MQA is Vaporware

[bcwang]

Hi.

 

One thing about MQA format amazes me.

I've downloaded the entire 2L test bench in both MQA (when available) and 24/96k PCM.

 

Neutron Eval, wich does NOT "unfolds" MQA files BUT plays back them normally, is a reproducer that ALWAYS shows sampling rate and bit depth of what it is playing. Well; every file from 2L in 24/96k appears marked as expected. On the other hand, their MQA counterparts appeared (without exception) marked as 24 bits 44,1 kHz files, what is not very usual.

 

I have not a MQA decoder, so I've had to listen to in a quite (I gess) primary way.

SQ was better in 24/96k (not "tremendously" better) than in MQA form, but not having a dedicated decoder my impressions could well be premature.

 

Anyway, and with so much contradictory literature on the matter, my question is:

What is the REAL resolution of MQA files when properly decoded, if there is just a single one?

 

(BTW.: I've made, as an experiment, a few files encoding in FLAC of the original 24/96k, and always the resulting size is SMALLER than its MQA counterparts, with no degradación in SQ at all).

 

VenturaRV

 

The 44.1khz base sample rate MQA is because much of 2L catalog is 352khz DXD. So that is normal.

[pdickerson]

And the final answer for this thread?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[ron spencer]

And the final answer for this thread?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Why bother with specialized encoding "schemes" that are closed source when FLAC gives you everything you NEED...Of course, FLAC does not have any "cool" aid to sell you ;-)

[audiventory]

Why bother with specialized encoding "schemes" that are closed source when FLAC gives you everything you NEED...Of course, FLAC does not have any "cool" aid to sell you ;-)

 

FLAC is lossless, but have lesser compression ratio, than MQA. For broadcast/streaming applications it may be critical.

[Cebolla]

However, critically, unlike the current broadcasting/streaming choice of CD resolution lossy compressed but high bitrate/quality AAC, MP3, Ogg Vorbis, etc vs CD resolution lossless uncompressed PCM, we are not talking about an order of magnitude saving in streaming bandwith here.

 

At best MQA files are just over half the size of lossless FLAC files with equivalent resolution of decoded MQA (ie, disregarding the redundant upsampling provided by MQA 'unfolding').

[miguelito]

FLAC is lossless, but have lesser compression ratio, than MQA. For broadcast/streaming applications it may be critical.

@Miska has done the bandwidth analysis. If I recall correctly, the bandwidth required to stream an MQA file is ~ 2x that of a redbook FLAC, and about the same as a 18bit/96KHz FLAC which incorporates all of the data in an MQA file.

 

But regardless... Anyone able to stream MQA could stream a 24/96 file. Bandwidth of this sort is generally not a problem today. The set of people that could stream MQA reliably but not a 24/96 file is of measure zero. I say this bc as someone pointed out in the past, not all player will be able to play a 18/96 FLAC.

[adamdea]

@Miska has done the bandwidth analysis. If I recall correctly, the bandwidth required to stream an MQA file is ~ 2x that of a redbook FLAC, and about the same as a 18bit/96KHz FLAC which incorporates all of the data in an MQA file.

 

But regardless... Anyone able to stream MQA could stream a 24/96 file. Bandwidth of this sort is generally not a problem today. The set of people that could stream MQA reliably but not a 24/96 file is of measure zero. I say this bc as someone pointed out in the past, not all player will be able to play a 18/96 FLAC.

Possibly but you can get the same result AFAIK by "bit freezing" the bottom digits of 24/96. If you stop the bottom digits presenting as noise then FLAC will pack them very tightly. Or you can noise shape 16/96 which should work pretty well.

[miguelito]

Possibly but you can get the same result AFAIK by "bit freezing" the bottom digits of 24/96. If you stop the bottom digits presenting as noise then FLAC will pack them very tightly. Or you can noise shape 16/96 which should work pretty well.

Yes, good point. But I wouldn't even bother to do that and just stream 24/96 with 24 bit depth. If streaming that is unreliable, MQA will certainly be as well, possibly with a slightly lower dropout rate.

[mansr]

Possibly but you can get the same result AFAIK by "bit freezing" the bottom digits of 24/96. If you stop the bottom digits presenting as noise then FLAC will pack them very tightly. Or you can noise shape 16/96 which should work pretty well.

Yes, dithering 24-bit samples to 18-bit precision works very well. Noise-shaped 16-bit might actually compress worse, though I haven't tried it.

 

Another bandwidth-saving technique is to filter out high frequencies containing only noise. This has roughly the same effect as reducing the sample rate without causing any compatibility issues.

[Miska]

I say this bc as someone pointed out in the past, not all player will be able to play a 18/96 FLAC.

 

You can dither it 18-bit and still keep 24-bit samples that are just zero-padded, that's what I did for the tests because there was intermediate WAV file before FLAC compression. FLAC is clever enough to notice those zero-valued LSBs. Such file will play on everything that can play 24/96 FLAC.

[Miska]

Another bandwidth-saving technique is to filter out high frequencies containing only noise. This has roughly the same effect as reducing the sample rate without causing any compatibility issues.

 

As optimization I run the source file through spectral analysis and picked a sampling rate that would still fit all the detectable meaningful frequency components. And ended up with 120 kHz sampling rate in such case. HQPlayer can play such files just fine, but of course probably not all players though. But another alternative is, as you say, just apply filter cut-off at 60 kHz and leave sampling rate for example at 176.4 or 192k. That would make the file smaller too and still keep it playable on everything that supports the original rate.

 

All these things could be done at mastering stage based on source content analysis and doesn't pose any more effort than dealing with MQA coding.

[Rt66indierock]

And the final answer for this thread?

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

I plan to update this thread until the number of MQA albums is over 10,000. At that point the discussion will move on to whether MQA is commercially viable. The March update will focus on the Brit centric marketing of MQA. The May update will review where MQA is compared to the original post just in time for the LA Audio Show.

[NOMBEDES]

MQA.

 

I will not seek MQA or make it a condition of purchase for any future equipment/software. I will not upgrade or replace any equipment or software in order to obtain it.

 

If it is there, and running, I will use it.*

 

I will not be adding any music with MQA capability just to have MQA.

 

 

 

* Like when I put a SACD disc in my player. If it is a SACD, it plays. I don't have to do anything.

[crenca]

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/03/16/mqa-to-be-released-on-cd/

 

Will it be an niche/oddity like SCAD/DVD-A/etc. or will it be the way all/most CD's are released 5 years from now?

[audiventory]

But regardless... Anyone able to stream MQA could stream a 24/96 file. Bandwidth of this sort is generally not a problem today.

 

For home network - no problem, for public network - bandwidth is critical, as rule.

 

Here I done some calculations (for unfolded MQA to 192 kHz bandwidth), that may be interesting http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/why-universal-music-partnered-mqa-article-31755/index2.html#post639602

[Rt66indierock]

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/03/16/mqa-to-be-released-on-cd/

 

Will it be an niche/oddity like SCAD/DVD-A/etc. or will it be the way all/most CD's are released 5 years from now?

 

Japanese culture is still based on Cd's. Tower Records all nine stories of it is still going strong in Tokyo last time I checked.

 

Did you notice the authentication comment? A lot of the rights holders to music in US are family partnerships. They have tax advisers and lawyers who know enough to demand something extra for the right to make new formats of the music. They write the agreements narrowly so record companies have to keep coming back for the right to make hi-res versions.

[mansr]

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/03/16/mqa-to-be-released-on-cd/

 

Will it be an niche/oddity like SCAD/DVD-A/etc. or will it be the way all/most CD's are released 5 years from now?

And they claim the 8-bit undecoded version still sounds better than real CD. No way in hell.

[audiventory]

And they claim the 8-bit undecoded version still sounds better than real CD. No way in hell.

 

We can't deny other people's subjective perception - we have no proofs. Otherwise, claims, that based on subjective perceptions, are not proofs too

[pdickerson]

I am enjoying hearing Todd Rundgren sound better than I have heard on my old cd's. How else am I suppose to get better audio? MQA delivers right from Tidal into the investment I have made in my audio system. If there is a download in hires someone can provide? All my cds are in the attic and that's where I'd like them to stay.

[ron spencer]

FLAC is lossless, but have lesser compression ratio, than MQA. For broadcast/streaming applications it may be critical.

 

critical??? don't think so:

 

from:

 

MQA

 

 

Question: How much sustained bandwidth does a typical Internet connection have?

 

Answer: According to the "State of the Internet" published by Akamai Technologies in 2015, the global average bandwidth was 5.6Mbits per second, and that is average, not peak. In most technologically-developed countries, the average connection speed was around 10Mbits per second.

 

Question: How much bandwidth is required to stream stereo audio at various bit depths and sample rates?

 

Answer:

 

CD quality (16-bits/44.1kHz) needs about 1.4Mb/second

24-bits/88.2kHz needs about 4.2Mb/second

24-bits/96kHz needs about 4.6Mb/second

24-bits/176.4kHz needs 8.4Mb/second

24-bits/192 kHz needs 9.2Mb/second

DSD (Single DSD, or DSD64) needs 5.6Mb/second

 

As you can see from the above answers, there is enough Internet connection speed on a global basis for stereo audio at 24-bits and 96kHz PCM sample rate, or DSD at a Single DSD (DSD64) level—and that is without any compression at all, just pure unmolested digital audio as it may be used during recording. If your listening room is in the US, or most countries in Asia or Europe, there is enough bandwidth to stream twice as much.

 

So flac it up and you get even more bandwidth savings without PROPRIETARY "schemes of unfolding"

[audiventory]

critical??? don't think so:

 

from:

 

MQA

 

 

 

 

So flac it up and you get even more bandwidth savings without PROPRIETARY "schemes of unfolding"

 

Let calculate bitrate for 1000 users simultaneously for abstract audio streaming service, as example. If you save band 2 times it will good

 

In my post above link to my calculations for WiFi in other thread.

[Bullwinkle]

Back in 1996 I built my first computer, for my wife, and went on to build many more both for her and for my research lab at the U.

I don't remember exactly when I started noticing those 5x2 clusters of pins sticking out of motherboards but I do remember seeing them for years before I saw anything that actually plugged into them. And I remember wondering whether this thing called "Universal Serial Bus" was like, oh I don't know, 8-track or Betamax or somesuch foolishness... 

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, Bullwinkle said:

Back in 1996 I built my first computer, for my wife, and went on to build many more both for her and for my research lab at the U.

I don't remember exactly when I started noticing those 5x2 clusters of pins sticking out of motherboards but I do remember seeing them for years before I saw anything that actually plugged into them. And I remember wondering whether this thing called "Universal Serial Bus" was like, oh I don't know, 8-track or Betamax or somesuch foolishness... 

USB solved a lot problems in my field accounting. How are things on the Dixie Highway in Coral Gables?

[Nikhil]

I hope the Andreas Koch PF article will put some sense into the MQA believers out there.
It is more than a scam.  As another article put it, it's a land grab.

To all those who talk about the way MQA sounds, I would like to point them towards the BugHead software discussion on here where the developer uses jitter and other techniques to tune the sound.  The sound is glorious.  Of course it's only an example but it really isn't the first time adding some sort of distortion helped to change the sound a certain way i.e. CD markers.  Of course "apodizing filters" sounds very impressive.  Fixing Time distortion? Less said the better ... Mitch's article pretty much nailed that lie.

 Andreas Koch correctly points out that MQA tries to solve problems that doesn't exist.  It is an elaborate fraud.  

 

 

[Sal1950]

1 hour ago, Nikhil said:

 

On 3/16/2017 at 7:02 AM, ron spencer said:

 

Why bother with specialized encoding "schemes" that are closed source when FLAC gives you everything you NEED...Of course, FLAC does not have any "cool" aid to sell you ;-)

The answer is right there in it's name. FREE Lossless Audio Codec. Won't none of the greedy money grabbers make money with FLAC coding.

1 hour ago, Nikhil said:

I hope the Andreas Koch PF article will put some sense into the MQA believers out there.
It is more than a scam.  As another article put it, it's a land grab.

Andreas Koch correctly points out that MQA tries to solve problems that doesn't exist.  It is an elaborate fraud.  

 

 

+1. But just follow the $ and you'll see who profits on the back end of all this snake oil marketing. Frauds are always imposed on others for the profits.