A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[micesol]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

And if our piece--with its galvanic isolation and USPCB for direct placement at the DAC--comes out equal or on top, will you guys complain if I triple the price to match at $990? 

 

If it betters the SOtM, shouldn't you be charging $1299? :-)

[ElviaCaprice]

I have at the moment put SoTM upgrades on the back burner.  I will go with the new server (12V), ISO Regen, Chord 2Qute, all components powered with superb power supplies, including a new 12V integrated amp (if needed) along with Omega speakers. 

Why?  I feel I need more clarity on what exactly the upgraded clocking (master clock) can bring and the value for the money/resale capability.  Also if we are taking the last clock (most important) to the DAC or even in the DAC, to heart, then I found these words by Rob Watts concerning Chord DAC's interesting and maybe we need to consider replacement of this clock as part of the solution. 

"all of my DAC's do indeed have a crystal oscillator at 104.25 MHz"

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-243#post-13509387

[seeteeyou]

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/?page=83#comment-665731

Quote

He also believes this card with the sCLK-EX may be his very best audiophile component, better than the sMS-200ultra and tX-USBultra.

 

48 MHz for tX-USBexp and 25 MHz for ISO REGEN respectively, then maybe 12 MHz (it looked like T120 in the picture of XTAL2 below but the frequency could be something else?) for Atmel USB input chip ATSAM3U1C and 104.25 MHz for Chord DAC afterwards. I guess that's the ideal setup with all four outputs of sCLK-EX since we're taking care of everything related to USB plus the DAC itself?

 

http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/ATSAM3U1C

http://www.atmel.com/Images/Atmel-6430-32-bit-Cortex-M3-Microcontroller-SAM3U4-SAM3U2-SAM3U1_Datasheet.pdf

 

 

[beautiful music]

On 6/17/2017 at 8:16 PM, romaz said:

 

My guess is that people will find that the two will perform very close and one may be better than the other depending on personal tastes and your system's needs.  The fact that John and Alex obtained an eye diagram for the ISO Regen and confirmed the integrity of its USB output says a lot.  People assume their USB output (which includes the integrity of their USB cable) is high quality based on what they hear but to really know that your USB integrity is as good as it can be, you need to get an eye diagram of your USB signal at all the bitrates that you listen to (Redbook and higher) and so in my view, the fact that they have done this is a big deal.  

 

If price is a high priority, I doubt you can beat the value of the ISO Regen.  If you are looking to clock a stack of components and desire the future option of adding a master clock, then SOtM is your only option.

 

Regardless of which path you take, I don't see any losers here.

What about if you will combine IR with tXUltra?

This observation will be quite interesting things.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, sadekkhalifa said:

What about if you will combine IR with tXUltra?

This observation will be quite interesting things.

 

@mozes already reported he got a huge bump in SQ with going from:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

 

to:

 

Nimitra > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

[beautiful music]

23 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

@mozes already reported he got a huge bump in SQ with going from:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

 

to:

 

Nimitra > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

1

what about if he switches to the following arrangement:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen > Brooklyn

 

This will give us an indication of which one is better as the best clock should be closest to a DAC

[InegoMontoya]

19 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I have at the moment put SoTM upgrades on the back burner.  I will go with the new server (12V), ISO Regen, Chord 2Qute, all components powered with superb power supplies, including a new 12V integrated amp (if needed) along with Omega speakers. 

Why?  I feel I need more clarity on what exactly the upgraded clocking (master clock) can bring and the value for the money/resale capability.  Also if we are taking the last clock (most important) to the DAC or even in the DAC, to heart, then I found these words by Rob Watts concerning Chord DAC's interesting and maybe we need to consider replacement of this clock as part of the solution. 

"all of my DAC's do indeed have a crystal oscillator at 104.25 MHz"

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-243#post-13509387

Thank you for the pointer to the comment. Mr. Watts comments re: increased correlated jitter with a femto clock are intriguing.

 

I'm thinking of going the same way as you with my system, waiting for things to sort out with SOtM and/or Sonore.

 

May I ask what power supplies you are using from wall to first audio component? Nice to learn from the experienced.

[austinpop]

19 minutes ago, sadekkhalifa said:

what about if he switches to the following arrangement:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen > Brooklyn

 

This will give us an indication of which one is better as the best clock should be closest to a DAC

 

He recently posted that he shorted out his VR Mini PS, so give him a break!

[greenleo]

27 minutes ago, sadekkhalifa said:

what about if he switches to the following arrangement:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen > Brooklyn

 

This will give us an indication of which one is better as the best clock should be closest to a DAC

Given that such a report hasn't come out after such a long time, I suspect it will never come out.

[ElviaCaprice]

17 minutes ago, InegoMontoya said:

 

 

May I ask what power supplies you are using from wall to first audio component? Nice to learn from the experienced.

 

Waiting on a Paul Hynes SR7 MR4 12V to completely isolate my audio system.  Also it helps to have an isolation transformer.

[mozes]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

@mozes already reported he got a huge bump in SQ with going from:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

 

to:

 

Nimitra > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra > Brooklyn

Yes it was a big improvement. I really didn't expect the IR to add anything to the tX but it did and in a big way!

Keep in mind that I don't use end points in my system. 

[mozes]

4 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

what about if he switches to the following arrangement:

 

Nimitra > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen > Brooklyn

 

This will give us an indication of which one is better as the best clock should be closest to a DAC

Unfortunately, No music till another week when my VR Mini comes back 

[beautiful music]

16 hours ago, mozes said:

Unfortunately, No music till another week when my VR Mini comes back 

Thank you for your feedback @mozes awaiting for your assessments.

[beautiful music]

I'm curious to know if someone did this before or have a good idea to tell me if i will use multiple ISORegen as the following will enhancing the sonic to next level:

 

sMS-200Ultra > IR > tXUSBUltra > IR > DAC

 

Or just the single IR will be fine and no need to additional IR

[Emerald Core]

3 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

I'm curious to know if someone did this before or have a good idea to tell me if i will use multiple ISORegen as the following will enhancing the sonic to next level:

 

sMS-200Ultra > IR > tXUSBUltra > IR > DAC

 

Or just the single IR will be fine and no need to additional IR

 

Or dCS network bridge>DAC

[beautiful music]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

That seems quite over the top to me.  Just a single ISO REGEN should be fine Sadek. 

This is the answer from Alex in another thread 

[seeteeyou]

 

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/allo-reclocker-dac-amp-for-raspberry-pi/16263

Quote

Allo DACs together with reclocker (127$/ 153$) are certainly much better than Audiophonics I-Sabre V3 DAC ES9023 (83$), and almost on the level of Antelope Zodiac+ (2500$).

 

Quote

For me Piano 2.1 PCM 5142 DAC sounded better than Piano PCM 5122, and was almost impossible to differentiate Piano 2.1 PCM 5142 DAC form Antelope Zodiac+ with exception of high frequency handling.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/allo-boss-dac-review/20575

Quote

Also I compared the Boss to combination of Kali clocker and Piano DAC. I didn’t believe what I heard… the Boss was so much better!!!
Boss sounded much more colorful, dynamic, with rich bass, broad sound volume, and wide stereo base. Kali+Piano in comparison was still giving accurate sound, but more flat and short.

 

Quote

Same excellent impression from the Boss DAC here. I now use it in my main rig. Tried to power the Pi with an Uptone lps1 and did not notice a difference. Will do some further tests but I doubt my first impressions will change.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/allo-digione-board/18564

Quote

BTW...we made one last change on production units. We seen now the jitter at 0.411ps

 

Quote

 

uRendu , SOtM and USBridge have USB outputs. Thats why I was saying its easier to compare.

 

As of right now...we are not aware of anything on the market that has the same clean output and low jitter on spidif , like DigiOne. There is simply nothing like it from a technical point of view.
The real test is in your hands, How does the low jitter/noise translate to SQ in your system. Please share after testing.

 

 

VERY interesting stuff for those of us who would like to stay away from USB altogether.

 

And then they've got something nice for someone who would like to stick with USB with IR as well as tX-USBultra etc.

 

https://allo.com/sparky/usbridge.html

http://www.forum-hifi.fr/thread-4505.html

http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/interfaces/allo-usbridge-usb-interface-sparky-emmc-16gb-acrylic-case-p-12073.html

Performance seemed to be pretty good with the default clocks from NDK, let's imagine the potential once we've replaced them with sCLK-EX or even adding REF 10 on top of that.

 

They've got all bases covered as well - USB, S/PDIF, and I2S

 

http://sparkyforum.allo.com

 

Maybe that's the way to go if we're building an audiophile Roon endpoint with an integrated DAC via I2S connection, that's easier to keep all four clock cables under 30 cm while having the luxury of feeding that DAC with sCLK-EX.

[greenleo]

13 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

This is the answer from Alex in another thread 

I would still recommend to try it before making conclusions even I have due respect to Alex.

 

If the answer is proven true, then lots of products will be out of business.

[beautiful music]

19 minutes ago, greenleo said:

I would still recommend to try it before making conclusions even I have due respect to Alex.

 

If the answer is proven true, then lots of products will be out of business.

 

In fact, i already purchased IR but i can't afford to purchase another one to try multiple IR unless @Superdad lent me additional one .

[rickca]

Re the SOtM master clock input feature.  It only makes sense to have this feature on a component that hosts the sCLK-EX board, is that right?  IOW if you get a tX-USBultra and use two of the clocks to upgrade an sMS-200 to an sMS-200ultra, you only want the master clock input on the tx-USBultra?  Isn't the master clock input a feature of the sCLK-EX board itself?

[seeteeyou]

The sCLK-EX board itself is a separate component and theoretically it could be installed anywhere, although the proximity to the modified component is a high priority.

 

In other words, we've gotta keep the clock cable(s) really short and obviously we're installing sCLK-EX board inside the chassis of tX-USBultra in this case.

 

The master clock input is an option for $150

 

http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/shop/sclk/

http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/sclk-ex/

Quote

External master clock input : Optional
  Input frequency : 10MHz (Optional other frequency available)
  Isolated 50Ω external clock input : U.FL connector x 1
  Isolated 75Ω external clock input : MCX connector x 1
  Differential clock signal input & internal distribution

 

It's also mentioned in the manual as shown below

 

https://www.docs.sotm-audio.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=manuals:sclk-ex_operating_instructions_rev1.6_-_en.pdf#page=7

 

Basically we've gotta pay for this option if we're interested in adding Mutec REF 10 in the future:

 

Isolated 75Ω external clock input : MCX connector x 1

 

And then we'll also have to invest in one of those coaxial cables terminated with 75Ω BNC connectors on both ends. Habst made one with a separate ground wire and romaz will test it out soon

 

http://www.habst.de/index.php/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.html

 

Acoustic Revive also made another one called CLOCK-1.0BNC-TripleC-FM with Hitachi Metals FINEMET

 

http://pro.acoustic-revive.com/clock-1-0bnc-triplec-fm/

http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/products/elec/tel/p02_21.html

 

They even made an isolated one with DC 10V ~ 15V input

 

http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/dsix1/dsix1_01.html

http://www.acoustic-revive.com/japanese/dsix1/dsix1_01.html

http://product.rakuten.co.jp/product/-/a817593473e7cace92b29df421bf5a70/

 

Entreq made quite a few BNC cables and they're similar to that one from Habst with separate connectors for their ground cables

 

 

Yeah, it's still quite a bit of toys once we've decided to throw Mutec REF 10 into the mix.

[rickca]

13 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

Basically we've gotta pay for this option if we're interested in adding Mutec REF 10 in the future

Good post, but I still need an answer to my specific question.

[seeteeyou]

Actually it's gonna be an option for $210 ($990 versus $1,200) if we're adding that master clock input for the sCLK-EX board inside tX-USBultra

 

http://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/shop/tx-usbultra/

 

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Re the SOtM master clock input feature.  It only makes sense to have this feature on a component that hosts the sCLK-EX board, is that right?

 

SOtM master clock input feature (i.e. 75Ω external clock input) could only be added to the sCLK-EX board itself as shown in the manual, though we could theoretically remove the sCLK-EX board and put it anywhere we want.

 

1 hour ago, rickca said:

IOW if you get a tX-USBultra and use two of the clocks to upgrade an sMS-200 to an sMS-200ultra, you only want the master clock input on the tx-USBultra?  Isn't the master clock input a feature of the sCLK-EX board itself?

 

Now I see what you're looking for, let's say we're already owners of the original sMS-200 and then we're paying for that 990 + 210 = $1,200 tX-USBultra. It's like killing two birds with one stone.

 

More specifically, tX-USBultra should include two components inside one chassis. The sCLK-EX board itself is installed inside the same chassis for obvious reasons.

 

And then there's only one place to add the master clock input, it must be added to the sCLK-EX board itself and nowhere else. It must be done by SOtM before tX-USBultra is shipped and we don't have even have any other ways.

 

Basically we'll find one master clock input with one MCX connector (larger one) in addition to two outputs with a pair of U.FL connectors (smaller ones) like this:

It's fairly straightforward when we're connecting Mutec REF 10 to that larger MCX connector.

 

However, we'll have to ask SOtM to find out what's the best way to get the upgrade path done for sMS-200 while investing in tX-USBultra as a "double whammy" so to speak. They'll have to replace the clocks inside an existing sMS-200 anyways and maybe we've gotta send sMS-200 back to Korea?

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Re the SOtM master clock input feature.  It only makes sense to have this feature on a component that hosts the sCLK-EX board, is that right?  IOW if you get a tX-USBultra and use two of the clocks to upgrade an sMS-200 to an sMS-200ultra, you only want the master clock input on the tx-USBultra?  Isn't the master clock input a feature of the sCLK-EX board itself?

 

Rick,

 

You have that exactly right. Only the component with the sCLK-EX card can have the optional reference clock input. And, any benefit from this should (theoretically) accrue to all components fed by the sCLK-EX board.

 

To be verified with listening impressions, of course.

[seeteeyou]

ICYMI - JS posted something relevant to our discussions and it's a good read IMHO

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31857-mutec-ref-10-masterclock/?page=8#comment-677651

Once again I'd like to stress the importance of quality power and clock cables, they could "make or break" the benefits of an excellent clock. Therefore we could very well be talking about a major upgrade or a serious downgrade.

 

Some of them might be believers of the "cables make no differences" camp but the now both quantity (i.e. the length *AND* more importantly the 75Ω impedance) as well as quality are both mission critical.

 

Mutec REF 10 already came with a decent PSU by default so that's a relief. And then we'll have to provide quality power for sCLK-EX with these guys:

 

Paul Hynes Power Supplies
UpTone Audio UltraCap LPS-1
Vinnie Rossi MINI PURE DC-4-EVR