Concert Hall Architecture

[Ralf11]

I like the way they got clever with the diffusors 

[gmgraves]

On 2/7/2017 at 6:47 AM, semente said:

 

It's always sad to learn of orchestras that use amplification...

 

But I do tune my ears with live music; but I do it with unamplified music.

I am convinced that evaluating performance (a task that is different from the more common "tasting") requires experience with live unamplified sound and is far more effective if you use this kind of music for testing.

And I'm also aware that domestic reproduction of recorded music will only produce an illusion, which is why I find it important to know what is possible to achieve, what the most accurate systems sound like, and also how to identify distortions or shortcomings.

I can never recreate the original event and all I have is a recordings so I find it paramount that the signal is reproduced as faithfully as possible.

 

 

R

 

I agree. In fact, if I go to a concert and see P.A. equipment, I go to the management and ask if the equipment was going to be used for that performance. If the answer is yes, I demand a refund, and then leave. I also make as big of a "scene" about it as possible; explaining loudly that I have better speakers and amps at home, and if I wanted to listen to a sound system, I could have stayed home and heard a much better one than ostensibly resided in that concert hall. Sound systems are simply not necessary in a concert hall, especially for a symphony orchestra, but even for smaller ensembles. These venues only use them because they have them, and it ruins the live music experience! 

 

Most modern audiophiles don't put a lot of stock in this any more, but I'm a firm believer that if one is interested in the accurate reproduction of music, one must keep one's ears "calibrated". If one doesn't, one has know way of knowing how far off the mark one's system is from being accurate. People tend to stray toward bright, sparkling highs and boomy, one-note bass if left to their own devices and with no feedback on how real music actually sounds. I know that most audiophiles these days listen to mostly rock and pop, and no classical, still, if one keeps one system sounding as much like real, live acoustic music as is practical, everything will sound better through it, even performances that don't really exist in real space. 

[sphinxsix]

2 hours ago, gmgraves said:

I demand a refund, and then leave. I also make as big of a "scene" about it as possible;

+1

 

I left an Orthodox Church choir music concert last Sunday after 15 minutes. They used PA system that was worse than good $250 speakers based system. I'd probably need a good equalizer and 5 minutes to make it sound acceptable. Couldn't demand no ticket refund though - the concert was free  

 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

+1

 

I left an Orthodox Church choir music concert last Sunday after 15 minutes. They used PA system that was worse than good $250 speakers based system. I'd probably need a good equalizer and 5 minutes to make it sound acceptable. Couldn't demand no ticket refund though - the concert was free  

 

 

Well, there it is. You get what you pay for; sometimes less, but never more. But then when you pay $35-100 for concert tickets and STILL get lousy P.A. sound (or any PA sound), well, there is simply no excuse for it!

[rando]

Louvre Abu Dhabi as a concert hall on opening day.

 

[Musicophile]

Some additions from my personal experience during the last year:

 

Pierre Boulez Saal, Barenboim-Said Academy, Berlin

 

"Salle Modulable" designed by Frank Gehry. All pics taken from my blog.

 

 

 

 

Nice, not too large, good for chamber music.

 

[semente]

Would you consider sitting behind an orchestra?

 

 

New Edinburgh Concert Hall by David Chipperfield

[rando]

3 tiers of choir space!  They must really like vocal accompaniment in Edinburgh.  

 

The rear seats being occupied has to figure into acoustic design.

[Hugo9000]

4 hours ago, semente said:

Would you consider sitting behind an orchestra?

 

 

New Edinburgh Concert Hall by David Chipperfield

Quote

Internally, the timber lined concert hall will form the key space within the new music venue. Its main function as a room for music draws the focus of the space to the stage platform at its centre. The hall forms another set-piece public interior within the ensemble of grand civic rooms found in the neighbouring listed buildings. The length, width and height of the space has been developed with Nagata Acoustics as a direct result of its required acoustic performance. Spatially the shape of the hall has been adapted to work within the constrained geometry of the site to create a unique, flexible performance space that can be reconfigured to ensure that a wide range of performance types and events can be accommodated. The hall’s compact nature naturally leads to a high degree of acoustic and spatial intimacy within the space. The stage is the acoustic and visual focal point of the hall. The audience is arranged around the room in a series of continuous balconies that embrace the stage platform and provide the orchestra and audience with a single, unified experience. Seating on these layered strata is carefully configured to provide straightforward access and excellent sightlines throughout. Although specifically designed for the optimum acoustic performance, the hall will be adaptable to accommodate various other types of events. A set of mechanical stage risers will allow for a wide variety of configurations to suit different scales or styles of performances and can be combined with the seating behind the stage to accommodate larger choirs when required. The horizontal strata are continued around the vertical surfaces of the hall into the room’s ceiling to optimise acoustic reflections and provide the best possible audience experience. The wide range of desired performances, recordings and events will require the accommodation of different sets of acoustic properties within the hall and provisions will be made to adapt the space from natural acoustics to amplified sound.

 

The above-quoted info on the hall is from the pdf linked below.  Interesting project.  @gmgraves and others will note with dismay that they will allow provisions to "adapt" for "amplified sound" and not just natural acoustics.  I guess they can host singers who cannot project and not just operatic voices, so that will please some haha!

 

http://impactscotland.org.uk/sites/default/files/PC2 Display Final.pdf

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, semente said:

Would you consider sitting behind an orchestra?

 

 

New Edinburgh Concert Hall by David Chipperfield

I would think that sitting behind the orchestra would be VERY disconcerting. But a number of newer venues are arranged like that. The New Walt Disney center in Los Angeles seems to have a similar layout (just seen pictures, never been there)

[gmgraves]

49 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

 

The above-quoted info on the hall is from the pdf linked below.  Interesting project.  @gmgraves and others will note with dismay that they will allow provisions to "adapt" for "amplified sound" and not just natural acoustics.  I guess they can host singers who cannot project and not just operatic voices, so that will please some haha!

 

http://impactscotland.org.uk/sites/default/files/PC2 Display Final.pdf

I think noting with disgust would be more accurate than "noting with dismay". There's little need, in a well designed concert hall, for SR. People got along for centuries without it. I think it's one of those things that people use simply because they've got it. In the Royal Albert Hall in London, for instance, one can hear a pin drop on the stage from anywhere in the hall. When I attended a performance of Turandot at La Scala in Milano; again, I was sitting in the back of the balcony and I could certainly hear the orchestra and singers a lot better than I could see them! Back in the late 80's I attended a Van Cliburn concert at Carnegie hall, of course it's a relatively small venue compared to La Scala and the Albert Hall, but again, when Van Cliburn addressed the audience he could be heard easily all over the hall. (same with Bernstein when he used to do his young persons guides to music in the 1950s. He had a mike for broadcast, but no PA). Good halls just don't need it. Electronic Music (sampling synthesizers, electric guitars, Fender Rhodes Pianos etc.) needs it, so the capability needs to exist, I guess, in any multi-purpose venue. 

[Ralf11]

can I amend an above stmt. George?  [ ]

 

People [initially] tend to stray toward bright, sparkling highs and boomy, one-note bass [but after extended listening - say, to a particular system - they will find it tiring or less interesting.]

 

I think the same thing happens visually - one reason you see over processing of photos and sales people effing up the screen parameters on large format TVs

[rando]

There are very rare forays into amplification worth sticking around for.  Being a Sony label musician comes with a few perks when you decide to be a dual instrumentalist while conducting.  As was the case with Martin Fröst and a "Gestrument" during the premiere of a new orchestral piece by it's inventor.  From the best seat in the house amplified sound, spoken and triggered, was very well matched to traditional instrumentation.  Large speakers on tripods were settled on either side of the stage placing the woofers 2' above the instruments.  The air instrument's decay with a clarinet floating through didn't fall short in conception or practice.

 

Topically, it was performed here.  Rear seating is adequate for a choir (or devoted people watching).

 

[semente]

11 hours ago, gmgraves said:

multi-purpose venue

 

This is all about money really.

A multi-purpose venue is a jack of all trades and a master of none...

So why do they build them? Because that's the only way that they can pay for it and keep the business alive.

Sad, but it's better to have a multi-purpose venue that is used by classical music orchestras and performes than no venue at all.

 

One thing I've noticed is that some of the second-tier soloists that come to play at the local lunchtime recitals have probably gotten so used to playing loud in these huge venues that their playing sounds simultaneously bland and almost painful in the small church...

[Kal Rubinson]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:17 AM, semente said:

Would you consider sitting behind an orchestra?

 

 

New Edinburgh Concert Hall by David Chipperfield

I would not but it provides choir space, when needed, and additional seating for the desperate.  Also, there is nothing new about it.  Here's the venerable Concertgebouw in Amsterdam:

[AnotherSpin]

The very same question again, what is important, music itself or how it sounds?

[gmgraves]

15 hours ago, semente said:

 

This is all about money really.

A multi-purpose venue is a jack of all trades and a master of none...

So why do they build them? Because that's the only way that they can pay for it and keep the business alive.

Sad, but it's better to have a multi-purpose venue that is used by classical music orchestras and performes than no venue at all.

 

One thing I've noticed is that some of the second-tier soloists that come to play at the local lunchtime recitals have probably gotten so used to playing loud in these huge venues that their playing sounds simultaneously bland and almost painful in the small church...

What you say is true. Back in the Early seventies, the City of San Jose CA built themselves a Center for the Performing Arts. To accommodate the symphony, they designed the venue with a moving ceiling. When the orchestra was playing, they could move the ceiling back revealing this monster overhead space with sound baffles and reflectors, all tuned to make the hall sound good with orchestral music. When it was being used as a lecture hall, or for plays, the ceiling would be closed and quite low giving it a decent acoustic for dialog and other more intimate performances. Two weeks before the opening concert, while the moveable ceiling was being moved back so that the orchestra could rehearse in the new hall, the fancy ceiling came tumbling down. Luckily, there was nobody in the audience at the time. but it set back the opening of what came to be called "Chicken Little" Auditorium for almost a year. The resultant "fix" was such a compromise, that it worked well for neither orchestra nor lectures/plays. As a concert hall, it was as dry as the Sahara Desert. I had to use a Lexicon reverb box to give the recordings any ambience. The orchestra hated the hall as did the two conductors. Finally, after about 20 years of griping,  the city renovated the big downtown Fox "movie palace" as a dedicated concert hall with a donated theater organ (where Cisco built an optical single glass fiber connection from the console to the organ "works" backstage for the Symphony). It sounds much better that did "Chicken Little".

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

The very same question again, what is important, music itself or how it sounds?

The music is what's important, but the better it sounds, the more pleasurable it is - for sure!

[AnotherSpin]

7 hours ago, gmgraves said:

The music is what's important, but the better it sounds, the more pleasurable it is - for sure!

 

We can bounce arguments back and forth - great performance in a bad acoustics may be way more pleasurable than poor performance in an excellent acoustics.

[semente]

16 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

The very same question again, what is important, music itself or how it sounds?

 

 

When you can read a sheet of music what do you need the sound for? It's the music that's important, isn't it, not the sound.

 

With acoustic music the (sound of the) venue is part of the final result; I'd be so bold as to call it an instrument in it's own right.

Even the seat you choose (or the spot you place the mic on) plays a part in your enjoyment.

Maestros and players spend their lives striving for a beautiful, expressive tone because of how it sounds...

[Daccord]

13 hours ago, gmgraves said:

what came to be called "Chicken Little" Auditorium

I like concert hall nicknames. Toronto's Massey Hall opened in 1892, but the city entered a big growth phase in the 1970s,  and a plan to replace the shabby old hall with something new and spectacular was launched. Roy Thomson Hall, completed in 1982, was immediately dubbed Glassy Hall.

 

Massey Hall is still around, but was badly neglected for many years. The last time I was there, in 2017, it was in very sad shape. However, this month a major renovation began. It will include removal of the external fire escape, added in 1911 after the city enacted fire safety regulations due to a city-wide fire in 1904. For years the fire escape has been known as The Moustache.

 

Ten years ago the Royal Conservatory of Music received a terrific addition, the 1,135-seat Koerner Hall. I saw Hilary Hahn there a couple of weeks ago playing Bach sonatas and partitas. Just Ms Hahn and her violin on the stage, and the sound was fabulous. I'm not aware of any nicknames for the hall just yet.

 

[AnotherSpin]

3 hours ago, semente said:

 

 

When you can read a sheet of music what do you need the sound for? It's the music that's important, isn't it, not the sound.

 

With acoustic music the (sound of the) venue is part of the final result; I'd be so bold as to call it an instrument in it's own right.

Even the seat you choose (or the spot you place the mic on) plays a part in your enjoyment.

Maestros and players spend their lives striving for a beautiful, expressive tone because of how it sounds...

 

I have nothing against great sounding halls or instruments, just was trying to say WHAT, WHY and by WHOM some thing is delivered is no less important than HOW it was delivered.

[gmgraves]

13 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

We can bounce arguments back and forth - great performance in a bad acoustics may be way more pleasurable than poor performance in an excellent acoustics.

That goes without saying but it's totally irrelevant to the point.

[AnotherSpin]

10 hours ago, gmgraves said:

That goes without saying but it's totally irrelevant to the point.

 

The same with the topic.

[rando]

Making a break with new construction using modern acoustic solutions to bring attention to a space which very well might disappear shortly.

 

 

The John Russell Pope designed Frick Music Room, part of the Frick Collection located in NYC, is under threat of being demolished to fulfill a planned expansion which faces adverse voices of protest from multiple quarters.  For over 80 years it has served as a home for chamber music and recitals of national and international importance.  The most popular and longest running music series was free to the public for most of this time.  Disney distractions and beaming screens staying at a remove hint towards the steadily high quality of performers capable of drawing crowds while other venues struggle to find relevance.  

 

Well suited performance spaces are already facing increased pressure due to the remodeling of Lincoln Center's David Geffen Hall.  Losing two well established concert halls in one year impacts even a city as large as New York negatively.  This being 2020, there is a website established for multiple concerned parties to express their outrage and well founded reasoning in opposition to the plans being sold by Frick investors and trustees.