A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[tapatrick]

51 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Woot!

 

- works as designed....

 

 

Cool! Thanks what counts @austinpop

[austinpop]

Progress update on index... 25%

 

I have now gone through about a quarter of this thread (25 pages) and populated the index on the first page with selected postings, organized by topic. I will continue progress as time permits. Have a look and see what you think so far.

 

Call for volunteers

 

I have 2 topics for which I'd like help in assembling useful posts:

• Computer mods - mobos, NICs, drives, etc
• Adnaco fiber mods

If you want to help, here's what I need. Just assemble useful links to posts in this thread, one link per line, and send to me. I'll add it to the index. No formatting or any other work necessary.

[greenleo]

6 hours ago, mozes said:

@austinpopJust to let you know, I will be doing these tests next week when my VR will have arrived:

1- tX-USBultra vs. Iso-Regen

2- Nimitra>IR>tX>Brooklyn vs. Nimitra>tX>IR>Brooklyn

I think this way we will almost have all the answers that we want so far.

Very much looking forward to your findings.

[greenleo]

6 hours ago, rickca said:

Eric, Rajiv and Moussa I'm certainly looking forward to the results of your experiments.

 

I'm just wondering ... why does it make sense that multiple reclockings with the same quality clock is better than one?  I've read the input from @romaz that the modded switch significantly improves the sound quality vs using only the sMS-200ultra, but that switch mod also includes replacing the regulators and capacitors on the switch.

 

Wouldn't one top quality reclocking be better than multiple reclockings with something less good?

 

I'm not looking for a scientific explanation at this point, just something plausible.  Even without this, if it sounds better, it sounds better!  So carry on.

Just imagine in each passing of the clocks, only part of the harm may be recovered.  Then it wouldn't be too hard to visualize more passing of the clocks would be better.  Two top quality reclocking will still be better than one. The game doesn't change until the point of diminishing returns has been hit.

 

My 2 cents.

[greenleo]

8 hours ago, austinpop said:

Attention, propeller-heads! Mad science experiment alert!

 

I am stoked. Barring any last-minute conflicts, @limniscate and I are getting together next week for an SOtM Ultra-vaganza! 

 

There are far more experiments and potentially interesting questions that we will be able address in a reasonable session time - although, we may decide on followup Ultra-vaganzae as warranted.

 

In the spirit of community, I wanted to open the floor and entertain any experiments you all might have high on your list, but we haven't covered below. I make absolutely no guarantees about whether we will be able to perform these experiments, due to time and other unforeseen constraints.

 

This is the aggregate BoM (bill of materials) we will have on hand:

• 1 x Zyxel switch (sCLK modded)
• 1 x D-Link switch (sCLK modded)
• 1 x sMS-200 (sCLK modded) 6-9V
• 1 x sMS-200ultra 12V
• 1 x tX-USBultra 6-9V
• 1 x dX-USBultra 12V
• 1 x Singxer SU-1 stock PSU
• 4 x LPS-1 supplies
• HDPlex 100W LPS, supplying 2 x 12V rails
• Assorted dCBL-CAT7 and iSO-CAT6 cables and isolators
• Hopefully, I'll be able to use my newfound DIY DC cable skills this weekend to whip up a Canare 4S6 serial cable, to connect 2 x LPS-1s in series to provide 12v.

Note that with this gear, we now have the ability to have up to 6, count 'em, 6 sCLK-EX reclockings in the chain. Do these many reclockings still provide an incremental boost in SQ? More on this below. The baseline chain we'll use is Eric's:

• Roon Core W10 bridged > D-Link modded switch > sMS-200ultra > (USB) > dX-USBultra > (AES) > Yggy DAC

Here are some burning questions we want to answer:

1. What is the improvement due to 2 x LPS-1 over HDPlex on both sMS-200ultra and dX-USBultra?
2. Is sMS-200ultra 12V (fed by 2 x LPS-1) SQ better than modded sMS-200 6-9V (fed by LPS-1 7V)?
3. Add a 5th reclocking in the chain:
   • D-Link modded switch > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > dX-USBultra
4. Add a 6th reclocking in the chain:
   • Zyxel modded switch > D-Link modded switch > sMS-200ultra > tX-USBultra > dX-USBultra
5. Compare modded Zyxel and D-Link switches
6. dX via AES to yggy vs. tX via USB to Yggy
7. Singxer SU-1 vs dX-USBultra
8. Effect of dCBL-CAT7 and iSO-CAT6. Too many experiments here to enumerate, but this may have to wait for the Ultra-vaganza redux.

The floor is open.

Hi,

 

I suggest to compare the following in particular:

Modded switch + 200Ultra to DAC

                             vs

200Ultra+txUSBUltra to DAC

 

Both of them are 3 clocks modded and I always imagine changing of interface will bring harms to the SQ.  If they sound identical, then probably number of clocks matters much.  If switch + 200Ultra wins, then the harm of LAN is major.  If 200Ultra+txUSBUltra wins, then the harm of USB is major.

 

Check if you think the above are sensible and worth an experiment?

 

It would be great if two txUSBUltra may be against one 200Ultra as well.  However, this is not possible right now.

[austinpop]

27 minutes ago, greenleo said:

I suggest to compare the following in particular:

Modded switch + 200Ultra to DAC

                             vs

200Ultra+txUSBUltra to DAC

 

Actually, I've done this before, both myself, with @limniscate, and even @romaz has reported on this. 

 

In out setups, the effect of the two (switch vs. tX) were both positive but different. Both added more timbre, articulation, and resolution. However, the tX added greater solidity and improved bass, while the switch enlarged the soundstage, and created more air around instruments. So I would be hard pressed to pick one over the other.

[TopQuark]

@limniscateand @austinpop I wish you have Paul Hynes in the chain up to the DAC.  Where are you guys located at?  I have a spare in Silly Valley area if you are nearby.

 

[mozes]

55 minutes ago, greenleo said:

 If switch + 200Ultra wins, then the harm of LAN is major.  If 200Ultra+txUSBUltra wins, then the harm of USB is major.

Can you pls elaborate a bit on your logic? There is something interesting in your thinking.

 

[greenleo]

50 minutes ago, mozes said:

Can you pls elaborate a bit on your logic? There is something interesting in your thinking.

 

Rajiv has reported the two cases are effectively equal in the previous post.  Then it seems we haven't reached the point of diminishing returns.

 

My logic: reclocking from LAN to USB should bring harm because each interface is a weak link, my premise.  Switch + 200ultra uses two clocks to handle LAN.  If this sounds better, then it means LAN's harm is more or less reduced to minimal.  Hence LAN's harm was higher in the chain.  The same logic applies to the 200Ultra + txUSBUltra wins case.  Is my logic clear now.

 

I believe 2 txUSBUltra vs 1 200Ultra would be more revealing.  Unfortunately, it can't be done.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, TopQuark said:

@limniscateand @austinpop I wish you have Paul Hynes in the chain up to the DAC.  Where are you guys located at?  I have a spare in Silly Valley area if you are nearby.

 

 

That would be great. But we're not local, sadly. We're in Austin, TX. You'd have to ship it to us.

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Actually, I've done this before, both myself, with @limniscate, and even @romaz has reported on this. 

 

In out setups, the effect of the two (switch vs. tX) were both positive but different. Both added more timbre, articulation, and resolution. However, the tX added greater solidity and improved bass, while the switch enlarged the soundstage, and created more air around instruments. So I would be hard pressed to pick one over the other.

Sorry that I missed the meaning.  I thought the posts were talking about the additive value of each of the nodded components.  Then it seems the point of diminishing returns hasn't been reached yet. 

[Confused]

@austinpop Good luck with all this! I will enjoy reading about you exploits and findings.  I have to admit that my initial thinking was perhaps similar to @greanleo when reading your kit list.  Now that you have the DX-USB Ultra in the chain, I would be interested in the results with and without the tX-USBultra.  I would see this along the lines of you finding the absolute optimum set-up with all the options available, then establishing the delta reduction, if any, if the tX-USBultra is removed.  I think the logic here is simplifying the set up, and indeed seeing the influence of the removal of one of the more expensive components in the chain.  Just curious!  In fairness, I can see that you consider that the tX-USBultra has already proven it's worth, and the driver here is to add more clocked devices to the chain, not remove them, so essentially this goes back to how I started this post, I will follow all this with much interest, and good luck!

[austinpop]

8 hours ago, Confused said:

@austinpop Good luck with all this! I will enjoy reading about you exploits and findings.  I have to admit that my initial thinking was perhaps similar to @greanleo when reading your kit list.  Now that you have the DX-USB Ultra in the chain, I would be interested in the results with and without the tX-USBultra.  I would see this along the lines of you finding the absolute optimum set-up with all the options available, then establishing the delta reduction, if any, if the tX-USBultra is removed.  I think the logic here is simplifying the set up, and indeed seeing the influence of the removal of one of the more expensive components in the chain.  Just curious!  In fairness, I can see that you consider that the tX-USBultra has already proven it's worth, and the driver here is to add more clocked devices to the chain, not remove them, so essentially this goes back to how I started this post, I will follow all this with much interest, and good luck!

 

This would be a good time for me to step back and explain my thinking here. I can see it is causing some confusion.

 

First of all, the kit I listed is the aggregate of my and Eric's gear. I would never dream of buying all this stuff myself! Our respective chains are:

• Rajiv: modded Zyxel switch > modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra
• Eric: modded Dlink switch > sMS-200ultra > dX-USBultra (and a Singxer SU-1)

 

So, the theme of the exercise this week is  - now that we have all this gear at our collective disposal, let's take the opportunity to answer some what-if questions!

 

We have already established on my chain that going from 2 reclockings (modded sMS-200) to 3 (add tX-USBultra) to 4 (add modded switch) each added sonic value, and staggering value, at that. Yes, this adds cost, and I'll come back to that. But the question that remains is - what lies beyond 4? 

 

Roy is going down the path of looking upstream, at reclocking his music server, and even his broadband router and modem. What our collection of gear allows us to do is to add a 5th and 6th reclocking, but still downstream of the music server. The purpose of this experiment is simple exploration. Whether or not the findings warrant additional spending is a completely orthogonal consideration.

 

Which brings us to cost. Let's consider a baseline that is quite typical for folks here at CA: a microRendu (+LPS-1) and an ISO-Regen (+LPS-1). Adding up the cost, this works out to about 1690 USD. Contrast this with what I consider the best value SOtM trifecta here - https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200-mod-tx-usbultra?variant=40555632908 - and add in a couple of LPS-1s to power. That comes out to 2540 USD.  This is a difference of 850 USD.

 

(Clarification: I know I have 3 LPS-1s in my chain, but I am finding the 3rd isn't strictly necessary, and I may repurpose it elsewhere.)

 

How much of an improvement (or how different) is the Ultra trifecta over the mR/IR baseline? I'll be able to study this when I receive my loaner IR in a few weeks, along with borrowing Eric's mR if he still has it. There are other experiments of interest with the IR, but from a cost perspective, this is the crux (pun intended) of the matter.

 

For me personally, it would take a significant SQ jump to convince me to spend more on this digital front end of my chain. While the outcome of this study will provide interesting insights, it may not correlate with where the next $500 or $1000 I spend on my audio chain will go. Should I spend more here, or say upgrading my DAC or amp? These are personal choices that we all have to make.

[mozes]

29 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

This would be a good time for me to step back and explain my thinking here. I can see it is causing some confusion.

 

First of all, the kit I listed is the aggregate of my and Eric's gear. I would never dream of buying all this stuff myself! Our respective chains are:

• Rajiv: modded Zyxel switch > modded sMS-200 > tX-USBultra
• Eric: modded Dlink switch > sMS-200ultra > dX-USBultra (and a Singxer SU-1)

 

So, the theme of the exercise this week is  - now that we have all this gear at our collective disposal, let's take the opportunity to answer some what-if questions!

 

We have already established on my chain that going from 2 reclockings (modded sMS-200) to 3 (add tX-USBultra) to 4 (add modded switch) each added sonic value, and staggering value, at that. Yes, this adds cost, and I'll come back to that. But the question that remains is - what lies beyond 4? 

 

Roy is going down the path of looking upstream, at reclocking his music server, and even his broadband router and modem. What our collection of gear allows us to do is to add a 5th and 6th reclocking, but still downstream of the music server. The purpose of this experiment is simple exploration. Whether or not the findings warrant additional spending is a completely orthogonal consideration.

 

Which brings us to cost. Let's consider a baseline that is quite typical for folks here at CA: a microRendu (+LPS-1) and an ISO-Regen (+LPS-1). Adding up the cost, this works out to about 1690 USD. Contrast this with what I consider the best value SOtM trifecta here - https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200-mod-tx-usbultra?variant=40555632908 - and add in a couple of LPS-1s to power. That comes out to 2540 USD.  This is a difference of 850 USD.

 

(Clarification: I know I have 3 LPS-1s in my chain, but I am finding the 3rd isn't strictly necessary, and I may repurpose it elsewhere.)

 

How much of an improvement (or how different) is the Ultra trifecta over the mR/IR baseline? I'll be able to study this when I receive my loaner IR in a few weeks, along with borrowing Eric's mR if he still has it. There are other experiments of interest with the IR, but from a cost perspective, this is the crux (pun intended) of the matter.

 

For me personally, it would take a significant SQ jump to convince me to spend more on this digital front end of my chain. While the outcome of this study will provide interesting insights, it may not correlate with where the next $500 or $1000 I spend on my audio chain will go. Should I spend more here, or say upgrading my DAC or amp? These are personal choices that we all have to make.

Rajiv, I am probably in a similar situation to yours where I feel that my front end excluding the Dac is somehow at a very high level where I think I should look somewhere else. Right now

I have:

Nimitra + VR mini

tX USBultra + flgship Nikola LPS

IR + LPS-1

 

upgrading the Brooklyn+VR mini is also not straightforward as it is really world class at its price point, and I feel that to significantly improve on it, means I have to step into a scary territory in terms of $$$ e.g Chord Dave level

[Bamber]

23 hours ago, austinpop said:

I am stoked. Barring any last-minute conflicts, @limniscate and I are getting together next week for an SOtM Ultra-vaganza! 

I'm looking forward to your findings with the various chains, wish I could be there to hear them.

 

I've had the sMS-200 Ultra and tX-USBultra in my system for a few days now.

[ElviaCaprice]

7 minutes ago, mozes said:

Rajiv, I am probably in a similar situation to yours where I feel that my front end excluding the Dac is somehow at a very high level where I think I should look somewhere else. Right now

I have:

Nimitra + VR mini

tX USBultra + flgship Nikola LPS

IR + LPS-1

 

upgrading the Brooklyn+VR mini is also not straightforward as it is really world class at its price point, and I feel that to significantly improve on it, means I have to step into a scary territory in terms of $$$ e.g Chord Dave level

Mozes, to look elsewhere is the smart move.  Why not continue the removal of the components off the direct AC grid?  Starting with amp and speakers.  Removing my AC powered mono amps and Maggies gave me a huge bump in SQ.  I did like Roy and added some highly efficient speakers (Omega 8XRS) and used my Chord dac (2Qute) to drive them (less than 1 watt).  I also aquired a 12V SS amp if I thought I needed more power and would use my PHynes SR7 (on order) to power it.  But the sound is so good out of the 2 Qute, for near field, I doubt I will use the amp and instead upgrade the DAC when Chord releases the new 3Qute (future Hugo 2).

[mozes]

11 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Mozes, to look elsewhere is the smart move.  Why not continue the removal of the components off the direct AC grid?  Starting with amp and speakers.  Removing my AC powered mono amps and Maggies gave me a huge bump in SQ.  I did like Roy and added some highly efficient speakers (Omega 8XRS) and used my Chord dac (2Qute) to drive them (less than 1 watt).  I also aquired a 12V SS amp if I thought I needed more power and would use my PHynes SR7 (on order) to power it.  But the sound is so good out of the 2 Qute, for near field, I doubt I will use the amp and instead upgrade the DAC when Chord releases the new 3Qute (future Hugo 2).

That's a great idea, non traditional approach, I like it! I love my Naim and can't see myself getting rid of it. May I ask you what 12V SS amp you got?

I hope Mytek comes up with a Brooklyn 2, that would be a great upgrade path as well

[ElviaCaprice]

3 minutes ago, mozes said:

That's a great idea, non traditional approach, I like it! I love my Naim and can't see myself getting rid of it. May I ask you what 12V SS amp you got?

I hope Mytek comes up with a Brooklyn 2, that would be a great upgrade path as well

A Temple Bantam Gold, bought it used for $175.  Can power up to 30W, integrated volume control, single RCA input, speaker outputs.  Dont know if I could recommend it until I have a chance to try out the SR7 with it.  SQ isnt even close vs 2qute (solo), amp powered via switching supply.

Im sure there are other power supplies that can be DC powered.  Or as you mentioned, a new dac/amp.

Just some food for thought.

[austinpop]

May I humbly ask we not go down the path of "what part of my system should I upgrade next?" 

 

While this thread is hardly a model for staying on-topic,  a question like the above is so open-ended, it would just veer into chaos.

[beautiful music]

I don't know if someone here had a Chord Dave and will consider Chord Blu2 in the future like @romaz to see what Blu2 will add to this trifecta vs SOtM Ultra and IR devices

[mozes]

28 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

A Temple Bantam Gold, bought it used for $175.  Can power up to 30W, integrated volume control, single RCA input, speaker outputs.  Dont know if I could recommend it until I have a chance to try out the SR7 with it.  SQ isnt even close vs 2qute (solo), amp powered via switching supply.

Im sure there are other power supplies that can be DC powered.  Or as you mentioned, a new dac/amp.

Just some food for thought.

Great stuff thanks for the info. Very good food for thought!

[mozes]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

May I humbly ask we not go down the path of "what part of my system should I upgrade next?" 

 

While this thread is hardly a model for staying on-topic,  a question like the above is so open-ended, it would just veer into chaos.

Good point Rajiv this can be very broad and will drift us away from the purpose of this thread

[greenleo]

7 hours ago, mozes said:

Rajiv, I am probably in a similar situation to yours where I feel that my front end excluding the Dac is somehow at a very high level where I think I should look somewhere else. Right now

I have:

Nimitra + VR mini

tX USBultra + flgship Nikola LPS

IR + LPS-1

 

upgrading the Brooklyn+VR mini is also not straightforward as it is really world class at its price point, and I feel that to significantly improve on it, means I have to step into a scary territory in terms of $$$ e.g Chord Dave level

Do for DAVE!  I doubt I'll regret☺

[greenleo]

7 hours ago, Bamber said:

I'm looking forward to your findings with the various chains, wish I could be there to hear them.

 

I've had the sMS-200 Ultra and tX-USBultra in my system for a few days now.

Do you like the ultra combo?  Which is the master?

[greenleo]

6 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

I don't know if someone here had a Chord Dave and will consider Chord Blu2 in the future like @romaz to see what Blu2 will add to this trifecta vs SOtM Ultra and IR devices

I'll if I've a DAVE and enjoy live music.  Stopping detour to avoid derail my most favorite thread.