new and better router- lots of dropouts

[firedog]

I was using an all in one ADSL modem/router supplied by my ISP.

Worked fine for streaming music over my network-no problems. Was sort of slow with file transfers.

 

So I decided to get an upscale router and use the ISP supplied box just as a modem.

 

Bought a Linksys ACS1900 - by all accounts a very good device.

 

Problem: I now have constant dropouts when music streaming- every few seconds, sometimes I totally lose the signal. This is over ethernet, not wireless.

 

This isn't a music playback issue: if I use the same hardware and cables-with non network playback- it works fine. If I go back to using just the supplied multi-purpose device for network streaming- all is fine.

 

It's also not an issue from my isp - the intenet speed, etc over the new device is fine.

 

File transfer speed over tne network is also good. Only music playback seems not to transfer easily over the network. The new router is the only change. It doesn't seem to be defective in general, so what could be causing this?

[wgscott]

This is over ethernet, not wireless.

 

I just deleted my suggestion (trying a different channel) after re-reading your post.

 

Either something is amiss in the configuration, or the thing is defective, or you have dog hair in the ethernet jack. Any wired router should be able to cope with the demands of audio streaming.

[Middy]

I use wifi analyzer on play store. The closer the better but u can set your channel away from your neighbours.

I set mine to 5G as they have 2G...

 

Good luck

Dave

 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[firedog]

Thanks for helping. This has gone on for several hours and several attempts at unplugging and restarting the modem and router and doing the setup again. Didn't help. But I've now got it working as it should, even though I'm not sure what I did.

 

Just went back to basics. Turned everything off. Totally unplugged and disconnected everything. Reconnected everything, with extra attention to make sure all connections were good. Turned everything back on - one device at a time, in an order that seemed to make sense: modem, router, server, mRendu. I also removed and reseated the card on the mR that contains the OS, so it would reset.

 

Dropouts have stopped. So two possibilities: a) a non-optimal physical connection somewhere -even though I had checked those previously - maybe something wasn't sitting "just right" even though it was seemingly connected and "worked"; or (b) "network confusion" brought about by the new setup. I'm guessing "a" - some version of the metaphorical "dog hair" somewhere in the system.

 

So disconnecting/ connecting and turning everything off and then restarting seems to have done the trick, even though I still don't know exactly what the problem was.

 

The main thing is that it's working. I obsess and can't leave these things alone until I fix them - even if it takes all day and night. Glad I avoided that.

 

Plus, now I can listen to music.

[wgscott]

If the problem comes back, try updating to to the latest firmware. (Otherwise, don't fix it if it is no longer broken.)

[Man in a van]

When I change a router for another I always disconnect the old router in the software before switching it off/pulling the plug.

 

Not much help now, sorry.

 

atb

 

Ronnie

[TubeLover]

Thanks for helping. This has gone on for several hours and several attempts at unplugging and restarting the modem and router and doing the setup again. Didn't help. But I've now got it working as it should, even though I'm not sure what I did.

 

Just went back to basics. Turned everything off. Totally unplugged and disconnected everything. Reconnected everything, with extra attention to make sure all connections were good. Turned everything back on - one device at a time, in an order that seemed to make sense: modem, router, server, mRendu. I also removed and reseated the card on the mR that contains the OS, so it would reset.

 

Dropouts have stopped. So two possibilities: a) a non-optimal physical connection somewhere -even though I had checked those previously - maybe something wasn't sitting "just right" even though it was seemingly connected and "worked"; or (b) "network confusion" brought about by the new setup. I'm guessing "a" - some version of the metaphorical "dog hair" somewhere in the system.

 

So disconnecting/ connecting and turning everything off and then restarting seems to have done the trick, even though I still don't know exactly what the problem was.

 

The main thing is that it's working. I obsess and can't leave these things alone until I fix them - even if it takes all day and night. Glad I avoided that.

 

Plus, now I can listen to music.

 

Glad to hear things worked out. Any of the routers in that 1900 series are very good, so that clearly wasn't the culprit. Some months ago I eliminated 99% of all problems I had with streaming music, dropouts, lost signals, my IP phone going offline, Tidal, etc. (all but the phone on devices connected by ethernet) by buying the Linksys WRT 1900ACS.

 

JC

[firedog]

Actually, the problem returned. And now I found out something interesting:

 

It only occurs when using the microRendu in HQP NAA mode. If I use one of the other modes - no issues.

 

If I playback using HQP directly from my server over USB (no network player) - no issues.

And: if I replace my mR with a SOtM SMS-100 (basically a similar device with the same basic OS and functionality) - it runs fine as an HQP NAA - on same network, same cabling, etc.

 

So clearly it is some specific issue with the mR and the HQP NAA software. I did try updating the mR OS - no help. Also uninstalled and reinstalled the HQP NAA software on the mR. Didn't help.

 

Have sent support messages to Jussi and Jesus - maybe one of them will figure out a solution.

[zephyr24069]

If you can find another ISP not using ADSL or DSL of any kind, IMHO you should start there. You will not get the best overall speeds possible with DSL-based solutions as they are limited in what they can provide for max downstream speed and further hampered by distance from the exchange, distance from the box on the street, integrity of the copper wire all the way, etc...ADSL is limited to a max of something like 8MB/sec downstream, ADSL2 and ADSL2+ can get up to 24MB/sec downstream under optimal circumstances. Don't know who your provider is and the status/quality of the infrastructure in your area but it all figures in. There is nothing wrong with the Linksys ACS1900 device you are using and you are going about things in the 'right' way trying to make efficient use of the various channels available, etc....

 

 

Assuming you are not bound by DSL-only in your area, look up Charter who utilizes DOCSIS3 level modems (with channel bonding) and offers reliable (in the last 1-2 years, they've improved alot) 50-60MB downstream speeds in many areas. We have that at the house and properly wired, grounded and configured both for the modem itself and the WiFi router & extender attached, we get some very impressive speeds here (>58-62 MB/sec sustained downstream, 4-5MB sustained upstream, verified frequently throughout the day/week) on the 5G channels on our router (Netgear Blackhawk X6 with extender Netgear AC1900 Range Extender to cover the rear part of the house due to distance). I've also heard Comcast through use of channel-bonding, etc...offers some very high speeds as well though I've never used them directly. We get these speeds on our laptops even while we are streaming movies or music from the internet using Pandora, Netflix, VUDU, etc…either on our Samsung SmartTV or Oppo 105D. Drop-outs do occur infrequently but it is generally related to saturation upstream versus how the Wifi + Cable Modem are operating in the house.

 

 

How many devices do you have attaching to the router (cell phones, computers, music server, DVD/SmartTV, etc...)? Are they all separated onto unique or smartly-grouped channels?

 

 

If you are in a locale where ADSL is the only solution, you may have a situation where there are network wiring issues (old wire, exchange/local concentrator, etc...) require you to get your ADSL provider out there with test equipment to look for line continuity, S/N and other issues. For our situation here, with Charter, and at the prior house, we only got where we are due to beating them up in the initial months at each house to find and remove any issues with old external wiring, improper grounding, old concentrators, etc...we would have issues only when it rained hard believe it or not. It all came down in each subdivision (30 miles apart) to them not having replaced concentrators that happened to be outdoors and buried that had developed leaks/issues over time that only showed up when a few inches of rain fell and properly soaked everything.

 

 

Also, not knowing the specifics of your ADSL situation, modem in question, etc....there may be some tweaking your provider can suggest that more closely match your WiFi router with their equipment and to check to ensure there is no overlap between their embedded "all in one" router and the router you are attempting to use.

 

 

Feel free to drop me an private in-mail; we can chat a bit more specifically about what you are seeing. The above is a simple core dump of thoughts and questions; a more structured approach may be needed with your provider and those of us who have faced such issues with the same or similar technology.

[ecwl]

I wonder how OP set up the new router and the ADSL modem. Is the ADSL modem set to bridge mode? Or did OP setup the new router into bridge mode. And do you still have other ethernet connections into the ADSL modem other than the new router? A friend of mine ran into an issue when the ADSL modem was not set into bridge mode and the new router was set into bridge mode because the ADSL modem is not very good at directing traffic so whenever the TV cable box's ethernet connection is downloading from the ADSL modem, the ADSL modem would stop directing traffic to the additional router, causing a complete blackout of the home network. It was pretty insane. We ended up calling the cable company and they turned the ADSL modem into bridge mode and the router to control the DHCP/NAT and plug the TV cable box ethernet connection into the router and everything was resolved. For another friend's system, the solution was reversed, the ADSL modem stays the same to direct traffic but the new router is put into bridge mode to make sure the two didn't interfere. These problems tend to be intermittent because it depends on whether the multiple devices you have is confusing the ADSL modem and the router in terms of where to direct traffic.

[firedog]

I transferred the ADSL modem is into bridge mode from its web interface, with over the phone help from the ISP. The only connections to the modem are the incoming ADSL line and the outgoing ethernet cable that transfers the signal to the router. The modem is doing nothing except transferring the ADSL signal to the router.

 

The ISP told me the unit shuts off all the other functions when in bridge mode. The ADSL definitions for the ISP (PPPoE) are defined in the router. The router is designed to work that way.

 

BTW, My present ISP is the only one available to me. But I don't think there is any connection to the ADSL or ISP here.

 

The problem seems to be some kind of internal network issue only when the mRendu is set to playback in HQP NAA mode. If I switch the mRendu to playback in any other mode - such as RoonReady or Squeezelite, it works fine. This is with all the same cabling, modem, router, etc. I don't change any HW to switch modes in the mR, it switches with a click from its browser based user interface.

 

There must be some network setting that isn't compatible with the mR in HQP NAA mode, but I've played around and can't find anything that makes a difference.

 

Thanks again.

[ecwl]

I see. This is a challenging problem. It's hard to know whether the issue is from some Windows 10 setting, HQPlayer setting or Linksys router setting. Maybe the HQPlayer or MicroRendu people can help you figure this one out.

[bibo01]

I transferred the ADSL modem is into bridge mode from its web interface, with over the phone help from the ISP. The only connections to the modem are the incoming ADSL line and the outgoing ethernet cable that transfers the signal to the router. The modem is doing nothing except transferring the ADSL signal to the router.

 

The ISP told me the unit shuts off all the other functions when in bridge mode. The ADSL definitions for the ISP (PPPoE) are defined in the router. The router is designed to work that way.

 

BTW, My present ISP is the only one available to me. But I don't think there is any connection to the ADSL or ISP here.

 

The problem seems to be some kind of internal network issue only when the mRendu is set to playback in HQP NAA mode. If I switch the mRendu to playback in any other mode - such as RoonReady or Squeezelite, it works fine. This is with all the same cabling, modem, router, etc. I don't change any HW to switch modes in the mR, it switches with a click from its browser based user interface.

 

There must be some network setting that isn't compatible with the mR in HQP NAA mode, but I've played around and can't find anything that makes a difference.

 

Thanks again.

 

I am not sure this can help, but you can try:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index216.html#post544058

[firedog]

I am not sure this can help, but you can try:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index216.html#post544058

 

Thanks. Sounded good. Tried that and it didn't help. But at least my server is optimized for streaming now.

[bibo01]

Thanks. Sounded good. Tried that and it didn't help. But at least my server is optimized for streaming now.

 

It does sound like there is a slight problem in Sonore's implementation of HQP NAA in microRendu, as you said SOtM SMS-100 works fine.

[firedog]

More testing, and it turns out that if I just play straight redbook there aren't any issues with the mR and the HQP NAA. But once I get into hi-res upsampling or straight hi-res playback with the HQP NAA mode, the stuttering occurs. Again, it didn't occur with the other mR playback modes, even with hi-res and DSD.

 

So I had a silly idea. Clearly there is some esoteric communication problem between the mR and my Router. I remembered that I have a high quality network switch - a TP-Link SG1008. It's claim is that it perfectly passes all types of ethernet signals from all types of network hardware.

 

Don't know why it works, but it works:

 

I added the switch in between the router and the mR, thinking that somehow the router would get a more "standard" or "better quality" signal from the switch than it was getting from the mR. I also connected the server to the switch. Result: All the stuttering disappeared. Now playing back all selections upsampled to DSD with the mR.

 

Sort of doesn't make sense that adding an extra box into the mix improved things, but it did.

[lmitche]

While I don't have any experience with ADSL, it is likely that there is a lot of RFI/EMI carried by the outside cable into whatever is connected to it. I place Ethernet isolation transformers on each of my cable connected devices to avoid carrying this crap into the rest of the wired copper plant in the house. You may have a similar problem that was solved by adding another device, a switch in this case, in series.

 

I know, ethernet connections are galvanically isolated, nevertheless I find a great improvement in both network stability and performance with these simple, and ridiculously expensive, isolation transformers on externally connected devices.

[firedog]

While I don't have any experience with ADSL, it is likely that there is a lot of RFI/EMI carried by the outside cable into whatever is connected to it. I place Ethernet isolation transformers on each of my cable connected devices to avoid carrying this crap into the rest of the wired copper plant in the house. You may have a similar problem that was solved by adding another device, a switch in this case, in series.

 

I know, ethernet connections are galvanically isolated, nevertheless I find a great improvement in both network stability and performance with these simple, and ridiculously expensive, isolation transformers on externally connected devices.

 

Yeah, I was planning on trying to add a fiber to ethernet setup into the mix at the time I bought the new router. But Jesus at Sonore said that it isn't for sure that the mR will play properly with fibre in the mix. I sort of don't want to spend a few $hundred on something that won't work - even though it is a pittance compared to what I spend on other stuff.

 

I do have a SOtM Lan isolator/filter between the mR and the rest of the network. That should be doing most of what I need, so that makes it even more surprising that I had this issue.

SOtM, by the way, claims that a high speed (gigabit) network produces better sound than conventional 10/100 networks.

 

I'm sort of waiting to hear some anecdotal evidence from other mR users that they added fiber and it worked fine. Then I might try it just to see if it makes any difference.

[sdolezalek]

I'm sort of waiting to hear some anecdotal evidence from other mR users that they added fiber and it worked fine. Then I might try it just to see if it makes any difference.

 

I haven't done it with the Microrendu, but I did add fiber into the mix with the Sonicorbiter (as the last step between the switch and the Cat6a going to the Sonicorbiter. There is no question it adds latency (at least in my case) and when I did have drop out problems, it made them worse. Like you, I went through a couple of periods of having droputs with no explanation (usually with 24/96 or 24/192 that I was upsampling to DSD128) for what I was doing wrong. I changed ethernet cables, switched switches, changed software settings like Jumbo frames, made sure I had the latest version of Roon, HQP (both desktop and NAA) and Sonicorbiter firmware/software, but couldn't find a definitive cause. I also upgraded the amount of memory in the PC I use to upsample everything to DSD128. I could never pinpoint any one cause, but collectively all the changes added up to no more droputs.

 

Oh, I should add that to my ears, the fiber isolation does make a positive difference, even if I have to wait a second or two longer between songs duie to latency.

[baddog]

Nice troubleshooting Firedog, sounds like the switch does a better job of managing those connections than the router does with its built in ethernet ports. What router are you using BTW?

 

FWIW, I too use a switch for most of my ethernet connections, save for an AppleTV and a Sony Blu Ray player connected to the back of my Asus RT-1900P.

[davide256]

I seriously doubt this is a layer 2 RFI issue. Do you see the same issue if you play a 176 khz recording as you do with a 4x over sampled 44.1 recording?

[Dr Tone]

 

I do have a SOtM Lan isolator/filter between the mR and the rest of the network. That should be doing most of what I need, so that makes it even more surprising that I had this issue.

SOtM, by the way, claims that a high speed (gigabit) network produces better sound than conventional 10/100 networks.

 

Did you try removing it to see if maybe it's causing issues with the new router?

[firedog]

Did you try removing it to see if maybe it's causing issues with the new router?

 

Yeah, that was one of the first things I did ...no difference. Tried it under several different setups - in and out- when I was trying to fix things and it didn't seem to have anything to do with the problem.

 

I'm thinking that's a good thing - the isolator/filter shouldn't be messing up the actual signal at all - just dealing with noise.

[firedog]

Nice troubleshooting Firedog, sounds like the switch does a better job of managing those connections than the router does with its built in ethernet ports. What router are you using BTW?

 

FWIW, I too use a switch for most of my ethernet connections, save for an AppleTV and a Sony Blu Ray player connected to the back of my Asus RT-1900P.

 

I think you are complimenting me to call it troubleshooting...More like a lucky guess. Again, the router is a Linksys ACS1900 which is considered a very good, robust home router.

 

My ethernet network is all Gigabit now, and I do have greatly enhanced file transfer speeds relative to what I had before, which was a main reason I changed my network HW around in the first place.

[firedog]

I seriously doubt this is a layer 2 RFI issue. Do you see the same issue if you play a 176 khz recording as you do with a 4x over sampled 44.1 recording?

 

Basically saw the problem with anything from 24/96 and above - whether native file or upsampling from lower rates.

 

But now it's all working great.

 

Right now I'm listening to Thelonious Monk (Underground) streaming on Tidal, through Roon and upsampled to DSD by HQP to my mRendu. Sounds good and not one dropout. Can't ask for more than that....