details are masked by the addition of noise; effectively, the say 96dB dynamic range of CD digital is not happening - the detail may still emerge, but is buried in mush; the ear/brain can't descramble it ... you have your classic,"bad recording!", .

 

If you get a system working correctly, all this detail now appears; it's recognised by the brain as being meaningful to the music. It's why I say that I listen to ambitious rigs sometimes, and "half the recording's missing!" - all the subtle cues are just not there, for the mind to recognise.

 

2 hours ago, Confused said:

 

Maybe I am still missing something here, but the more objective types point out that most modern kit has noise levels that are so low that it is essentially beyond the threshold of human hearing. When I try an experiment to establish if this is also true subjectively, I find that indeed it is.

 

Because they're measuring the wrong thing. To bring up a thorny one , the original CD mastering of Led Zep I needs very, very low "noise floor". If you ain't got it, then it can indeed sound a mess, .

[Confused]

2 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Yep, it's a dynamic thing. No music, no noise. With music, low level details are masked by the addition of noise; effectively, the say 96dB dynamic range of CD digital is not happening - the detail may still emerge, but is buried in mush; the ear/brain can't descramble it ... you have your classic,"bad recording!", .

Did you miss the bit when I detailed the results of playing actual music at -60 dBFS?

 

There was very quiet music, and zero noise.

[DrT]

The bottom line to this entire subject is: does it make the sound better? Without analyzing the science (or lack of), how can it be, the price, does it defy logic, what's the physics, it cannot be, etc etc; ...does it sound BETTER? Gordon Rankin heard a noticeable improvement from Mpingo Discs; a small hockey puck looking disc of plastic(?) placed on his 300B amps; and although we've never tried them I don't doubt his ears or his judgement. Mikey from OCD Audio noted an improvement placing rose quartz crystals on his amps; and he has quite a nice system, much experience, and good ears.

There's a lot of things in this world that defy scientific explanation but are very real. What I can definitely attest to is that the soundstage of our system went from merely okay to absolutely huge (from the Vibratron), that we now have more solid & deeper bass (Power Cell SX), and the overall sound is better; cleaner, more natural (Galileo SX & power cords/ICs). I don't think our system or results are so different or unique than other people's. As previously stated, we have no dog in this fight; am a retired surgeon - and not in the audio business; but maybe some of the naysayers on this blog should actually give this stuff a try; there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. 

[Racerxnet]

2 hours ago, DrT said:

The bottom line to this entire subject is: does it make the sound better? Without analyzing the science (or lack of), how can it be, the price, does it defy logic, what's the physics, it cannot be, etc etc; ...does it sound BETTER? Gordon Rankin heard a noticeable improvement from Mpingo Discs; a small hockey puck looking disc of plastic(?) placed on his 300B amps; and although we've never tried them I don't doubt his ears or his judgement. Mikey from OCD Audio noted an improvement placing rose quartz crystals on his amps; and he has quite a nice system, much experience, and good ears.

There's a lot of things in this world that defy scientific explanation but are very real. What I can definitely attest to is that the soundstage of our system went from merely okay to absolutely huge (from the Vibratron), that we now have more solid & deeper bass (Power Cell SX), and the overall sound is better; cleaner, more natural (Galileo SX & power cords/ICs). I don't think our system or results are so different or unique than other people's. As previously stated, we have no dog in this fight; am a retired surgeon - and not in the audio business; but maybe some of the naysayers on this blog should actually give this stuff a try; there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. 

Most idiots who spend large sums of money with confirmation bias have more dollars than sense (cents)! I've seen many people who added all kinds of gizmos looking for the holy grail in reproduction, only to take it out 2 months later and hear no discernable difference. Or possibly the small differences did not satisfy them and liked the former system better after trial. 

 

DrT,

 

I have a 250lbs rock in the yard which will certainly dampen the product under it and the floor as well. I'll sell it to you cheap, you pay the shipping. No science needed in your case.

 

You want to change the sound, change the speakers and room, buy competent components, measure the room to understand it's interaction with your system. Consider the feed and grounding into the audio room, and use some COMMON sense.

[DrT]

Racernetx: Thanks for the sage advice; but as a guy who has been into this hobby for 50+ years, and has owned many Many MANY excellent pieces of audio gear over those years (20+ amps, 30+ speakers, too many cables to recall, easily $1 million total, etc (including $98,000 Magico speakers & $28,000 Audio Note amps)); your veiled insult only demonstrates your ignorance & closed mindedness. You may trust your "COMMON sense" but me, I trust only one thing - my ears. BTW, you keep the rock.

[Racerxnet]

8 minutes ago, DrT said:

Racernetx: Thanks for the sage advice; but as a guy who has been into this hobby for 50+ years, and has owned many Many MANY excellent pieces of audio gear over those years (20+ amps, 30+ speakers, too many cables to recall, easily $1 million total, etc (including $98,000 Magico speakers & $28,000 Audio Note amps)); your veiled insult only demonstrates your ignorance & closed mindedness. You may trust your "COMMON sense" but me, I trust only one thing - my ears. BTW, you keep the rock.

DrT,

 

After spending a million on components, it would seem you are the fool who can't learn what works or not. Maybe you should take the sage advice. If you are in the Huntsville AL area, come on over and I'll entertain you. Golf Cherokee Ridge, listen to my Genesis system, or walk to the water fall from the back cart path. What ever floats your boat is OK with me, and continue to chase the Holy Grail. Some got it together audio wise, and some never will. They like the chase more than the sum of the components and room.

 

Have a great day all. 

[DrT]

Racerxnet; in the fifty years we've been into this, many things have changed. Tube gear went out, and then returned. Transisters were not so good, then got remarkably better. As these improvements developed, we changed too. From hard rock & Klipsches to vocal jazz & Avantgardes. We enjoy trying new & different technologies. Apparently we're not as well versed as you or on par with your Genesis system (some great speakers BTW), but we enjoy the hobby & the journey. One thing we learned, different ears prefer different things in different systems. My friend's Apogee Grands driven by no fewer than 6 big Krells sounds great to him; and torture to us (and we've owned and like Apogees). But tell me, should we bring weapons and have our vaccines in order when visiting Hunts ville? LOL 

[Racerxnet]

Hey DrT,

 

Reminds me of MrT!!

 

Leave the vaccines at home and the weapons. The fastest way to beat an enemy is to make him a friend. It's all good at the end of the day. Natural immunity to all this stuff is far more effective. 😁 You may have seen my posts at WBF in the Genesis sub forum on repairs for the older stuff. We have all been around the block from different perspectives. Keep on truckin...

[botrytis]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:30 PM, DrT said:

Why is a demonstration in which a product is added, then removed, as proof of its effect "snake oil salesman tactics"?? ...and how does a money back guarantee stand with products based on "fairy dust and magic"? In a recent conversation with Gordon Rankin (another I consider a genius for his literal invention of digital audio) he related how Mpingo discs transformed the sound of one of his AXPONA rooms a few years ago. Mpingo discs, Shun Mook monks; ummmm okay ...yet a scientific & educated person like Mr Rankin attests that they do indeed work. Audio is a funny endeavor; it is very subjective (the polar opposite of objective). Two different audio components can scientifically measure the same, yet sound very different. How? Two people listen to the same piece of music and one loves it while the other considers it awful. With Synergistic Research products I merely appreciate what they've done in my system, in my listening room, with my ears. They optimized my system and took it to a much higher level.

BTW, I have no dog in this fight. Am not friends with anyone at SR, don't work in the audio biz, get nothing for my opinion (except attacks from the naysayers). I suspect much of the SR attacks are from those who either cannot afford their products or those that require a scientific explanation before they will accept what their ears are telling them. There is also the law of diminishing returns; a $7000 subwoofer will have a much more profound effect on the listening experience than a $7000 SR Vibratron - (so I suggest buying the Vibratron after you already have the sub...). 

Because 2 seconds is not enough time to judge anything. They are classic sales techniques to trick your brain into hearing more than is actually there.

[botrytis]

Not true about thesis writing, all are based on previous knowledge, hence why they have a literature review, as that ties back to previous research. I should know as I have wrote 2 Theses in my time as I have an MS and a PhD.

 

Also, no one says in a thesis, this is so new it can't be measured. That is BS. Same with their arguments.

[fas42]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

Did you miss the bit when I detailed the results of playing actual music at -60 dBFS?

 

There was very quiet music, and zero noise.

 

Noise ain't noise ... that is, what you hear is not going to be something like the twittering of tape hiss - something which is obviously nothing to do with the music. The noise of digital chains is embedded in the fabric of the music - the infamous digititus is the same thing, and in that case very obvious. So, you don't hear its presence - what you will definitely hear is its absence ... the words people often use is something like, "Wow, this sounds sooo analogue ... "

[fas42]

2 hours ago, botrytis said:

Because 2 seconds is not enough time to judge anything. They are classic sales techniques to trick your brain into hearing more than is actually there.

 

It is. If you're listening for a defect in something, a very short time is all that's necessary, to confirm substandard behaviour. A good car mechanic can listen to an engine for 2 seconds, and know that it has an issue - any misbehaviour adds a noise that shouldn't be there, and his work can start ...

[DrT]

boytrytis is grossly misinformed. The comparison tests I've witnessed at audio shows were several minutes with, followed by several minutes without, the device in question playing the same piece of music. The listening test at home is... thirty days. Of course if all of this is beyond your ability to afford, or your ability to evaluate, and either case really angers you, it really doesn't matter. 

[Racerxnet]

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It is. If you're listening for a defect in something, a very short time is all that's necessary, to confirm substandard behaviour. A good car mechanic can listen to an engine for 2 seconds, and know that it has an issue - any misbehaviour adds a noise that shouldn't be there, and his work can start ...

I'll bet you a thousand to one you couldn't determine what specific lifter is bad on a V8 in 2 seconds. Is it a solid, hydraulic, or roller lifter to boot. If you cannot hear any noise in a audio system, is it misbehaving??

[fas42]

51 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

I'll bet you a thousand to one you couldn't determine what specific lifter is bad on a V8 in 2 seconds. Is it a solid, hydraulic, or roller lifter to boot. If you cannot hear any noise in a audio system, is it misbehaving??

 

Which is not the point. All that's needed, is to identify that there is a problem. What you then do about it, to locate the area that's giving you grief, and resolving it, is a completely different exercise - if someone asks you, what do you think of my system, and you can hear it being sub-par, you then have the choice of being honest - or, to save his ego, tell porkies ... .

 

An audio setup is misbehaving, if you can hear that it's inaccurate - the term "synergy" is usually thrown around to mean good things, which actually means, "more accurate". "Interesting signature" is a polite way of saying, very inaccurate . These days lack of "analogue goodness" is the usual culprit - which is the digital noise floor thing; a couple of decades ago, power amplifiers were pretty terrible, and the SQ disintegrated as soon as the volume went up - the first test I used to do was lift the level until you could hear the amp starting to make a mess of the treble.

[Racerxnet]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Which is not the point. All that's needed, is to identify that there is a problem. What you then do about it, to locate the area that's giving you grief, and resolving it, is a completely different exercise - if someone asks you, what do you think of my system, and you can hear it being sub-par, you then have the choice of being honest - or, to save his ego, tell porkies ... .

 

An audio setup is misbehaving, if you can hear that it's inaccurate - the term "synergy" is usually thrown around to mean good things, which actually means, "more accurate". "Interesting signature" is a polite way of saying, very inaccurate . These days lack of "analogue goodness" is the usual culprit - which is the digital noise floor thing; a couple of decades ago, power amplifiers were pretty terrible, and the SQ disintegrated as soon as the volume went up - the first test I used to do was lift the level until you could hear the amp starting to make a mess of the treble.

Lol, You turn up the volume until the amp clips and then claim there is a problem. 

Digital noise thing??? Inaccurate??  If we swap out the speakers on a system, and they sound "different" which one is more or less "accurate". Or do all speakers sound the same?? 

 

Frank, I think you are on to something regarding porkies!  🙃

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, DrT said:

boytrytis is grossly misinformed. The comparison tests I've witnessed at audio shows were several minutes with, followed by several minutes without, the device in question playing the same piece of music. The listening test at home is... thirty days. Of course if all of this is beyond your ability to afford, or your ability to evaluate, and either case really angers you, it really doesn't matter. 

This was done, THIS YEAR, at AXPONA. They did it exactly the way I described it. My wife will describe it even worse than I did.  I also know others who were with us that will describe it the way I did.

 

I don't care if anyone spends money with charlatans,  but don't push like it is some amazing invention because it is scientific nonsense.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Let’s keep the personal attacks off the site. Nobody is saving babies or killing puppies. 
 

Live and let listen. 

[Rexp]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let’s keep the personal attacks off the site. Nobody is saving babies or killing puppies. 
 

Live and let listen. 

So no one is allowed to call someone elses views nonsense anymore?

I'd second that motion.

[fas42]

14 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

Lol, You turn up the volume until the amp clips and then claim there is a problem. 

Digital noise thing??? Inaccurate??  If we swap out the speakers on a system, and they sound "different" which one is more or less "accurate". Or do all speakers sound the same?? 

 

Frank, I think you are on to something regarding porkies!  🙃

 

In the 1980s, amps had a problem with maintaining integrity of treble, in a busy mix. I used some tracks from a boogie rock recording, where it was easy to hear how the drumkit cymbals became white noise, as the amp began to distort too much. Some amps never were able to reproduce this part of the mix, no matter how soft they were - there was never a need to go to clipping levels, kitchen radio volumes were usually enough; and a touch above this usually brought out bad behaviour .

 

Speakers sound "different" when the system causes your focus to be on what comes from the drivers, rather than what's on the sound stage. Say, with my current setup I listen to what some part of the music making is doing; I 'see' the instrument, or section in action, behind the speakers - something like a conductor listening to what part of his orchestra is doing. If the tonality is not quite right, then that's a sign of misbehaviour.

 

The better the system, the less what speakers you use matter - success is when some recording you have heard hundreds of times emerges in its "best clothes", subjectively sounding like it always has.

[Racerxnet]

3 hours ago, Rexp said:

So no one is allowed to call someone elses views nonsense anymore?

I'd second that motion.

Let's go WOKE on that motion.....  no truth allowed.

[Confused]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Noise ain't noise ... that is, what you hear is not going to be something like the twittering of tape hiss - something which is obviously nothing to do with the music. The noise of digital chains is embedded in the fabric of the music - the infamous digititus is the same thing, and in that case very obvious. So, you don't hear its presence - what you will definitely hear is its absence ... the words people often use is something like, "Wow, this sounds sooo analogue ... "

Ah, OK. So this would be measured as a "signal to signal" ratio, as this noise is not noise.

 

So what are, say, the top three causes of the "noise" that that imbeds itself in music? 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Ah, OK. So this would be measured as a "signal to signal" ratio, as this noise is not noise.

 

So what are, say, the top three causes of the "noise" that that imbeds itself in music? 

 

Contact noise: metal to metal contact, which is not truly gas tight. And wiper contact surfaces. The latter is why conventional volume controls, using potentiometers, are often a major weakness

 

Electrical interference: anything that consumes, say, mains power; and is in the vicinity of the system

 

Static: this is a nasty one, because the 'wrong' materials in contact with each other are capable of generating just enough electrical interference to significantly degrade SQ.

 

Also can mention vibration, which is often interwoven with the first three causes.

 

IME, only dedicated effort to eliminate all of these factors yields optimum sound, especially with value for money setups.

 

[Blackmorec]

23 hours ago, Confused said:

Did you miss the bit when I detailed the results of playing actual music at -60 dBFS?

 

There was very quiet music, and zero noise.

Hi Confused, 

 

Its really very straightforward how this works……

 

A digital data stream is basically ultra high frequency voltage polarity switches, running at frequencies that are orders of magnitude higher than anyone can hear. 

 

‘Noise’, also at very high frequencies, accompanies this data stream and disturbs the eventual processing of the stream and its conversion to an analog voltage signal representing the music.  So all you hear is the music….no noise because the noise is a. At too high a frequency and b. no longer present in the analog conversion. But what you do hear are the resulting shortcomings in the musical presentation. 

 

To rephrase, noise in digital isn’t something that you hear….rather it manifests as a loss of information like ambience, venue clues, atmosphere, note shape and the resulting listener involvement and emotional content. 

 

The cleaner the data stream, the better the resulting music’s presentation.  Digital noise is heard as a lack of finesse, beauty and emotion, which of course begs the question, what does finesse, beauty and emotion look like on an oscilloscope trace?