Music for free...from a dealer?

[Hailey]

Ok fine. I'll keep my CDs.

 

Happy?

[Sal1950]

When buying a used recording the right to play passes from the seller to the new purchaser. Once one sells or gives away a recording, by law and by morals one should not keep a copy of said recording for themselves. It is not up to the buyer of used recordings to make sure the seller obeys the laws by deleting or erasing any copies of it.

 

No! The purchasers of used products are obeying the law, the only time the law is broken is if the seller doesn’t delete any copies they have upon completing the sale.

Actually many of us care or we would not be advising people to not make illegal copies.

 

We all understand the laws Teresa, they need not be repeated over and over.

The point remains if you are in possession of a used CD that the original owner kept a copy of, you are in possession of stolen property. So if your a person of conscience you would require some level of proof that the original owner no longer retained any copies.

If you buy something at a pawn shop the shop owner is required to ask some detailed questions on the provenance of the item and keep records of the seller. You as a buyer at that shop is reasonably assured that a item you purchase is not stolen property. Minimal admittedly but better than nothing.

 

"I buy used CDs, SACDs, Blu-rays, DVDs, etc. but if a seller says they ripped them and are keeping the copy I would not purchase from them."

So you personally knew every person you obtained the media from, and at least directly asked the question? If so I applaud you.

This is all just hypothetical discussionn on my part, I really don't care either way as I've already stated I think the IA copyright laws are a consumer rip off and AFAIC whatever folks do doesn't bother me either way.

I apologize to everyone for again adding yet another post to the ciaos here, but I thought the "don't ask, don't tell" type of thought line on the receipt of used media by those raising all the hell about anyone being a thief just a bit ridiculous.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Cheers

[tranz]

Ok fine. I'll keep my CDs.

 

Happy?

 

Artists, their families, and those people working in the rapidly declining music industry thank you!

[master]

Artists, their families, and those people working in the rapidly declining music industry thank you!

 

It's pure BS when folks cry the sky is falling on the music/audio industry.

 

The Times They Are a-Changin' and everybody has to live with this change.

 

1. The print/news/media industry has had to adapt. How many folks even buy a newspaper these days?

2. How many folks buy greeting cards anymore? Lets shed a tear for Hallmark.

3. How many folks buy envelopes, stamps, and send snail mail anymore? OMG, the postal employees are all out of jobs now.

4. I do the bulk of my shopping online. I'm sure shopping at supermarkets, Best Buy, and local mom and pop shops is a fraction of what it was in the past. Shame on us for choosing Amazon discounts and the comfort of shopping from home and taking away their business.

5. Shame on us for watching Netflix and running all the local video rentals out of business. We are also killing the weekly broadcast television industry as more and more television networks are now asking for all episodes to made available so they can be watched/streamed on their website as opposed to the weekly broadcast. The ad industry is dead and buried... nobody wants to watch ads anymore.

6. The video game industry should be crying over all the lost sales to smartphones... but instead they change with the times and come up with games like Pokemon Go that earn $200 million in under a month... and that's from smartphone users.

7. Hollywood has continued to thrive with bigger billion dollar movies coming up now and that's with all the piracy. Take a look at all the money Hollywood has made in the last decade... All Time Worldwide Box Office Grosses.

 

I'm sure I can come up with tons more examples, but the point is the sky has fallen over many industries. It's a bigger shame the music industry refuses to adapt because they are full of dinosaurs. But hey let us blame the pirates for declining profits and everything else.

 

PS: An even bigger shame on all the folks climbing the high moral horse here on this thread instead of laying blame where it belongs... with the labels, studios, executives, etc. Honestly guys... do you even hear yourselves or are you so full of Schiit?

[Sal1950]

Ok fine. I'll keep my CDs.

 

Happy?

Let me make you an offer you can't refuse.

[mordante]

It's pure BS when folks cry the sky is falling on the music/audio industry.

 

The Times They Are a-Changin' and everybody has to live with this change.

 

1. The print/news/media industry has had to adapt. How many folks even buy a newspaper these days?

2. How many folks buy greeting cards anymore? Lets shed a tear for Hallmark.

3. How many folks buy envelopes, stamps, and send snail mail anymore? OMG, the postal employees are all out of jobs now.

4. I do the bulk of my shopping online. I'm sure shopping at supermarkets, Best Buy, and local mom and pop shops is a fraction of what it was in the past. Shame on us for choosing Amazon discounts and the comfort of shopping from home and taking away their business.

5. Shame on us for watching Netflix and running all the local video rentals out of business. We are also killing the weekly broadcast television industry as more and more television networks are now asking for all episodes to made available so they can be watched/streamed on their website as opposed to the weekly broadcast. The ad industry is dead and buried... nobody wants to watch ads anymore.

6. The video game industry should be crying over all the lost sales to smartphones... but instead they change with the times and come up with games like Pokemon Go that earn $200 million in under a month... and that's from smartphone users.

7. Hollywood has continued to thrive with bigger billion dollar movies coming up now and that's with all the piracy. Take a look at all the money Hollywood has made in the last decade... All Time Worldwide Box Office Grosses.

 

I'm sure I can come up with tons more examples, but the point is the sky has fallen over many industries. It's a bigger shame the music industry refuses to adapt because they are full of dinosaurs. But hey let us blame the pirates for declining profits and everything else.

 

PS: An even bigger shame on all the folks climbing the high moral horse here on this thread instead of laying blame where it belongs... with the labels, studios, executives, etc. Honestly guys... do you even hear yourselves or are you so full of Schiit?

 

Damn I have seldom read a more self justifying piece of thrash.

 

You are a typical person of the era. Blame everyone around you while you think you are the 2nd coming.

[17629v2]

"With all the slanderous calling of "thief" being thrown around here then ebay could be accused of selling stolen property without some similar supporting document, no?"

 

You can accuse anyone of doing anything, but the answer to your question is no. Ebay is not the seller. As long as they have no reason to believe that a product listed on their site is stolen, it has nothing to do with them.

[master]

Damn I have seldom read a more self justifying piece of thrash.

 

You are a typical person of the era. Blame everyone around you while you think you are the 2nd coming.

 

No sir you are typical of the IQ that goes around these parts.

 

Dinosaurs went extinct in the real world and in business too they will go extinct.

 

It's obvious you didn't get anything else...

[tranz]

No sir you are typical of the IQ that goes around these parts.

 

Dinosaurs went extinct in the real world and in business too they will go extinct.

 

It's obvious you didn't get anything else...

 

You are utterly missing the point.

 

The audio industry has adopted a lot as well e.g. with the streaming services, online audio shops where you can pay for downloading an album, youtube channels, music in games. And no doubt it will continue to change.

 

What some get irritated with, and the point of this thread, is the cavalier attitude to not paying for the music that is enjoyed.

 

In the process, instead of thanking the artists for their effort by paying for the entertainment, they are given a big middle finger and stolen from.

 

From a consumer standpoint I would like a greater selection of music and more music from my fav artists, not less.

 

Is it that hard to part with a few dollars/euros for the music?

 

Strangely, people are okay paying 5 dollars for a coffee at Starbucks. And watch what happens if you run out the store without paying a few times.

 

Enjoy the music. Respect the artist.

[clipper]

The point remains if you are in possession of a used CD that the original owner kept a copy of, you are in possession of stolen property.

 

That is not correct.

[mordante]

No sir you are typical of the IQ that goes around these parts.

 

Dinosaurs went extinct in the real world and in business too they will go extinct.

 

It's obvious you didn't get anything else...

 

Mass behaviour does not justify anything.

 

Humanity is deeply flawed and parasitical in nature. Everyone does is so it must be okay. That is also the major flaw with winner takes all elections. The largest group is seldom the most wise.

[esldude]

Actually there's considerable research saying large groups do well making the right choice. Though elections are not simple choices.

That is also the major flaw with winner takes all elections. The largest group is seldom the most wise.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[mansr]

Mass behaviour does not justify anything.

 

Humanity is deeply flawed and parasitical in nature. Everyone does is so it must be okay. That is also the major flaw with winner takes all elections. The largest group is seldom the most wise.

 

[mordante]

Actually there's considerable research saying large groups do well making the right choice. Though elections are not simple choices.

Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

What is the "right" choice?

 

Large groups tend to choose the conservative option, no change, keep the status quo. Mankind in large is afraid of change. Especially when faced with (economical) uncertainty.

 

Just look at Europe, in many countries the populist conservative parties are gaining votes. Not because they have an answer for the rising problems (immigrants, bad economy etc) but because they are saying things the masses like to hear. Its the immigrants they are stealing our jobs, it's the Muslims they are terrorists etcetera. Always pointing towards others since that is much easier then to actually analyze a problem and look for a long term solution.

 

The invasion of Afghanistan is a prime example. After the attacks on the Twin Towers Afghanistan was invaded. Not because it would achieve anything. Not because it would be a fix to a problem. But because it was what the people wanted. Same with the invasion of Iraq twice.

 

Mankind as whole have the same intelligence as a heard of sheep. A single person can be a smart, highly educated well spoken etcetera. But groups of people are no better then a virus/parasite. Just look ate the overpopulation of the world, and still we keep on breeding.

[17629v2]

You are utterly missing the point.

 

The audio industry has adopted a lot as well e.g. with the streaming services, online audio shops where you can pay for downloading an album, youtube channels, music in games. And no doubt it will continue to change.

 

What some get irritated with, and the point of this thread, is the cavalier attitude to not paying for the music that is enjoyed.

 

In the process, instead of thanking the artists for their effort by paying for the entertainment, they are given a big middle finger and stolen from.

 

From a consumer standpoint I would like a greater selection of music and more music from my fav artists, not less.

 

Is it that hard to part with a few dollars/euros for the music?

 

Strangely, people are okay paying 5 dollars for a coffee at Starbucks. And watch what happens if you run out the store without paying a few times.

 

Enjoy the music. Respect the artist.

 

You're absolutely right. The music industry isn't in decline due to natural market forces, its in decline because people are committing crimes by stealing their product. There's a big difference.

 

"The Times They Are a-Changin' and everybody has to live with this change."

 

Really? We have to live with a change caused by criminal activity.

[Teresa]

We all understand the laws Teresa, they need not be repeated over and over. The point remains if you are in possession of a used CD that the original owner kept a copy of, you are in possession of stolen property.

 

Evidently you don’t understand. The reproduction rights travel with the CD. Any copies of that CD that are in the possession of the seller after they sell the CD are illegal. You cannot possess the rip of a CD you no longer have possession of. It is not the CD that is stolen but the illegal rip of it! Understand now?

 

So if your a person of conscience you would require some level of proof that the original owner no longer retained any copies.

 

If you buy something at a pawn shop the shop owner is required to ask some detailed questions on the provenance of the item and keep records of the seller. You as a buyer at that shop is reasonably assured that a item you purchase is not stolen property. Minimal admittedly but better than nothing.

 

It is not up to the buyer to police the sellers actions. As I said if they said they were going to keep a copy of the CD or other product they were selling I would not purchase as I don’t condone stealing. The expectation is they didn’t like the CD or replaced it with a different version in the same or another format. That said I usually buy used items from Recycled Records, pawn shops and thrift stores.

 

So you personally knew every person you obtained the media from, and at least directly asked the question? If so I applaud you.

 

No. I mostly buy used items from local stores so I can examine the condition of the product itself. On used things I cannot find locally I don’t ask if the seller kept a copy as it is not up to me to police their morals. However, if they say in the ad they ripped the music and are selling the discs as they no longer need them I don't purchase. For example see this ad on CA in which the buyer said in Post 2 “I should add that I have ripped all my SACDs and am selling out my collection.” Eloise pointed out in post 3 that after selling the SACDs he would have no right to keep the rips. There were many good SACDs in this list, you know how much I like SACD, but I and others passed.

 

This is all just hypothetical discussion on my part, I really don't care either way as I've already stated I think the IA copyright laws are a consumer rip off and AFAIC whatever folks do doesn't bother me either way.

 

I disagree, Intellectual Property laws are too lax and don’t offer enough protections for artists and writers. If you want something buy it! If you sell it, never retain any kind of copy of it, be it a computer or CD-R rip of music or a photocopy of a book. Theft is theft in my personal opinion!

 

I apologize to everyone for again adding yet another post to the chaos here, but I thought the "don't ask, don't tell" type of thought line on the receipt of used media by those raising all the hell about anyone being a thief just a bit ridiculous.

 

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Cheers

 

Nothing ridiculous about it, it is not the buyers duty to insure the seller obeys the law and has morals. If the seller volunteers they are a thief, I and many others would refuse to purchase from them.

 

I am not without sin, when I first got on the internet I downloaded free music thinking it must be legal since it was on the internet. I was not only wrong, I was dead wrong, all of that illegal free music has long since been deleted.

 

I had severe financial problems 7 or so years ago, and I ended up having to sell all of my LPs and SACDs and the equipment to play them to keep from being homeless and living on the streets. I thought I was very smart as I used the Audacity app to record my favorites at 24/96 using the tape loop "analog outs" from my preamp to the analog in on my Mac Mini. However over time, with the help of many kind people here I learned that what I did was morally wrong and illegal because I sold the discs. I have since deleted every single one of these music files, bought a SACD/Blu-ray player and spent several years trying to repurchase my favorite SACDs, as well as new recordings released since then. I have even found many of my favorite LPs reissued as SACDs or high resolution downloads.

 

All of my computer music files are now legal, and I keep the receipts. And since I morally feel I have to keep my physical discs, I just play them on my SACD/Blu-ray player.

 

I try to do the right thing, when I discover something I did was wrong, I correct my behavior.

[Teresa]

It's pure BS when folks cry the sky is falling on the music/audio industry.

 

The Times They Are a-Changin' and everybody has to live with this change.

 

1. The print/news/media industry has had to adapt. How many folks even buy a newspaper these days?

2. How many folks buy greeting cards anymore? Lets shed a tear for Hallmark.

3. How many folks buy envelopes, stamps, and send snail mail anymore? OMG, the postal employees are all out of jobs now.

4. I do the bulk of my shopping online. I'm sure shopping at supermarkets, Best Buy, and local mom and pop shops is a fraction of what it was in the past. Shame on us for choosing Amazon discounts and the comfort of shopping from home and taking away their business.

5. Shame on us for watching Netflix and running all the local video rentals out of business. We are also killing the weekly broadcast television industry as more and more television networks are now asking for all episodes to made available so they can be watched/streamed on their website as opposed to the weekly broadcast. The ad industry is dead and buried... nobody wants to watch ads anymore.

6. The video game industry should be crying over all the lost sales to smartphones... but instead they change with the times and come up with games like Pokemon Go that earn $200 million in under a month... and that's from smartphone users.

7. Hollywood has continued to thrive with bigger billion dollar movies coming up now and that's with all the piracy. Take a look at all the money Hollywood has made in the last decade... All Time Worldwide Box Office Grosses.

 

I'm sure I can come up with tons more examples, but the point is the sky has fallen over many industries. It's a bigger shame the music industry refuses to adapt because they are full of dinosaurs. But hey let us blame the pirates for declining profits and everything else...

 

My personal answer to your points:

1. I never subscribed to my local newspaper. However, I prefer print magazines over online versions, as I don’t have to sign onto the internet and can read them anywhere.
   
2. I still buy greeting cards, I've never sent an internet card.
   
3. I buy envelopes, stamps, and send snail mail, and also pay bills by mail with checks.
   
4. I do the bulk of my shopping locally, clothes, personal items, food and most music and movie purchases. I only buy music downloads and SACDs I don’t find locally online.
   
5. I watch over the air HDTV using a $15 antenna. Over the air TV has always been free however now with 720p and 1080i HDTV the picture is perfect and the audio sound excellent.
   
6. I don’t play video games. I don’t own a cellphone as I prefer my corded landline phone and digital answering machine instead.
   
7. I quit going to movies when they got too expensive, I usually wait until it comes to Blu-ray disc.
   

 

Of course I admit I'm in the minority but there are lots of baby boomers so things won't likely be as dreadful as you point out until we are all dead.

 

I blame the existence of the record button on tape recorders; the existence of CD-R, DVD-R and BD-R; sound coming to computers and the internet as problems for Intellectual Property of music. I blame scanners, copiers and the internet as problems for Intellectual Property of the written word. There are just so many ways to steal now.

 

If something is not done, one day the only music left, will be music of the past IMHO.

 

PS: An even bigger shame on all the folks climbing the high moral horse here on this thread instead of laying blame where it belongs... with the labels, studios, executives, etc. Honestly guys... do you even hear yourselves or are you so full of Schiit?

 

As I have said before theft is theft, blaming other people does not give anyone the right to steal.

 

It is true some artists have been taken advantage of by record labels, how would that give anyone a license to steal?

 

Major label artists and engineers listen to the majority of listeners when they are demanding music to be loud so they can be heard with el-cheapo ear buds on their cell phones and iPods. That is why I prefer audiophile labels and I have to lot of respect for the artists, engineers and owners of audiophile labels as they produce great music with realistic natural sound quality.

 

Once again the loudness war does not give anyone the right to steal.

[Sal1950]

Evidently you don’t understand. The reproduction rights travel with the CD. Any copies of that CD that are in the possession of the seller after they sell the CD are illegal. You cannot possess the rip of a CD you no longer have possession of. It is not the CD that is stolen but the illegal rip of it! Understand now?

I try to do the right thing, when I discover something I did was wrong, I correct my behavior.

 

You wiggle well. But if a person buys used media without knowledge of the provenance, he is guilty of being complicit in the illegal activity. If not to the letter of the law, for sure in it's spirit. It's a "don't see don't tell" circle jerk in which everyone is part and parcel. Please take off your halo. LOL

As soon as all my clients that I supplied services to over the last 50 years start mailing me checks for the continued use of the products I serviced, I take the IP laws more seriously.

 

Music will survive just fine. It was doing great before the last 100 years of recording history, and so it will in the future, even if all the IP laws were ripped up. Musicians may have to work a little harder, perform live a lot more, getting off their ass and dedicating 40-50 hours or more a week to earning a living like the rest of us. Some may not become the mega rich stars that the IP pay scale has provided in the past. BOO HOO. You'll have to be good, talented, and create demand for your performance. Not everyone that picks up a instrument is a genius.

 

I'm done, Bye bye.

[Teresa]

..But if a person buys used media without knowledge of the provenance, he is guilty of being complicit in the illegal activity. If not to the letter of the law, for sure in it's spirit. It's a "don't see don't tell" circle jerk in which everyone is part and parcel.

 

Dead wrong, it is the responsibility of the seller to delete any now illegal copies of music they no longer own, it is never the responsibility of the buyer to force anyone to do what is morally and legally right. Buyers are not the music police. You sell a CD, you delete any copies you made of it! How hard is that to understand? The new owner of a CD is never complicit in any unknown illegal activity of the previous owner! Only if they knowing bought a stolen or bootleg CD or one in which the seller says they are going to keep an illegal copy for themselves.

 

..Please take off your halo. LOL...

 

I did take off my halo and explained how I went astray of the law in paragraphs 6-9 in post 191. Beginning with "I am not without sin,..". As I stated when in learned what I was doing was wrong I corrected my behavior by deleting everything that I no longer had listening rights to.

 

You only pay royalty once on any music item you buy, that is why it is illegal to keep a copy of any recordings you sell. Understand??

 

As soon as all my clients that I supplied services to over the last 50 years start mailing me checks for the continued use of the products I serviced, I take the IP laws more seriously.

 

I don't know what you do for a living but you are either paid hourly or per job. This is much different than how music performers are paid, they make 50 cents or less per CD sold. How do you think they should be paid?

 

Music will survive just fine. It was doing great before the last 100 years of recording history, and so it will in the future, even if all the IP laws were ripped up. Musicians may have to work a little harder, perform live a lot more, getting off their ass and dedicating 40-50 hours or more a week to earning a living like the rest of us. Some may not become the mega rich stars that the IP pay scale has provided in the past. BOO HOO. You'll have to be good, talented, and create demand for your performance. Not everyone that picks up a instrument is a genius.

 

Before the invention of recorded music only the rich could enjoy music performances on a regular basis. I feel less popular forms of music will disappear such as Classical, Jazz, and Blues. And only the grossest popular artists will survive serving up dreck. No, I prefer artists and musicians actually get paid for the songs they write and perform.

 

I'm done, Bye bye.

 

One can only hope.

[Teresa]

You're absolutely right. The music industry isn't in decline due to natural market forces, its in decline because people are committing crimes by stealing their product. There's a big difference.

 

"The Times They Are a-Changin' and everybody has to live with this change."

 

Really? We have to live with a change caused by criminal activity.

 

I agree completely.

 

I love music and feel musicians should be paid for their talent and music making.

[toomanytoys]

A good reminder for us all to go to our local music venue, buy a CD from the band and have them sign it. You take home something of value, get to hear the music LIVE and record a memory, and let the artist make a bit more than 50 cents.

 

I live in Chicago and have heard the pitch from the aforementioned dealer. Its actually a fairly low-key pitch. Really the ethical scenario isn't even a close call [unethical], even though I otherwise hold said dealer in high regard.

 

But here's the thing that ignites the passions: neither the recording industry position nor the all bits should be free crowd are defensible. Artists should be paid in some fashion for the ongoing intellectual property they have created. Consumers should have wide latitude to re-purpose (but not re-distribute) content they have licensed. A purchase of a download or a physical medium should convey broad usage rights for consistency. Practically speaking, the genie is out of the bottle: if there is an artist you love and constantly play, make it your responsibility to ensure they get something for their effort, even if you discovered it 30 years after it was produced.

 

For me that means licensing Tidal to sample new music ayce, buying a mixture of new and used CD's and ripping them to ensure I have access to whatever legacy recording I want whether I'm on line or not, and occasionally paying up for a special vinyl or high resolution download for those life-changing recordings. And, seeing live music in small venues.

[17629v2]

"I don't know what you do for a living but you are either paid hourly or per job. This is much different than how music performers are paid, they make 50 cents or less per CD sold. How do you think they should be paid?"

 

They should get paid according to whatever contract they signed with the record company. Why should it be any different? It was the artists decision to sign it in the first place. Its private matter that's really none of our business.

[semente]

No matter how you justify things in your own mind, what you are doing amounts to theft from the artist because the person you gave it to or the person who bought it from the Ebay isn't going to buy their own copy.

 

Does this apply to a 2nd hand amplifier or anything else that is bought used?

[kumakuma]

Does this apply to a 2nd hand amplifier or anything else that is bought used?

 

 

No

[semente]

No

Not even books? They're similar to recordings... Intelectual property, royalties.

 

How about movies and TV series?