A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It's hard to say. It depends on demand. Remember - it's all about cost. Reference clocks are expensive - even the economical ones. What fraction of people who pay for sCLK-EX are willing to take the next step to a reference clock?

 

If it's 90%+, say, then a business case exists for vendors to offer integrated solutions. If, on the other hand, the number is more like 20%, then today's situation - the modular approach - is likely to endure.

Yes, that makes sense. Just trying to get my head around buying a clocking board then a master clock to run that, but this is the leading edge...  Many thanks for curating this superb thread.

[ElviaCaprice]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 7:37 PM, atxkyle said:

Also strikes me that at least a few companies have already invested in developing very minimalist, low power, low noise motherboards for network streamers.  Seems like there could be a good market for leveraging the tech from those devices to evolve them into Roon servers (with inputs for super-duper-master-clocks, and careful attention paid to isolating/filtering noise from storage, etc.).  I guess SOtM already has their version of this with the 1000SQ - so are people doing the custom mod servers cause they want something different than the 1000SQ offers, or cause it's less expensive to do the custom (or both)?

 

    SOtM does have their own server offering, sMS-1000SQ Eunhasu, but as I mentioned earlier, it tries to do too much, is over expensive, and doesn't do enough in areas that I think important, as designed in the offerings.    The one feature they do include that I would find a positive over my own custom build, low noise regulators. 

 

What I don't like,  The OS, Linux, it isn't versatile enough as Windows.  The Audio players, not needed, you can do your own in Windows.   The analog output, not needed, want to run to my own DAC.  The digital output option, not needed, want to take advantage of the tXUSBexp pcie card with sCLK-EX for USB streaming.   It uses 19V for power.  They don't say what the mobo or CPU are actually or if there is an extra pcie lane or SATA connector or even if that is what they used?  And here's the big one, for $4495 you don't even get all 4 sCLK-EX points implemented (no wonder buyers are not flocking to this server build and finding a need for fixers to follow).  Wow, isn't this what it's all about?  So, if possible you would probably have to pay an extra $200 to get SOtM to implement the extra 2 sCLK-EX points onto the motherboard, if possible.  The server uses a riser cable for the tXUSBexp card, for $4495 it doesn't incorporate a PCIE lane. 

 

UPDATE:  You do get an sCLK-EX point running to the analog output board (which you don't need), so you could ask SOtM to circumvent this back to the mobo, if possible, thus you would only need to add 1 sCLK-EX point, added. 

 

Other than the low noise regulators and mind you I don't even know how those are implemented.  I find nothing from the SOtM sCLK-EX server offering attractive over my own custom build.  For $1500, I accomplished all the features I find desirable on the SOtM sCLK-EX build other than the low noise regulators (whatever that means).  And I got a much lower powered mobo that can run @12V, which I find more desirable.

 

Conclusion.  It would be far more desirable to do a custom build with the mobo you desire incorporating all the sCLK-EX points into your singular event stream.  

 

 

 

 

[BigGuy]

See where Campbell's has come out with a soup for you guys... 

[sig8]

On 10/4/2017 at 10:21 PM, austinpop said:

 

Not sure if this got answered? I was away from the thread for a day, and a lot of interesting posts!

 

I think I addressed your question in this post here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=722622

 

But in a nutshell:

1. the sCLK-EX board uses a frequency synthesizer to generate the 4 independent frequencies that appear on it clock outputs.
2. The sCLK-EX board uses an internal oscillator to generate the reference frequency for its frequency synthesizer
3. Additionally, it is designed to accept an external reference input, which can replace the output of its internal oscillator
4. Assuming the external reference has ultra low phase noise - like the Mutec, the Cybershaft, or the upcoming SOtM OCX-10, this low phase noise gets "inherited" by the sCLK-EX outputs.

 

Thanks Rajiv. Follow up question;

 

If we are going to feed Master Clock signal to txUSBexp in the end, is it possible to do that without sCLK-EX in between. I think answer is probably no, but just wondering. Thanks.

 

 

[Johnseye]

Has anyone experimented with connecting their NAS to server via USB as opposed to switch?  I did a quick experiment with attaching my NAS to bridged ethernet on the server which eliminates the switch between the two.  I thought I could hear an improvement, but didn't spend enough time A-Bing to make a solid determination.  I'm wondering if the NAS connected via USB carries more noise over than the ethernet connection would.  Certainly eliminating the switch removes any jitter or noise it could introduce.

 

I've also been looking for an alternative to my current motherboard.  While Roy's DFI is an option I want and M.2 input and it doesn't have that.  After a lot of searching I think I finally found what I've been looking for.  Why I didn't notice it before was because I was looking for an i7 capable board.  Since the processor requirements are so minimal there is no reason why a Celeron proc can't be used.

 

My recent experimentation, confirming what others have found, is that if you're not upsampling with HQPlayer to DSD256 or 512 you don't really need that much horsepower from a server.  I slowed my proc and memory frequencies down to 800MHz and my processor utilization went from 5% to 10%.  I also removed a RAM stick, so I'm only operating on one 4GB stick.  I experienced no issues with dropouts or other sound anomalies and in fact I "think" it sounds slightly better.  However this is a micro change.  When I'm not sure if I can tell there's a difference, but think there is, it's not that big of a deal.

 

The only thing I noticed was a slight slowness with Roon when browsing through large numbers of albums.  Artist sort is no issue.  I experience this same thing on my tablet, but never have with the PC.  I have over 1500 Dead shows so browsing through that artist's "albums" taxes Roon.  It isn't as bad as my tablet which is nearly impossible to use for this artist, it just takes a few seconds.

 

The board I've identified, and will likely send off to SOtM for modification is the Jetway NF591.  Very similar to the DFI board Roy is using.  The Celeron proc is 6w.  It has a PCIe slot so I can use a tx-USBexp.  It has DC 2.5mm in which means I don't have to use an adapter from my SR7 anymore.  This is a big win.  But it has an M.2 slot which means I can A. use my current low power SSD and B. I may be able to use an Optane stick.  If I can use Optane with it (without the caching benefit unfortunately) then there may be added improvement based on what some are saying about this tech.  Sure I could use SATA as well if I wanted to go down that path and filter it with SOtM's device, but not sure about that yet.  I'm more curious about Optane.

[lmitche]

Deleted

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, sig8 said:

Thanks Rajiv. Follow up question;

 

If we are going to feed Master Clock signal to txUSBexp in the end, is it possible to do that without sCLK-EX in between. I think answer is probably no, but just wondering. Thanks.

 

No, because the original clock, that the sCLK-EX replaces, is not designed to accept a reference clock input. 

[ElviaCaprice]

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

The board I've identified, and will likely send off to SOtM for modification is the Jetway NF591.  Very similar to the DFI board Roy is using.  The Celeron proc is 6w.  It has a PCIe slot so I can use a tx-USBexp.  It has DC 2.5mm in which means I don't have to use an adapter from my SR7 anymore.  This is a big win.  But it has an M.2 slot which means I can A. use my current low power SSD and B. I may be able to use an Optane stick.  If I can use Optane with it (without the caching benefit unfortunately) then there may be added improvement based on what some are saying about this tech.  Sure I could use SATA as well if I wanted to go down that path and filter it with SOtM's device, but not sure about that yet.  I'm more curious about Optane. 

 

You could also use the mini PCIe for creating a second PCIe 1X lane to run a second tXUSBexp card from.   Run your HDD or SSD thru it. 

[rickca]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

The board I've identified, and will likely send off to SOtM for modification is the Jetway NF591. 

Here's an Apollo Lake board I've found that I really like.  BCM Advanced Research is based in Irvine, CA.  I'd appreciate input from others who are comparing motherboards.

http://www.bcmcom.com/e-ad/eletter_01132017_MX3350N_Intel_Apollo_Lake_N3350_thin_mini_itx.html

[rickca]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

I may be able to use an Optane stick.

Optane is PCIe x2 only.  You can't use it in a SATA-only M.2 slot.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

You could also use the mini PCIe for creating a second PCIe 1X lane to run a second tXUSBexp card from.

I've seen a lot of thin mini ITX boards with this mini PCIe.  I'm only really familiar with high end gaming ATX boards, so this is something new to me.  How do you use a mini PCIe as a PCIe x1?  I did spend a little time googling but I didn't find any good information.

[rickca]

On 10/3/2017 at 7:59 PM, rickca said:

I have an old X25-M SSD.  It is MLC (not SLC like X25-E) but it is SATA II.  I may reinstall it as my boot drive and try this SOtM SATA II filter.  Given @romaz's enthusiastic endorsement, it seems like a worthwhile thing to try.  I can set up dual boot and use my Samsung 950 PRO only for my gaming/productivity configuration.

 

I actually found my X25-M and installed a fresh instance of Windows 10 Pro on it.  I may give the SOtM SATA II filter a try with it and compare to my production Samsung 950 PRO as boot drive.  I also plan to try either AO or V1.0 of getblackbird if the developer ever gets the beta out there.

[ElviaCaprice]

10 minutes ago, rickca said:

I've seen a lot of thin mini ITX boards with this mini PCIe.  I'm only really familiar with high end gaming ATX boards, so this is something new to me.  How do you use a mini PCIe as a PCIe x1?  I did spend a little time googling but I didn't find any good information.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1312.R-1.TR0.TRC0.A0.H0.TRS1&_nkw=Express+PCI-E+to+Mini+PCI-E+1X+Extension&_sacat=0

[Johnseye]

9 minutes ago, rickca said:

Here's an Apollo Lake board I've found that I really like.  BCM Advanced Research is based in Irvine, CA.  I'd appreciate input from others who are comparing motherboards.

http://www.bcmcom.com/e-ad/eletter_01132017_MX3350N_Intel_Apollo_Lake_N3350_thin_mini_itx.html

 

I like that it has HDMI and DP for when you attach a monitor.  Doesn't seem available yet.

 

4 minutes ago, rickca said:

Optane is PCIe x2 only.  You can't use it in a SATA-only M.2 slot.

 

I was afraid of that.  There is the mini PCIe option.

[rickca]

13 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Doesn't seem available yet.

Yeah, sorry I just called them.  The board is only available in quantities for system integrators at the current time.  It will become available in their e-store in the future.  It was just announced back in August, so I'm a little too early.

[Johnseye]

Just now, rickca said:

Yeah, sorry I just called them.  The board is only available in quantities for system integrators at the current time.  It will become available in their e-store in the future.  It was just announced back in August, so I'm a little too early.

 

Other than the two M.2 slots and that it has HDMI and DP, do you see any other benefits over the Jetway I linked?  

[rickca]

3 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Other than the two M.2 slots and that it has HDMI and DP, do you see any other benefits over the Jetway I linked?  

The BCM board has 2 x Intel i211-AT vs the Jetway has 2 x Realtek RTL8111G ... I just prefer Intel NICs.

The BCM board has an M.2 slot that supports PCIe x2, so you could use Optane.

 

Nothing spectacular.  I agree that I like DP and HDMI.  It's just a more up-to-date board than thin mini ITX boards currently available from the big boys of the industry.  Obviously, BCM gets the board made in Taiwan.

[Johnseye]

15 minutes ago, rickca said:

The BCM board has 2 x Intel i211-AT vs the Jetway has 2 x Realtek RTL8111G ... I just prefer Intel NICs.

The BCM board has an M.2 slot that supports PCIe x2, so you could use Optane.

 

Nothing spectacular.  I agree that I like DP and HDMI.  It's just a more up-to-date board than thin mini ITX boards currently available from the big boys of the industry.  Obviously, BCM gets the board made in Taiwan.

 

hmm the M.2 slot supporting the Optane has me thinking.  Did they give any indication when it would be available to the public?

[rickca]

12 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

hmm the M.2 slot supporting the Optane has me thinking.  Did they give any indication when it would be available to the public?

No, sales said they couldn't give me a date.  I'm sure the major motherboard manufacturers will come out with something similar, but it may be some time.  I don't think I would wait if this is something you're ready to do.  I'm still on the fence about whether I want to go with Roy's approach or the @austinpop trifecta.

 

I'm really bad like this, I always want to get the most current technology ... and I spent way too much time googling to even find that motherboard.  It's better to actually implement something proven and enjoy it.  You make faster progress that way.

 

Roy has pretty much convinced me that the latest technology does not mean better sound.  In many cases, the opposite it true.

 

[Johnseye]

11 minutes ago, rickca said:

No, sales said they couldn't give me a date.  I'm sure the major motherboard manufacturers will come out with something similar, but it may be some time.  I don't think I would wait if this is something you're ready to do.  I'm still on the fence about whether I want to go with Roy's approach or the @austinpop trifecta.

 

 

Here's an Asus version.  Coming soon though.  Looks like the new old stuff is being released.  Probably after a certain amount of time while the bugs get sorted since these mobos are supposed to be used in environments where reliability is critical.

 

http://www.aaeon.com/en/p/mini-itx-emb-apl1

[rickca]

7 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Here's an Asus version.  Coming soon though.  Looks like the new old stuff is being released.  Probably after a certain amount of time while the bugs get sorted since these mobos are supposed to be used in environments where reliability is critical.

 

http://www.aaeon.com/en/p/mini-itx-emb-apl1

You can't use Optane (it needs 22 x 80mm M.2) on that motherboard.  We better continue this via PM if you want, I think this is too much detail to be of general interest.

[ElviaCaprice]

Johnseye, I like that Jetway mobo you picked.  DVI is good.  Forget the M2 or Optane, you really don't need it, experiment with it, but I would go all the way and get 2 tXUSBexp cards utilizing 1 point of the sCLK-EX for both.   Run your OS, if not also data, from a HDD hooked up to one of those tXUSBexp cards.  The other for streaming to the DAC.  What really will matter is how well SOtM replaces clocks on the mobo.

 

What do I know?  This is all new.  Might be unnecessary?  The critical features are the mobo, tXUSBexp card running off the sCLK-EX, all 4 points.  Might be best off going as small as possible, mobo, for low impedance, instead of features.

[Lebouwsky]

8 hours ago, rickca said:

I always want to get the most current technology ... and I spent way too much time googling to even find that motherboard.  It's better to actually implement something proven and enjoy it.  You make faster progress that way.

 

Sometimes it's better to hold your breath and wait for the dust to settle down. It's a new wave of insight that will probably lead to further improved products from different manufacturers. I would love to be a pioneer, but it takes risks and therefore a very large wallet.

 

If one, with a wallet like mine, does want to invest, make sure it's future proof, like a good psu or pc case. Or experiment with "older" second hand stuff, which is just as fun.

 

Right now I'm experimenting with a 12v passive cooled celleron j1900 pc. Really fun, adjusting the proven techniques of the recent past. It costed me 150 euro's.

 

Just an opinion, with great respect to the pioneers out here.

[lmitche]

My view of the motherboard debate, low power, (j1900 or n3700) or high power (i7-6700k - i7 8700k), is a basic choice between up-sampling in a dedicated and proprietary processor, in or close to the DAC, vs. up-sampling in a commodity machine using a third party tools like HQplayer.

 

Curiously, this thread seems to prove that the benefit of various software and hardware tuning tweaks contribute to improved sound quality in an equal fashion with either solution.  This includes clock replacements, software tweaks like AO, USB cables and gadgets and high quality external power supplies.

 

So the real difference is where the up-sampling occurs. With my "high powered" i7-6700k machine, Hqplayer and low cost IFI microIDSD DAC, up-sampling in a PC to DSD512 results in jaw dropping sound quality that I have never heard in any other system, analog or digital. Many other long term audiophiles that have heard this solution say the same.

 

And of course there are those of you that up-sample with proprietary devices like the Chord Blu MKII and Dave DAC.  While I have never heard this combo, I am sure it is spectacular given what we hear from Roy and the other long term audiophiles posting in this thread.

 

Obviously there are many solutions between these two relative extremes. And lastly, the cost of one solution vs. the other, could be close to 5 or 10 times, with the proprietary solution most expensive.

 

Objectively, it is not clear to me in a one to one comparison which will sound better. I know of no other tool then a pair of ears that can tell us the difference.

 

Anyway, my two cents.

[AmusedToD]

18 minutes ago, lmitche said:

So the real difference is where the up-sampling occurs. With my "high powered" i7-6700k machine, Hqplayer and low cost IFI microIDSD DAC, up-sampling in a PC to DSD512 results in jaw dropping sound quality that I have never heard in any other system, analog or digital. 

 

Well, I think you should listen to some true high end DACs that will smash any DSD upsampling voodoo with simple redbook playback. In fact - there is no comparison at all. As a matter of fact, the Ifi DAC will look and sound like a toy next to those machines, but we are talking very big bucks. 

 

My computer (i7 iMac) can also upsample to DSD512, and while not bad, it’s not necessarily better than regular non upsampled PCM, it’s just different in presentation (and often “softer” than PCM, lacking in energy and slam). Not my cup of tea.