A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Question. In either your lawyer or scientist capacities  do you feel that the switch/SMS combo in B upstream of the SU-1 still add sufficient SQ improvement to justify adding these? My SU-1 outputs I2S to my Directstream DAC so I'm tempted by these improvements but worried they'd get diminished as it's not USB going into the DAC.

 

I guess the other aspect I need to fully figure out is whether it's feasible (and viable in terms of finding someone to do it) to also replace the clock on the SU-1 with the sCLK-EX clock.

 

5 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

I already asked SOTM about modding the SU-1 and they said no.

 

1 hour ago, Bamber said:

Leter from Singxer responded they won't perform any mods.

 

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I don't understand why anyone wants to replace the Crystek 575 in their SU-1.  This clock functions solely for the I2S output and from these testing results is as good or better than the Sclk EX, although they didn't even use the I2S output.

 

 

It is not surprising that manufacturers aren't enthused about modding their gear. SOtM is an exception in that they at least consider mods of non-audio gear, but I think we could all appreciate that manufacturers are busy implementing their roadmap of future products and have neither the time nor inclination to consider mods. What would be proper is to communicate customer expectations, feature requests, and try to raise the  priority of things like clock quality.

 

This whole exercise has led me to a new appreciation of the nuances of and complexities of clocking. While the experience with the sCLK-EX Ultra gear has been a revelation, it is also very encouraging to hear - second hand - about how good the ISO-R is, and first hand, the Singxer SU-1. I think this points to the fact that the eventual performance of a component is what I would term the "effective clock quality." What I mean by this is that sure, a killer clock chip or board can propel a system to better SQ, but the ultimate result is an aggregate of the entire system design. 

 

Nobody knows for sure the "raw" quality differences between the Crystek 575 clock and the sCLK-EX board. But that is academic. What matters is that in aggregate, how do components built using one or the other compare? I am not at all surprised by the quality of the ISO-R, as I am a huge fan of Alex and John. They have a gift for producing amazing gear at very attractive price points. Singxer is a new one for me, but I am similarly impressed.

 

I am really looking forward to trying the ISO-R. My selfish interest in my system is to:

• do a straight comparison by swapping it with the tX-USBultra
• determine SQ benefit from adding it in the chain upstream of the tX like @mozes and @hols

From a group perspective, I suspect there will be more than a passing interest in this config:

• modded switch > sMS-200ultra > ISO-R > modded SU-1 > DAC.

Fun times!

 

5 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

My wallet starts sweating nervously at this stage because if I could get the BigAlMc 'trifecta' of switch, SMS-200 & SU-1 all sharing the sCLK-EX clock then the case for adding a Ref 10 seems a lot stronger! (Rajiv - I hope I haven't infringed upon your 'trifecta' copyright here. Perhaps you can ask Eric as the lawyer ).

 

The possibility to further bump SQ with a high quality, but reasonably priced reference clock like the Cybershaft, or the forthcoming SOtM ref clock, is the next area of intense curiosity for me.

 

This is the one area where the dX with reference clock input could have an edge. But what if the next-gen Singxer also included a reference clock input? So use your voices as customers. Ask SOtM for an improved dX that better exploits the sCLK-EX (to my point about a DDC being about more than just the clock), and to support an I2S output. Ask Singxer to give you a next gen DDC that obviates the need for mods, and enables a ref clock input.

 

[BigAlMc]

Yeah some good points raised there (as usual) @austinpop

 

I've discussed some of this stuff on the PS Audio forums as they have a great model where you can interact directly with the designers of the product (like Ted Smith for the Directstream DAC) and the CEO (Paul McGowan).

 

I've even shamelessly asked them when they'll produce an audiophile switch  and then enjoyed it when other PSA customers jump onto that and +1 it....

 

 

[BigAlMc]

14 minutes ago, austinpop said:

From a group perspective, I suspect there will be more than a passing interest in this config:

• modded switch > sMS-200ultra > ISO-R > modded SU-1 > DAC.

 

Hi @austinpop

 

Quick question. If buying the above from SOTM (SU-1 excluded obviously) and asking them to mod a switch as part of that. Would buying an SMS-200ultra still make more sense than buying a cheaper SMS-200 and asking/paying them to mod it for the sCLK-EX?

 

i.e. is the SOTM shopping list:

sCLK-EX

Modded switch

SMS-200  (to be modded)

 

or

 

sCLK-EX

Modded switch

SMS-200ultra

 

Thanks,

Alan

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, BigAlMc said:

I've discussed some of this stuff on the PS Audio forums as they have a great model where you can interact directly with the designers of the product (like Ted Smith for the Directstream DAC) and the CEO (Paul McGowan).

 

I've even shamelessly asked them when they'll produce an audiophile switch  and then enjoyed it when other PSA customers jump onto that and +1 it....

 

I'm a big fan of PS Audio, and consider the P5 AC regenrator in my system to be one of most significant upgrades I've made.

 

I do think we have to cut manufacturers a break. As consumers, we have the luxury to try all kinds of wacky mods and empirical improvements, but it's quite another thing for manufacturers to sell products - that they have to stand behind, and support - that bake in these ideas without a lot more testing and solid engineering.

 

On the flip side, I do find it disappointing when vendors (not naming names, but some even here on CA) start pooh-pooh'ing findings or bad mouthing competitors.

 

So it's two sides of the coin. The good manufacturers ones can navigate this stuff way better than the others.

[rickca]

30 minutes ago, limniscate said:

Technically, I have two switches: one in my master bedroom's closet, which is also where the router and modem are located, and the other is the SOtM-modded switch.  My understanding of bridged mode is that it cuts out the switch and router in my master bedroom's closet, and the data goes directly from my PC to the SOtM-modded switch to the sMS-200 Ultra.  My audio setup is in my living room. 

 

So I meant that removing the bridge, takes out the SOtM-modded switch.

I should have said I'm familiar with the topology diagrams in the first-post index of this thread.  I didn't know you had another ordinary switch associated with your modem and router, but I think that's immaterial in this context.

 

If your PC is connected to your SOtM-modded switch and then to your sMS-200ultra, that chain is preserved whether you have a bridged ethernet NIC or not.  Where are the music files, are they hosted on the PC itself or do you use a NAS?

 

Sorry if I'm being dense about this.  Seems to me to take the SOtM-modded switch out of the picture, you would need to connect the sMS-200ultra directly to your PC.  Right now, the only way for your PC to communicate with the sMS-200ultra is by going through the SOtM-modded switch.

 

 

 

[limniscate]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

I should have said I'm familiar with the topology diagrams in the first-post index of this thread.  I didn't know you had another ordinary switch associated with your modem and router, but I think that's immaterial in this context.

 

If your PC is connected to your SOtM-modded switch and then to your sMS-200ultra, that chain is preserved whether you have a bridged ethernet NIC or not.  Where are the music files, are they hosted on the PC itself or do you use a NAS?

 

Sorry if I'm being dense about this.  Seems to me to take the SOtM-modded switch out of the picture, you would need to connect the sMS-200ultra directly to your PC.  Right now, the only way for your PC to communicate with the sMS-200ultra is by going through the SOtM-modded switch.

 

 

 

No, that's not the case.  @austinpop was confused by my post as well, so please allow me to clarify.  When I disable the bridge on my PC, I also moved the ethernet cable from the switch to the sMS-200 Ultra so that it was connecting the wall outlet (connected to the switch in my master bedroom's closet) to the sMS-200 Ultra.

 

My files are on my PC.  I don't stream and don't use a NAS.

[rickca]

22 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I think this points to the fact that the eventual performance of a component is what I would term the "effective clock quality." What I mean by this is that sure, a killer clock chip or board can propel a system to better SQ, but the ultimate result is an aggregate of the entire system design. 

Very good point.  This focus on just the clock is like focusing only on which DAC chip is inside a DAC.  Overall design and implementation is just as important as the components, if not more so.  You can give me prime ingredients, but I still can't cook a good meal.

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Hi @austinpop

 

Quick question. If buying the above from SOTM (SU-1 excluded obviously) and asking them to mod a switch as part of that. Would buying an SMS-200ultra still make more sense than buying a cheaper SMS-200 and asking/paying them to mod it for the sCLK-EX?

 

Alan, I know it's a bit confusing. You need at least one Ultra component, because it embeds the sCLK-EX board. You then need the other component to be be modded to accept the sCLK-EX input.

 

So for your example, you need:

• sMS-200ultra
• switch, mod for sCLK-EX

 

I think this link actually allows you to order the combo, if you are US or Australia based. https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200ultra-audio-network-player-mods?variant=41281316428

 

[rickca]

4 minutes ago, limniscate said:

No, that's not the case.  @austinpop was confused by my post as well, so please allow me to clarify.  When I disable the bridge on my PC, I also moved the ethernet cable from the switch to the sMS-200 Ultra so that it was connecting the wall outlet (connected to the switch in my master bedroom's closet) to the sMS-200 Ultra.

 

My files are on my PC.  I don't stream and don't use a NAS.

OK ... now it makes sense!  Thanks.  So it sure is surprising that you found the modded switch a big improvement when you added it, but makes no difference when you take it away.  I'm sure you're going to want to go back and forth a couple more times!

[rickca]

2 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I think this link actually allows you to order the combo, if you are US or Australia based. https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200ultra-audio-network-player-mods?variant=41281316428

I can't seem to reach sotm-usa.com for the past couple of days.  Anyone else?

[austinpop]

4 minutes ago, rickca said:

Very good point.  This focus on just the clock is like focusing only on which DAC chip is inside a DAC.  Overall design and implementation is just as important as the components, if not more so.  You can give me prime ingredients, but I still can't cook a good meal.

 

 

 

This triggered a mental image for me. Remember that show on Food Network many years ago where a celebrity chef would show up unannounced at your door, and cook you a gourmet dinner, based solely on what you happened to have laying around in your fridge and pantry? For me, that's Uptone. 

 

And then you have the gourmet meal at the Michelin rated restaurant? That's your dCS's and your Esoterics. 

 

And then the Mutec's fall in the middle.

 

Just a silly thought. 

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

I can't seem to reach sotm-usa.com for the past couple of days.  Anyone else?

 

No issue here. Just went there a minute ago to find that link...

[BigAlMc]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I think this link actually allows you to order the combo, if you are US or Australia based. https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200ultra-audio-network-player-mods?variant=41281316428

 

Great stuff Rajiv - that really helps! 

 

Thanks,

Alan

[rickca]

7 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

No issue here. Just went there a minute ago to find that link...

This is too weird.  I know I've been able to access that site previously.  I cleared my browser cache and still can't get there.  I sent Kamal a note to see if he can figure it out.  It says it can't resolve the DNS address.  I usually use Chrome, and I just tried MS Edge but I had the same problem  I can reach every other website I want.  Any network gurus out there?

[austinpop]

2 minutes ago, rickca said:

This is too weird.  I know I've been able to access that site previously.  I cleared my browser cache and still can't get there.  I sent Kamal a note to see if he can figure it out.  It says it can't resolve the DNS address.  I usually use Chrome, and I just tried MS Edge but I had the same problem  I can reach every other website I want.  Any network gurus out there?

 

Hmm weird.

 

Fire up nslookup in a command window, and lookup sotm-USA.com? Your DNS server entries may be messed up.

 

Try hitting the site by its IP addy: 23.227.38.32.

 

We can take this to PM.

[limniscate]

21 minutes ago, rickca said:

OK ... now it makes sense!  Thanks.  So it sure is surprising that you found the modded switch a big improvement when you added it, but makes no difference when you take it away.  I'm sure you're going to want to go back and forth a couple more times!

The inconsistent findings are driving me crazy. I'm going to bring over some non-audiphiles again to help me test.

[Superdad]

43 minutes ago, austinpop said:

This triggered a mental image for me. Remember that show on Food Network many years ago where a celebrity chef would show up unannounced at your door, and cook you a gourmet dinner, based solely on what you happened to have laying around in your fridge and pantry? For me, that's Uptone. 

 

Sorry Rajiv, we can't cook anything with the mustard, ramen noodles, and sad looking head of cauliflower you have in your fridge!  Let alone something that sounds like an ISO REGEN or LPS-1.   We're good, but not THAT good! 

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

 

Sorry Rajiv, we can't cook anything with the mustard, ramen noodles, and sad looking head of cauliflower you have in your fridge!  Let alone something that sounds like an ISO REGEN or LPS-1.   We're good, but not THAT good! 

 

But. but ... I just went to Amazon, I mean, Whole Foods!

 

Kidding aside - immense respect for what you guys produce at the price points you do!

[tboooe]

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

ramen noodles

Yummmm...you just made me very very hungry!

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, tboooe said:

Yummmm...you just made me very very hungry!

 

Wow, you're a cheap date Tommy.  

 

Kidding aside, I really enjoyed the in depth reporting here of the past couple of days' trials.  Interesting stuff!  And its further validation for some projects we have been working on (mostly on paper and on the computer until John's lab is set up in his new house.  They are moving in tomorrow, but it will take a bit to get set up.  His might be the only audio engineering lab with quartz work benches!).

[micesol]

7 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

As I also have the Singxer SU-1 (awaiting delivery of the Holo Spring lvl3 DAC), I am looking to get the Kitsune DC conversion kit for the Singxer, but Kitsune has some reservations regarding shipping the thing outside of USA for some reason (or perhaps I got the wrong picture when I contacted Tim, but in our email correspondence he said they don't do international shipping to every country).

 

Anyways, is anyone in the USA willing to buy the thing and then resell it to me (ship it to Europe) and earn a few bucks for the hassle?

 

Nick,

Happy to do this for you.

Michael

[austinpop]

Everybody loves Ramen!

 

[AmusedToD]

9 minutes ago, micesol said:

Nick,

Happy to do this for you.

Michael

 

Hey Michael,

 

I was embarrassed to ask you directly, but thank you very much for offering your assistance here, let's take this to private

[rickca]

3 hours ago, limniscate said:

The inconsistent findings are driving me crazy. I'm going to bring over some non-audiphiles again to help me test.

Sometimes I use my neighbor's kids.  They are 8 and 10.  You would be surprised how helpful they are.  They have no clue what's going on, so no bias.  After 10 minutes of asking 'what's this' and 'what's that' they just enjoy listening.  Then I have to feed them something their Mom won't buy them.

 

I'd ask them to help me with my network problem, but they're busy jailbreaking their new cell phones. 

[TopQuark]

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

1. Compare mR/LPS-1 to sMS-Ultra powered by HDPlex 12V
   • No contest. The SQ improvement was yuge. 
   • Bigger, more dynamic, more resolution, better articulation

 

Great job, guys! 

 

I just want to make sure I am not interpreting this differently.  Do you mean the latter (sMS-200ultra powered by HDPlex 12V) provides significantly better SQ improvement?

 

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

• All switches modded for sCLK-EX and upgraded regulators/capacitors still sound different. To my ears the Zyxel sounded a tad better than the DLink, but my choice of it for modding was dumb luck!

 

I understand from another posting that the connectors are different that may account for the difference in SQ.  Were both switches modded by SOtM?  Are you aware of any difference in how SOtM modded the switches, e.g. regulators, caps, etc?