A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

4 minutes ago, Patatorz said:

not able to find the 800w dc-Atx on hdplex website...

https://hdplex.com/hdplex-800w-dc-atx-with-16v-63vdc-input.html

[rickca]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

HDPlex's bigger, badder 800W DC-ATX adapter is a real SQ champ.

How did you power this?  Doesn't it require two 6-pin 19V inputs?

[rickca]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

 

Could someone explain what are the options to power the HDPlex 800W DC-ATX adapter?

s it possible to use a conventional (nonlinear) PC power supply to do this? Such as my Seasonic 400W fanless platinum PSU?

Conventional ATX power supplies don't have a 19V output required to power the DC-ATX.

[rickca]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

I found the blue combo, i.e. DR rails on the switch and tX-USBultra, to sound better.

Does this mean in your system the power quality/capacity provided for the switch and tX-USBultra is more critical than that provided for the server, or can you not draw that conclusion from your A vs B comparison?

[rickca]

At CES we will likely see the launch of Intel Comet Lake desktop CPUs and Z490 motherboards with availability in 2Q2020.  If this happens, I'll start a new topic to focus on it.

 

I'm interested in i7-10700K (8 cores/16 threads) 95W TDP 16MB SmartCache for under $400.  Base clock is 3.6 GHz, single core turbo is 5.1 GHz and all core turbo is 4.8 GHz ... if the early leaked info is accurate.

 

 

 

 

[rickca]

For those looking for the ultimate motherboard, here's a new C622 motherboard from EVGA for $1800 (after $200 rebate).  It has a 24 phase power design on a 16 layer PCB with a pre-installed waterblock for the VRM and chipset.

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=160-CX-W999-KR

[rickca]

Here's a very detailed leak about Intel Ghost Canyon NUC.  Use Google translate.

 

Quite a few surprises.  The good news is it has both a PCIe x16 slot and a PCIe x4 slot, 3 x M.2 Key M, dual Ethernet ports, and WiFi 6.  The bad news is there's a 500W internal power supply and two fans.

 

The NUC9 will use Intel's swappable NUC compute element board with 45W TDP processors.

https://koolshare.cn/thread-168913-1-1.html

 

[rickca]

On 1/6/2020 at 8:38 AM, rickca said:

Intel Ghost Canyon NUC

Another article including some rather shockingly high prices.  Intel will also have Quartz Canyon that will offer Xeon CPUs.  

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/7/21051879/intel-pc-nuc-9-extreme-ghost-canyon-element-hands-on-teardown-ces-2020

 

 

[rickca]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

this upcoming DC4 from Dr. Sean Jacobs

Can someone please explain why this unit would have a 400VA transformer if it can only do 5A continuous current?  Even at 25V, isn't that way overspec?  Clearly I don't understand enough about power supply design. 

[rickca]

11 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

SQ is C > A > B.

If you can buy or make an appropriate cable, try your HDPLEX 200W 12V rail for EPS (not going though the DC-ATX).  I haven't done this myself, but I'd expect the sound quality would be even better than HDPLEX 200W 19V ==> HDPLEX 800W DC-ATX ==> EPS.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

 

Thanks, I do have such a cable and will try.

 

In that case it may even be preferable to use the HDPlex's upper variable LT3045 2A output, which should be cleaner. Or I could go a step further:

HDPlex 15V => MPAudio DLS-HPULN 12V => EPS

to make it even cleaner.

I doubt that 2A will be anywhere near enough for your EPS12V.  But I see you already tried it!  You must be running a really light workload on that 35W CPU.

 

I'm mystified.  I would expect better dynamics from 12V/10A with lots of extra headroom.  But of course amperage is just one factor contributing to how a power supply responds to load.

[rickca]

@Nenon here's just what you need to pimp out your new server.  Just kidding.  It's amazing what gamers will buy.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15394/all-of-the-rgb-lian-li-strimer-plus-same-sketchy-name-upgraded-lighting

[rickca]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

Typically, your PSU should have a capacity several multiples of your observed consumption.

In capacity planning for any system, the peak/average ratio of the workload is a key concept so you make an important point.  The measurements people are reporting from various monitors are likely indicative of the average (or maybe average peak).

[rickca]

I'm waiting for the new HDPLEX 300W LPS which will replace the 200W unit.  Due to Chinese New Year, the factory is closed until 2/15 so it's going to be a while yet.  The 300W isn't up on the HDPLEX website yet.  I expect the 300W will cost more than the 200W.

 

Changes from the 200W from Larry at HDPLEX:

 

New customized chassis. Better heat dissipation.

330W transformer.

3A for LT3045 rail.

Redesigned rectifier. No longer using the old rectifier for 19V and 12V.

Protection is now in software and will be much more reliable.

[rickca]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

The article talks about the USB 3.1 Gen 2 ports being natively supported by the H370. Is this what you meant by CPU direct?

That diagram indicates all the USB ports come from the H70 chipset, so they are NOT CPU direct.  I don't think you can get CPU direct USB from Intel unless you use a SOC.

 

Native support for USB 3.1 Gen 2 on the chipset just means that motherboard manufacturers don't need some other USB controller like one from ASMedia in addition to the Intel chipset.

[rickca]

10 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I will get there, but right now, the SQ out of my server is just so darn good, my motivation isn't that strong.

I bet even Emile can't give definitive technical explanations for all his design/component decisions on the Taiko Extreme.  He has done a lot of experimentation, research and listening.  That seems to be the most productive approach for making progress, as you have proven to yourself.

 

Those who demand objective measurements or technical rationale for why some things sound better will continue to insist that we're delusional.  I'm fine with that.

 

 

 

 

[rickca]

4 hours ago, bodiebill said:

You mentioned above that powering (f.i.) the Sonnet card with 12 volts sounds best via the Molex or Sata connectors. Does this mean that all the power for the card comes from there? Or is some of the power drawn from the PCIe connection? Good to know if one aims for a purist (LPSU only) solution...

 

 

 

 

Here is the answer from Startech:

 

I have heard back from our development team and 3 to 5W will always be drawn from the PCI-e slot when using the PEXUSB314A2V.

 

I have provided a chart below with further detailed information:

[rickca]

Can I achieve the same sound quality with a 65W i7-10700 as with a 125W i7-10700K?

 

OK sure, the 65W CPU can't be overclocked, but let's leave overclocking out of this discussion unless it's relevant to sound quality.  Let's also for the moment leave aside whether the 125W CPU would enable more processor intensive HQPlayer filters/modulators than the 65W CPU.

 

Consider a 12V/10A SR7 rail.  10A isn't nearly enough to run either CPU at its maximum potential processing power.  For example, with certain benchmarks the i7-10700K will peak at over 200W.  Granted such workloads are not representative of a music server, even one running HQPlayer.

 

Here's the thing.  The 65W CPU single core turbo is 4.7 GHz vs 5.0 GHz with the 125W CPU.  And the all core turbo is 4.6 GHz on the 65W CPU vs 4.7 GHz on the 125W CPU.  So the peak power demand for both processors is going to be similar.  The key difference is in the base frequency which is 2.9 GHz on the 65W CPU vs 3.8 GHz on the 125W CPU.  Probably the 65W CPU can't sustain turbo for as long as the 125W CPU, but I haven't confirmed that by comparing the PL2 and Tau specs of these two processors.

 

So my question is whether the sound quality (maybe focusing on dynamics and transients) would be just as good with a 65W CPU as with a 125W CPU given a 12V/10A SR7 rail.

 

What does it matter?  Well, the lower power budget of the 65W CPU means it's going to be easier to cool, and certainly easier to accommodate in a fanless case.  And since 10A is a constraint for either processor, is it better to go with the 65W?  Since we are using high power processors at very low utilization, I think it's a legitimate question.

 

I don't know if anyone has a definitive answer, but I would really like some input from users who have some experience building systems.

 

Here are a couple of articles that got me thinking about this question.  

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15758/intels-10th-gen-comet-lake-desktop

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15785/the-intel-comet-lake-review-skylake-we-go-again/5

 

 

  

 

 

[rickca]

52 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Do you have any experience as to what happens when CPU demand overwhelms your power supply?

You know I do.  It depends on the design of the power supply.  My HDPLEX 200W fried the rectifier and went up in a puff of smoke.  The new 300W unit is supposed to fix that.

[rickca]

12 hours ago, rickca said:

Consider a 12V/10A SR7 rail. 

Correction.  The non-custom SR7 does 12V/12A.  Apparently Paul has a new configuration that does 12V/16A.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1061805

 

May I reiterate ... let's also for the moment leave aside whether the 125W CPU would enable more processor intensive HQPlayer filters/modulators than the 65W CPU.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Are you asking if all other things are the same, will the 65 watt cpu sound the same as the 125 watt cpu? And if not, which will sound better?

Yes, exactly.  And if one sounds better than the other, why?

 

I acknowledge @StreamFidelity's point that an i7-10700 may just be a lower binned i9-10900K that didn't test well enough to meet i9-10900K specs.

 

I spent nearly a year in Burlington, VT testing the PS3 chip at an IBM manufacturing facility.  The amount of test data collected about each chip is mind boggling, way beyond any published specs. 

[rickca]

On 6/20/2020 at 4:07 PM, austinpop said:

I too am having trouble discerning what your question is. Does this recent post of mine, detailing the differences I heard between i7-8700T and i7-8700K, help in any way? Or are you asking a different set of questions?

Yes, of course I remember your post and it was very helpful.  It's one of the things that got me asking this question.  Quite simply, other things being equal, would a 65W i7-10700 sound the same as a 125W i7-10700K or would one of them sound better?

 

In your post, you were using different motherboards with the i7-8700T and i7-8700K.  That will make a difference, but probably not as much as the CPU.

 

So the 95W CPU sounds a lot better than the 35W CPU.  Does this mean that a 125W CPU is going to be better than a 95W CPU?  Not necessarily, right?  As you mention, the power supply quality (and wattage) is an effective constraint.  A 65W CPU is actually a lot closer to a 95W watt CPU than a 35W CPU ... especially when you put frequency limits on the 95W CPU ... because things like CPU frequency/voltage don't respond in a linear fashion.

 

I suspect that turbo algorithms used to stay within the TDP power budget strongly influence the sound quality.  These algorithms have to work a lot more aggressively on a 35W CPU than on a 65W CPU.  They certainly affect the load on the power supply.  Different operating systems and music players sound different because they do different processing.  I'm suggesting something similar is happening with the processor firmware.

 

It's complicated.    

 

 

[rickca]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Holy crap! The Buffalo should come with a warning.

Of course you know that inside it there are Buffalo chips.  AKA meadow muffins. 😀

[rickca]

On 8/25/2020 at 11:50 AM, lmitche said:

Good news, the new Hdplex 300 watt feeding both 12 and 19 volts power to my server is very close in sound quality to the dual 200 watt configuration.

I'm also using an HDPLEX 300W LPS with the 12V rail powering the 8-pin EPS12V and the 19V rail powering a V2.1 400W DC-ATX.  Good price/performance.

 

I discovered that the 400W DC-ATX fits perfectly in a 5.25" drive bay in my mid-tower case which is fortunately very close to the motherboard 24-pin.  The length of the 400W DC-ATX is exactly the depth of a 5.25" bay. 

 

I just leave the 300W LPS powered on all the time.  When the computer goes to sleep, the 300W LPS cools off rapidly.  

[rickca]

A couple of dates to keep for AMD announcements.

 

Zen 3 CPUs  October 8 (12PM EDT)  

RX 6000 GPUs  October 28 (12PM EDT)

 

I am hoping for an Intel announcement of Rocket Lake-S desktop CPUs in the same timeframe, but they may have slipped into 1Q2021.