Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1"

[Dev]

Getting closer gents!:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26765[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26766[/ATTACH]

 

 

Sweet!

[hifial]

Alex, this may have been asked already so please bear with me.

 

I am contemplating powering an SSD with the LPS-1. I understand it outputs 1amp but the SSD on startup may ask for as much as 1.5amp before settling down to 1amp. Would the LPS-1 be able to handle that?

 

TIA

[JohnSwenson]

Alex, this may have been asked already so please bear with me.

 

I am contemplating powering an SSD with the LPS-1. I understand it outputs 1amp but the SSD on startup may ask for as much as 1.5amp before settling down to 1amp. Would the LPS-1 be able to handle that?

 

TIA

 

Probably not. The regulators being used have are rated for 1A, the actual limit is about 1.3A, if you try and draw 1.5A they will drop the voltage until the current is 1.3A. If it is 1.5A for a milisecond or so it is probably fine, but half a second or so will not work.

 

John S.

[hifial]

Probably not. The regulators being used have are rated for 1A, the actual limit is about 1.3A, if you try and draw 1.5A they will drop the voltage until the current is 1.3A. If it is 1.5A for a milisecond or so it is probably fine, but half a second or so will not work.

 

John S.

 

Thanks John. I will try and find out what the SSD needs on startup vs running. It may be less then 1.5amp.

[Distinctive]

There are a few people that have reported a softer transient reproduction when powering the uRendu directly with a regulated Li-ion battery. The internal resistance in this battery type is much higher than most other battery types. Will the Uptone LPS-1 care about this when powered by a 12VDC Li-Ion battery? What is the Rout of the LPS-1 that the uRendu sees?

[rickca]

John, have you found any showstoppers yet in your assessment of the pre-production board that warrant a significant engineering change? I know you've only had the board for a week, but I think the major issues tend to surface early.

[Superdad]

John, have you found any showstoppers yet in your assessment of the pre-production board that warrant a significant engineering change? I know you've only had the board for a week, but I think the major issues tend to surface early.

 

No showstoppers, but there are a number of inevitable engineering changes. It is a VERY complex piece, and despite staring at the layout for hours on end, little details do get missed.

 

We have yet to decide if we will need to run another round of test boards or if there is high enough confidence in all the board changes that we can go direct to production with a revised board. Costly--and a another 2-3 week delay--if we run another round. Vastly more costly if we go straight to production and then find something that prevents them from working. I already have tens of thousands of dollars sunk into this (mostly in the form of purchased parts), and John has hundreds of hours in it. So this is the nerve-wracking time…

 

We'll get there.

 

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

There are a few people that have reported a softer transient reproduction when powering the uRendu directly with a regulated Li-ion battery. The internal resistance in this battery type is much higher than most other battery types. Will the Uptone LPS-1 care about this when powered by a 12VDC Li-Ion battery? What is the Rout of the LPS-1 that the uRendu sees?

 

John may answer your last question (the LPS-1's output impedance is VERY low though), but I can assure you that the output of our new supply is not affected in the least by any aspect of the supply that energizes it. Not one bit!

 

Think of it this way. Is the quality of the light coming from your flashlight affected by the charger you used to charge its batteries? Does the water in your glass taste any different if you filled your storage tank by hand pumping it versus using an electric pump? (Sorry, we are here in dry California and I am on a low-productivity well, so water issues are never far from my mind.)

[Dev]

No showstoppers, but there are a number of inevitable engineering changes. It is a VERY complex piece, and despite staring at the layout for hours on end, little details do get missed.

 

We have yet to decide if we will need to run another round of test boards or if there is high enough confidence in all the board changes that we can go direct to production with a revised board. Costly--and a another 2-3 week delay--if we run another round. Vastly more costly if we go straight to production and then find something that prevents them from working. I already have tens of thousands of dollars sunk into this (mostly in the form of purchased parts), and John has hundreds of hours in it. So this is the nerve-wracking time…

 

We'll get there.

 

--Alex C.

 

These things shouldn't be rushed, especially when its something that is total new and there hasn't been products like it before. There are always surprises with the h/w products, however simple they are :-)

 

(Sorry, we are here in dry California and I am on a low-productivity well, so water issues are never far from my mind.)

 

+1. I camped up in the mountains this past weekend. At least the mountains got some good rains. pretty surprising in the summer :-)

[rickca]

Alex, thanks a lot for the update on your progress. I know I can buy your products with confidence because Uptone will sell no wine before its time. You sure have a lot going on concurrently with building your production facility while managing a new product launch. Keep up the entrepreneurial spirit. You have a lot of fans in the stands.

[Distinctive]

John may answer your last question (the LPS-1's output impedance is VERY low though), but I can assure you that the output of our new supply is not affected in the least by any aspect of the supply that energizes it. Not one bit!

 

Think of it this way. Is the quality of the light coming from your flashlight affected by the charger you used to charge its batteries? Does the water in your glass taste any different if you filled your storage tank by hand pumping it versus using an electric pump? (Sorry, we are here in dry California and I am on a low-productivity well, so water issues are never far from my mind.)

Thanks for this.

The only difference form your flashlight analogy is that your flashlight in this case would stay in its charger on a permanent basis, however the light would not be affected in any case so it is all good

[JohnSwenson]

There are a few people that have reported a softer transient reproduction when powering the uRendu directly with a regulated Li-ion battery. The internal resistance in this battery type is much higher than most other battery types. Will the Uptone LPS-1 care about this when powered by a 12VDC Li-Ion battery? What is the Rout of the LPS-1 that the uRendu sees?

 

You can't characterize this with a single number, what matters is an impedance VS frequency plot. That is MUCH harder to measure. Strangely enough non of the test equipment companies actually produce anything that can directly measure this. They all just give you an app note that tells you how to build your own. So that is what I am doing.

 

After I get the pre-production board working I will start doing some measurements on it as well as some listening tests.

 

John S.

[jtwrace]

No showstoppers, but there are a number of inevitable engineering changes. It is a VERY complex piece, and despite staring at the layout for hours on end, little details do get missed.

 

We have yet to decide if we will need to run another round of test boards or if there is high enough confidence in all the board changes that we can go direct to production with a revised board. Costly--and a another 2-3 week delay--if we run another round. Vastly more costly if we go straight to production and then find something that prevents them from working. I already have tens of thousands of dollars sunk into this (mostly in the form of purchased parts), and John has hundreds of hours in it. So this is the nerve-wracking time…

 

We'll get there.

 

--Alex C.

 

A pre-production run is the obvious answer.

[JohnSwenson]

John, have you found any showstoppers yet in your assessment of the pre-production board that warrant a significant engineering change? I know you've only had the board for a week, but I think the major issues tend to surface early.

 

Currently 10 hardware issues, mostly simple little things. There were a few that are related to using a different FPGA for the production board than the R&D board. The FPGA used in the R&D board had high current outputs, I was using these to directly control some high current transistors. But the FPGA in the production board cannot source anywhere near as much current, which means I need to add a low current transistor between the FPGA and the high current transistor. I have hacked up the board with this circuit and it works fine.

 

I think I have most of the hardware issues now, but there are some firmware issues showing up, mostly due to the new FPGA being much faster than the old one, which is causing some timing errors. I'm re-writing some state machines to get rid of those problems.

 

So it is progressing, but not fully functional yet.

 

It's interesting in that what I had problems with on the R&D setup and took several iterations to get right, are now working perfectly, it's stuff that was working on the R&D boards that is causing problems now!

 

 

John S.

[jabbr]

You can't characterize this with a single number, what matters is an impedance VS frequency plot. That is MUCH harder to measure. Strangely enough non of the test equipment companies actually produce anything that can directly measure this. They all just give you an app note that tells you how to build your own. So that is what I am doing.

 

After I get the pre-production board working I will start doing some measurements on it as well as some listening tests.

 

John S.

 

Ah if only it was standard practice for power supply vendors to produce impedance vs frequency plots

[Superdad]

Thanks for this.

The only difference form your flashlight analogy is that your flashlight in this case would stay in its charger on a permanent basis, however the light would not be affected in any case so it is all good

 

You are right, I suck at analogies. So let me torture this one some more!

 

But imagine if you flashlight had two battery packs and a big switch at the bottom that simultaneously both switched the charger away from the battery that was supplying the light bulb, and switched which battery bank was supplying the light bulb to the fully charged bank each time it reached a certain threshold. (But of course there are regulators that keep the output constant, and isolators that keep all the active stuff from being involved when a given bank is feeding the load.)

[rickca]

So it is progressing, but not fully functional yet.

Thanks, John. Amazing how much you can accomplish without project managers wanting to review your every move.

[Jud]

Thanks, John. Amazing how much you can accomplish without project managers wanting to review your every move.

 

No need to insult Alex.

 

[Distinctive]

I am not sure I am with you on the frequency plot.

The battery output is DC (charger is 50Hz, Sine).

Where does the frequency come in?

Are you talking about R-out on the LPS-1 that changes with what load it sees that is somehow dependent on frequency?

[Superdad]

I am not sure I am with you on the frequency plot.

The battery output is DC (charger is 50Hz, Sine).

Where does the frequency come in?

Are you talking about R-out on the LPS-1 that changes with what load it sees that is somehow dependent on frequency?

 

Ah yes, the age old paradox of the frequency of DC. Closely related to the Zen koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

[JohnSwenson]

I am not sure I am with you on the frequency plot.

The battery output is DC (charger is 50Hz, Sine).

Where does the frequency come in?

Are you talking about R-out on the LPS-1 that changes with what load it sees that is somehow dependent on frequency?

 

If all loads were constant current then a single DC number would be sufficient. But especially digital devices present loads to the power supplies that vary all the time. The really important part about a power supply is how it responds to those changing load currents.

 

Somtimes the currents change slowly, sometimes rapidly, somtimes they change quickly, but then change to something very soon there after, sometimes the change may take a very short period of time but stay at the new state for a while before changing again.

 

The impedance vs frequency plot tells you how the PS is going to respond to all these different types of dynamic loads.

 

If the plot was always a flat horizontal line then yes you can describe it with a single number, but it never is anything close to a flat line, even for batteries.

 

John S.

[ogs]

Ah yes, the age old paradox of the frequency of DC. Closely related to the Zen koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

 

Alex, I'm with you on impedance vs frequency. A low impedance over a wide frequency range - a bit like a solid state power amplifier with low output impedance. That is good regulation.

Did you get a chance to connect the iPower to the load-rig? Will the iPower deliver enough current for the LPS-1?

[feelingears]

If all loads were constant current then a single DC number would be sufficient. But especially digital devices present loads to the power supplies that vary all the time. The really important part about a power supply is how it responds to those changing load currents.

 

Somtimes the currents change slowly, sometimes rapidly, somtimes they change quickly, but then change to something very soon there after, sometimes the change may take a very short period of time but stay at the new state for a while before changing again.

 

The impedance vs frequency plot tells you how the PS is going to respond to all these different types of dynamic loads.

 

If the plot was always a flat horizontal line then yes you can describe it with a single number, but it never is anything close to a flat line, even for batteries.

 

John S.

 

Reading this stuff makes me wish I were young enough and mature enough to go back to school for EE. I find this fascinating.

 

Anyway, is it fair to say that the above statement is "why" powering my microRendu from a battery pack makes for (in my system) a softer, less dynamic bass? I wonder if the same effect would occur with the battery powering my Regen...

 

(My high frequencies are extended, transparent, and lovely on battery. I suspect my mids are a little shallow, however, relatively speaking. So, one for three doesn't cut it and I'm back to the iFi iPower for now. And of course, I hope the new LPS-1 gets me in the ballpark of a JS-2, sonically speaking.)

[YashN]

Reading this stuff makes me wish I were young enough and mature enough to go back to school for EE. I find this fascinating.

 

There's never been a better time in the history of humanity to learn: you don't even need to physically go to a 'school' to do it either!

[xiddox]

For those of us who already have a JS-2, will the LPS-1 provide any sonic advantage when powering a uRendu?