Do I need DSD?

[dbw1]

Still thinking over a Rega dac-r, a gungnir, a chord mojo, a couple models from teac. I'll use a mac mini I just got and a seagate personal cloud NAS. Not sure if I need DSD. I don't understand the technical aspects of it. If a dac can receive a signal at any current format frequency and decode it, how come it can't do it if it's streamed? How does the dac even know it's streamed? Doesn't the music player pull the signal into its memory and send it from the ram anyway? (I'm planning on using software that does that). And do I even care? That is, is DSD really the future? I've read such positive things about the rega and the gungnir but they don't do DSD. Thanks for helping out the new guy. -Dave

[YashN]

Try a DSD-recorded file from an audiophile player which can decode it (even if you have a PCM DAC). That was my first intro to DSD and even if it wasn't an ideal one for DSD playback.

 

Ideally, though, you'd want a DAC capable of doing native DSD during playback.

 

Having a DSD DAC also allows you to use something like HQ Player or Audirvana+ or Foobar2000 to do real-time up-conversion of PCM to DSD, thereby benefiting from the improved algorithms possible on the computer.

 

For me, there is no need to wait (is DSD the future?) to benefit from the format and the technologies around it.

 

There is no need to understand the technicalities behind it all if and when you hear the differences in sound quality.

 

Some people swear by NOS PCM DACs, you may want to investigate or do trial listens of both ways of listening and decide for yourself.

 

There is no hurry either: if you feel you need to understand more about it: read up on the format on Wikipedia, then read about how people are getting great sound with say, HQ Player doing real-time conversion to DSD512, etc...

 

I routinely get the feedback that music playing a my place is 'the best' some friends heard (to be taken with a pinch of salt as most of them are not audiophiles), and I get this with DSD + a Single-Ended Triode Tube Amp.

[davide256]

I enjoy DSD even with a PCM only DAC. Just focus on getting the DAC you like best with PCM (which is most recorded music) and if it doesn't do DSD insure you have a playback option to convert to PCM.

[sdolezalek]

I'm going to try to answer your question without opening the "which is better" Pandora's box:

 

1. There is high quality software that can convert nicely between PCM and DSD and vice-versa. So you can purchase a PCM-only DAC or a DSD-only DAC and still listen to music originally recorded in either format just converted to what your DAC prefers/needs.

 

2. At the highest quality level there are DAC designers who have optimzed their equipment to sound best with PCM and there are those who have done the same with DSD. In other words some of the best DACs only do one, not both well (or at all).

 

3. There are many (maybe most) DACs that use internal chips that do all of their conversion at the DSD (DSM) level. In those cases the DAC designer has developed their own PCM to DSD conversion software (which you may or may not be able to ignore by feeding the chip what it natively processes, i.e. DSD256) and you may or may not prefer that conversion software to software you can separately purchase.

[kelly200269]

Most DAC'S convert DSD into PCM before passing the signal to analogue output stages.

On my listening experience, there are no sonic advantages to buying/using DSD files over PCM, and IMO DSD sounds identical to 24/96 PCM.

I think selling DSD is marketing hype.

 

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

[One and a half]

Most DAC'S convert DSD into PCM before passing the signal to analogue output stages.

On my listening experience, there are no sonic advantages to buying/using DSD files over PCM, and IMO DSD sounds identical to 24/96 PCM.

I think selling DSD is marketing hype.

 

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

More DACs than you think do convert PCM & DSD to higher DSD rates, then apply a low pass filter. Off the top of my head Lampizator, EMM, Playback Designs, PS Audio, Nagra convert this way. Your listening experience with DSD or PCM is very limited and very much in the minority on this site and is most likely caused by transmission problems, rather than the media itself.

 

Music is a personal choice it should not be restricted to DSD or PCM. If the OP prefers certain music, and it's available only in DSD, then what.

 

DSD is marketing hype is a statement I don't agree with. DSD sits on SACD, I suppose that's hype too?

[kelly200269]

No. SACD is not marketing hype. There is a clear sonic advantage of SACD over RBCD.

But SACD is just a carrier of 'high-res' audio, nothing more. And the sonic superiority of SACD had little to do with the use of DSD over high-bit PCM.

I'm a firm believer in high-res audio, just very sceptical of the use of DSD files/encoding in preference to 24/96 or 24/192.

Bigger files and more difficultly in decoding does not lead to superior sonics over high-bit PCM IMO.

 

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[Maldur]

Most DAC'S convert DSD into PCM before passing the signal to analogue output stages.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Actually all Sigma-Delta DAC's convert PCM to SDM (like DSD) in output stages. There is only some chips that can process PCM in direct ladder mode, they are basically now very rare items.

Even every ADC chip in ADC side first, converting from analog to digital happens in DSD mode, after that is decimation process for creating a PCM signal from DSD. So, DSD is involved in every audio files what we can find, no matter is it video or music content.

 

Then, why we ignore possibility listen audio directly in DSD form without poor computing stages... ?

[4est]

Most DAC'S convert DSD into PCM before passing the signal to analogue output stages.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

It is the other way around. DACs that actually use PCM are outliers.

[Paul R]

May I make a recommendation?

 

You can purchase an iFi Nano DSD DAC for $189 or less. You can also demo software on your Mini that will playback DSD files at no cost.

 

I would purchase the iFi, which on your Mac with MacOS can do up to DSD256 and PCM 384k. Use the software, - HQPlayer or JRMC - to playback a few DSD files, and convert on the fly some of your PCM files to DSD for playback.

 

Take a listen in your system to DSD before you decide anything. I recommend the iFi because it does an incredible job for such an inexpensive DAC and you can recover most of your investment in it if you decide against it.

 

I feel it quite easily can compare with the DACs you mentioned, especially with the addition if a high quality USB power supply and a cable that will split off the USB power from the signal. (IFi also sells these items, or higher end versions of this DAC.)

[Melvin]

No, you do not need DSD. You will likely find those that say otherwise are DSD adherents (the rest are PCM adherents). BTW, the "next big thing" is MQA, which no doubt will be eclipsed by the next "next big thing" .. round and round we go on the merry-go-round. Ain't it grand?

 

@Paul R offered some great advice if you decide to see/hear DSD for yourself.

[pipis2010]

Of course you need DSD! Everybody needs DSD!!!

 

Just humour by the way, although it's purely subjective. I, for one, enjoy both hi-res pcm and upsampled dsd256, depending on the recording.

[audiventory]

DSD or PCM DAC is not matter. Both have same potencial abilities.

 

Counting that PCM DACs is DSD (sigma-delta modulation) inside

 

There all measurable in laboratory.

 

But for home hearing available as reference point only, in my opinion. Because measurement tools ("right" for hi-end class) are too expensive.

 

For home hearing is a single way to choose a DAC - either DSD or PCM or hybrid (DSD+PCM). That you prefer personally.

[bmoura]

The "next big thing" is MQA.

@Paul R offered some great advice if you decide to see/hear DSD for yourself.

 

MQA is only the "next big thing" until you hear it. Then it's time for DSD and 24/96 PCM....

[earnmyturns]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Actually all Sigma-Delta DAC's convert PCM to SDM (like DSD) in output stages. There is only some chips that can process PCM in direct ladder mode, they are basically now very rare items.

PCM R2R DACs are neither rare nor expensive, you can get a Modi Multibit for $249 at Schiit Audio, for example.

[Maldur]

If there is less than five (5) R2R DAC chips (not chipmakers!) in the list, and from that list half is now obsolete... we can say "rare" .

If someone look bigger picture, then numbers of DAC's using SDM versus R2R are just from different class. That Schiit Audio Modi Multibit don't changes anything in the bigger picture. It is only 16Bit capable (based on AD5547), so it is not HiRes device at all, in PCM terms. Good choice when Redbook CD is the only medium for listening.

[Maldur]

MQA is only the "next big thing" until you hear it. Then it's time for DSD and 24/96 PCM....

+1

[mac_and_dac]

Can someone recommend a good way to compare DSD to PCM?

 

I'm pretty happy with 16/44.1 PCM. I can't imagine certain albums I have sounding any better in DSD than they sound in PCM. (I'm thinking specifically of KD Lang's Ingenue, and Donald Fagen's The Nightfly.)

 

I would love to perform a direct comparison to see if I am missing out.

[Jud]

Use the free trial version of the software available here - AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HiEnd audio converter ISO DFF DSF WAV FLAC AIFF - to upsample a track or tracks of your choice to DSD128, then listen to it/them through your DAC and see what you think.

[whoozwah]

A couple questions that may help you filter your choices down.

 

What format is your music in already? In my opinion (and maybe others) it's best to avoid as many conversions in your signal path as possible.

 

What type of music do you like? Certain formats tend to favor certain genres over others.

[YashN]

Most DAC'S convert DSD into PCM before passing the signal to analogue output stages.

 

It's the other way round.

[tmtomh]

For those using Mac minis (or other Macs of course) to feed their DACs, BitPerfect costs only $9.99 and lets you play both bit-perfect high-res PCM and DSD files. It's the perfect way to test DSD (if you have a DSD-capable DAC of course) for Mac users.

 

I love my Oppo 105, but while it contains a DSD-capable DAC, it can take DSD only via SACDs and connected storage (USB stick/hard drive or networked drive). At the time of purchase, had I known the 105D was about to come out and would add the ability to stream DSD to the "USB DAC" input, I would have waited and paid the extra $100 for the D model.

 

That said, I'm perfectly content playing my small collection of DSD content in the form of SACDs and occasionally directly connected storage. The sound quality is fantastic. I prefer SACD/DSD to high-res PCM, but only slightly - and honestly there's no way I could tell the difference in a blind listening test.

 

If I were starting from scratch, I would get equipment that included full DSD-streaming capability, if that capability didn't cost too much extra, and if it didn't require me to buy a produce whose features and ease of use were otherwise inferior to a PCM-only product.

[earnmyturns]

If there is less than five (5) R2R DAC chips (not chipmakers!) in the list, and from that list half is now obsolete... we can say "rare" .

If someone look bigger picture, then numbers of DAC's using SDM versus R2R are just from different class. That Schiit Audio Modi Multibit don't changes anything in the bigger picture. It is only 16Bit capable (based on AD5547), so it is not HiRes device at all, in PCM terms. Good choice when Redbook CD is the only medium for listening.

It helps to take some time to study the matter: 1) Modi Multibit is just the lowest end R2R offering from Schiit, they have several others with greater effective bit width (given SNR considerations, anything > 21 bits effective is marketing fluff), and there are several other (mostly more expensive) R2R vendors, including some with fully discrete resistor ladders; 2) What list are you talking about? Schiit, for example, uses instrumentation R2R chips, for which there are multiple vendors; 3) most music available is at Redbook resolution at best (and much allegedly "hi res" remastering is no better, sometimes worse, than originally released Redbook).

[Paul R]

Can someone recommend a good way to compare DSD to PCM?

 

I'm pretty happy with 16/44.1 PCM. I can't imagine certain albums I have sounding any better in DSD than they sound in PCM. (I'm thinking specifically of KD Lang's Ingenue, and Donald Fagen's The Nightfly.)

 

I would love to perform a direct comparison to see if I am missing out.

 

With the caveat it depends upon the system - _Nightlfy_ sounds utterly lush and gorgeous - and way more real - when the 16/441. rebook version is converted by JRMC on the fly to DSD128 and played back over the iFi Nano, iFi Micro, or even the LH Pulse. Utterly gorgeous.

 

Of course, it sounds just as gorgeous when converted to PCM at 352.8k, which is a lot less strain on the computer, and of course, also depends upon the software you used to do the conversion.

 

I do think that PCM at low sample rates can sound perfectly compelling, but I think almost every rebook PCM file I have sounds much better when up sampled to 385/352.8khz,or when transcoded to DSD 2X or above.

 

-Paul

[tmtomh]

It helps to take some time to study the matter: 1) Modi Multibit is just the lowest end R2R offering from Schiit, they have several others with greater effective bit width (given SNR considerations, anything > 21 bits effective is marketing fluff), and there are several other (mostly more expensive) R2R vendors, including some with fully discrete resistor ladders; 2) What list are you talking about? Schiit, for example, uses instrumentation R2R chips, for which there are multiple vendors; 3) most music available is at Redbook resolution at best (and much allegedly "hi res" remastering is no better, sometimes worse, than originally released Redbook).

If someone prefers a multi-bit PCM DAC, or a true ladder DAC, that's great - they should enjoy it and they should feel free to tell others that they feel this kind of DAC sounds best. All good.

 

But that said, it's simply undeniable that the vast majority of DACs are Delta Sigma (or some variation thereof) based, particularly if you include not only standalone DACs but also the tens of millions of DACs integrated into audio components like CD players and AV receivers (putting aside the billions more DACs integrated into computers, tablets, phones, and so on...)