Do I need DSD?

[Paul R]

So can someone record the output of a DAC playing plain redbook and then playing up sampled in software redbook so we can point out what the differences are?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

That would make sense. How would you record it to get the differences but not invalidate the experiment?

[k6davis]

So can someone record the output of a DAC playing plain redbook and then playing up sampled in software redbook so we can point out what the differences are?

Aside from a very small number of NOS DACs, no DACs play PCM directly. They all upsample it to DSD. This idea, though true and repeated often in this thread, seems to not be clearly understood.

 

So, at most, you could compare the DSD upsampling in the DAC to the DSD upsampling done by an audiophile media player in a (much more powerful, more upgradeable and more configurable) server. For nearly everyone, there simply is no "pure" PCM playback.

 

We're "all" listening to DSD now. And that renders the original question somewhat misguided, IMO.

[Jud]

So can someone record the output of a DAC playing plain redbook and then playing up sampled in software redbook so we can point out what the differences are?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

It's late in the evening for me and I may not be quite catching all you want, but I wonder if some of these entries (not energetic enough to read all of them, but 8-25-13 looks as if it might be on point) have some of the information you're looking for: Computer Audiophile - Miska - Blogs

[sjay]

I find it funny how this simple question has turned into a bit of a brawl. A real easy way to settle this is for the OP to listen to the same music in both FLAC and DSD formats, using a DSD capable DAC that actually handles it properly and let his own ears answer the question.

 

Does well mastered DSD sound good, sure, does poorly mastered DSD sound good, no. but the same can be said about any format.

 

Its not rocket science nor a subject worthy of a flame suit.

 

Disclaimer: As pointed out on page 3, I have a low end system not capable of resolving music in its purist form

[firedog]

What s/w are you using for the Tidal upsampling to DSD?

 

Roon+HQP

[mordante]

Different strokes for different folks. I'm using a high powered server and upsampling everything (including Tidal) to DSD before it goes to my streamer. The streamer doesn't have to resample, it just has to be able to pass the DSD to the DAC.

 

What is the point? To me it's the best SQ I get. The original format of the music file doesn't matter - I'm listening how it sounds best to me in my setup. In any case, DSD is clearly an audiophile format. The fact most people aren't setup to deal with it or that most streamers don't play it back is irrelevant.

 

My ideal would be a R2R dac with a chip less DSD dac. All in one box. For about 2000euro. But the only dac as far as I know that does that costs well over 4000 Euro, the lampizator 4 I'll have to make a choice. So no DSD for me.

[k6davis]

I find it funny how this simple question has turned into a bit of a brawl. A real easy way to settle this is for the OP to listen to the same music in both FLAC and DSD formats, using a DSD capable DAC that actually handles it properly and let his own ears answer the question.

Could you suggest a DAC that might be used for this purpose?

[徐中銳]

A better question, why do most DACs-internally-upconvert-to-DSD, but far fewer DACs feature external-DSD-inputs ?

 

Well, one reason perhaps, quoting from Marnatz NA-11S1 review Hiro had linked :

« [Ken Ishiwata] had been discussing with the engineers in Japan the problems of computer audio, and especially noise.

 

‘As you are well aware, a computer is just a noise generator from a pure audio point of view! Therefore, we have to take extra care of every connection you have between the network audio player and PC – otherwise you’ll end up having all those nasty noises coming into your audio system!

‘Of course it requires specific technologies and know-how to avoid that interferences from the PC, and I requested certain things in the NA-11S1, but the original design application was simply not the standard we wanted…. NA-11 is our first high-end network player!

 

‘This meant large changes to be made in the original design, and consequently more time was required…. However, in my opinion, it was the right decision, and the proof is in the product, which has been getting rave reviews all over the world! »

In other words' date=' in fact, DSD's Sigma-Delta Modulator chips are almost everywhere.

 

It's manufacturers' business to maximise how DSD is applied in replay. And consumers' practice of understanding how to choose and use...

 

Recalling Hiro :

As Ken Ishiwata said:

 

‘DSD can by-pass certain processing within those [delta-sigma] D-to-A converter chips, so you …. get a less processed signal with DSD compared to PCM, which of course will influence the sound quality.’

 

https://andreweverard.com/2013/09/24/review-marantz-na-11s1-a-very-good-thing-worth-the-very-long-wait/

 

Interestingly, as the article reports, "Ishiwata is also an advocate of upconverting existing CD-quality files to the DSD format in the computer, and then playing them back through a DSD DAC such as the NA-11S1."

 

As you've probably heard, his upcoming reference SA10 SACD player/DAC [internally] upconverts [everything] to DSD 11.2MHz...

Well' date=' does one [i']DAC[/i] model sound different to another ? Under what conditions ?

[esldude]

Could you suggest a DAC that might be used for this purpose?

 

The TEAC DACs would do it without a huge expense. Even the 301 does DSD or you might go with the 503. The 301 only does DSD 5.6 while the 503 does DSD 11.2 mhz.

[bibo01]

My ideal would be a R2R dac with a chip less DSD dac. All in one box. For about 2000euro. But the only dac as far as I know that does that costs well over 4000 Euro, the lampizator 4 I'll have to make a choice. So no DSD for me.

 

Perhaps this interests you:

Digital Audio Converter (DAC) – Kitsune HiFi

There is a discussion on it.

[Paul R]

My ideal would be a R2R dac with a chip less DSD dac. All in one box. For about 2000euro. But the only dac as far as I know that does that costs well over 4000 Euro, the lampizator 4 I'll have to make a choice. So no DSD for me.

 

Ah - and you miss one of the best things about DSD - much less expensive equipment does DSD very very well. You might consider trying a less expensive DSD DAC.

[sedest]

 

Holy Smoke! This one sounds damn good!

[Pat Case]

I find it funny how this simple question has turned into a bit of a brawl. A real easy way to settle this is for the OP to listen to the same music in both FLAC and DSD formats, using a DSD capable DAC that actually handles it properly and let his own ears answer the question.

 

Does well mastered DSD sound good, sure, does poorly mastered DSD sound good, no. but the same can be said about any format.

 

Its not rocket science nor a subject worthy of a flame suit.

 

Disclaimer: As pointed out on page 3, I have a low end system not capable of resolving music in its purist form

 

So low end, I don't know how you can stand it. [From one Ayre head to another]

[dbw1]

I bought a Rega Dac-r. No DSD, but I think it can handle whatever I download, and it should sound good with my CDs, which I must get to ripping. Thank you everyone for your thoughts. The argument has been entertaining (and informative). I got a great deal on the dac, so I'll be able to upgrade without too much pain if and when the needs change or if I do that back to back experiment with a borrowed dsd-capable dac and it's a revelation. This forum has been really helpful for me, being new to computer audio. I really appreciate it. Please feel free to continue arguing.

[sjay]

I bought a Rega Dac-r. No DSD, but I think it can handle whatever I download, and it should sound good with my CDs, which I must get to ripping. Thank you everyone for your thoughts. The argument has been entertaining (and informative). I got a great deal on the dac, so I'll be able to upgrade without too much pain if and when the needs change or if I do that back to back experiment with a borrowed dsd-capable dac and it's a revelation. This forum has been really helpful for me, being new to computer audio. I really appreciate it. Please feel free to continue arguing.

 

Sounds like you made a wise choice, DAC's change so fast its impossible to keep up , well almost, and whats high end state of the art today will be generally available in 6-12 months time anyway so dont sweat it. Further to this, there is no shame in listening to FLAC or MP3, as long as whatever you listen to makes you smile, you are doing it right

[徐中銳]

And for listeners who also like...

[video=youtube;SVH4K-ebUwE]

« You can find this release on channelclassics.com and nativedsd.com when you search for '38616' »

[ATTACH]28295[/ATTACH]

 

Holy Smoke! This one sounds damn good!

[bmoura]

And for listeners who also like...

[video=youtube;SVH4K-ebUwE]

« You can find this release on channelclassics.com and nativedsd.com when you search for '38616' »

 

Yes. Channel Classics has the new Florilegium album (38616) on Stereo CD and Stereo DSD in DFF download format. Native DSD Music has it in DSD Stereo and DSD Multichannel in tagged DSF download format.

 

And then there is the Florilegium catalog sale - 10% off their 14 albums and 8 Channel Classic samplers they appeared on through 8/12 with offer code FLORI.

 

 

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/

[craighartley]

Yes. Channel Classics has the new Florilegium album (38616) on Stereo CD and Stereo DSD in DFF download format. Native DSD Music has it in DSD Stereo and DSD Multichannel in tagged DSF download format.

 

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/

 

And in DXD.

[bmoura]

And in DXD.

 

And in DSD 128 and DSD 256 Stereo and Multichannel at Native DSD Music.

[k6davis]

The TEAC DACs would do it without a huge expense. Even the 301 does DSD or you might go with the 503. The 301 only does DSD 5.6 while the 503 does DSD 11.2 mhz.

These TEAC DACs, like nearly all modern DAC's, covert all input signals to DSD.

 

So when you listen to PCM through these DACs, you're listening to DSD.

[craighartley]

And in DSD 128 and DSD 256 Stereo and Multichannel at Native DSD Music.

 

Not sure why you are repeating that. I was adding to your list by pointing out that NativeDSD were also making it available in DXD (the format of the original edited master from which the DSD versions derive).

[k6davis]

My ideal would be a R2R dac with a chip less DSD dac. All in one box. For about 2000euro. But the only dac as far as I know that does that costs well over 4000 Euro, the lampizator 4 I'll have to make a choice. So no DSD for me.

I went in the opposite direction - a Lampizator 4 with DSD Only. I convert all signals to DSD256.

 

The Lampizator team, on their website and elsewhere online, have stated that DSD (and their chipless DSD in particular) is the best sounding D to A conversion they offer. They are fans of using a server to convert all signals to DSD in real time before sending them to the DAC.

 

In fact, they've begun to offer all of their models without PCM conversion, as on option.

[bmoura]

Not sure why you are repeating that. I was adding to your list by pointing out that NativeDSD were also making it available in DXD (the format of the original edited master from which the DSD versions derive).

 

In addition to DSD 64 versions.

[2string1]

Use the free trial version of the software available here - AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HiEnd audio converter ISO DFF DSF WAV FLAC AIFF - to upsample a track or tracks of your choice to DSD128, then listen to it/them through your DAC and see what you think.

Tried this program.. Converted a Flac file to DSF. It gave me one option 1 Bit. I admit I don't know anything about files but I thought 16 or 24 Bit would be better then 1 Bit. The display on my Auralic Vega reads DSD64 when I play the DSF file and 44.1KS when I play the Flac.. I hear absolutely no difference between the Flac and DSF file.

[esldude]

These TEAC DACs, like nearly all modern DAC's, covert all input signals to DSD.

 

So when you listen to PCM through these DACs, you're listening to DSD.

 

This has become a popular idea. Unfortunately it isn't really true.

Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: TEAC UD-501 DSD Performance (Part 3)

 

Here you can view measurements and see DSD64 and DSD128 outputs are not the same as PCM outputs. While true that most DACs convert to Sigma Delta internally, the method of filtering used that way with PCM input differs vs handling DSD input, and results of what you hear are different as well. So PCM thru these Teac DACs is not listening to DSD.