Updates- Intona High Speed USB Isolator

[manpowre]

Hi

 

I am using Mac mini > Berkely USB converter > AES cabel > Berkeley Ref Dac. I can not connect directly as far as I know.

 

Intona goes back I am sad to say.

 

Mabye it is because the Berkeley USB converter offers galvanized USB input and isolates the power lines from the host computer to allow the Intona curcuitry to work on the DAC/berkeley side ?

 

I see this thread calmed down, everyone is happy with their Intona ?

[Superdad]

Mabye it is because the Berkeley USB converter offers galvanized USB input and isolates the power lines from the host computer to allow the Intona curcuitry to work on the DAC/berkeley side ?

 

To be more specific about this:

a) The USB input stage of the Berkeley Alpha USB>S/PDIF converter is entirely bus powered

(Berkeley chose to do this so they would not need to provide an complete separate power supply; drawing off their main PS would reduce the effectiveness of the isolation between the USB and S/PDIF circuit sections; By the way, do remember that their "galvanically isolation" is coming AFTER the USB stage--hence other isolation, signal integrity, and impedance improvement devices still have an audible effect);

 

b) If an Intona USB isolator is powered only from a computer's standard USB 5VBUS (max 500mA), then Intona only guarantees a full 5V VBUS output up to 300mA--draws higher than that from a connected cause the voltage to drop off very quickly.

 

So the above is the full explanation as to why direct connection of computer>Intona>AlphaUSB does not work.

[scan80269]

To be more specific about this:

a) The USB input stage of the Berkeley Alpha USB>S/PDIF converter is entirely bus powered

(Berkeley chose to do this so they would not need to provide an complete separate power supply; drawing off their main PS would reduce the effectiveness of the isolation between the USB and S/PDIF circuit sections; By the way, do remember that their "galvanically isolation" is coming AFTER the USB stage--hence other isolation, signal integrity, and impedance improvement devices still have an audible effect);

 

b) If an Intona USB isolator is powered only from a computer's standard USB 5VBUS (max 500mA), then Intona only guarantees a full 5V VBUS output up to 300mA--draws higher than that from a connected cause the voltage to drop off very quickly.

 

So the above is the full explanation as to why direct connection of computer>Intona>AlphaUSB does not work.

Computer > Intona > REGEN > AlphaUSB should work, right?

[Superdad]

Computer > Intona > REGEN > AlphaUSB should work, right?

 

Yes, it will. But to truly preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona, the REGEN (or any device that comes between the Intona and the DAC/DDC) should be powered either by batteries or by a isolated supply such as our UltraCap LPS-1. Otherwise one reintroduces a leakage current loop around the DAC/DDC.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[scan80269]

Yes, it will. But to truly preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona, the REGEN (or any device that comes between the Intona and the DAC/DDC) should be powered either by batteries or by a isolated supply such as our UltraCap LPS-1. Otherwise one reintroduces a leakage current loop around the DAC/DDC.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Got it, Alex! Makes perfect sense.

 

Hmmm, this brings me to envision a super isolation/reclocker device, that combines the functionality of Intona, REGEN and LPS-1 "lite" (+5V 500mA output to DAC/DDC) into a single box. Such a design may be able to bypass the USB hub chip employed by the present REGEN, and in its place an ultra-low phase noise clock reference driving the USB logic on the DAC side. One thing I like about the Intona is its invisibility to the OS: it is not seen as a USB hub device like the REGEN. Not having a USB hub in the box may make PC-to-DAC/DDC communication more robust, especially in terms of power sequencing.

 

What do you think?

[gstew]

Got it, Alex! Makes perfect sense.

 

<SNI> and LPS-1 "lite" (+5V 500mA output to DAC/DDC) <SNIP>

What do you think?

 

John has already weighed in on an LPS-1 'lite":

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-listening-impressions-thread-30172/index11.html#post634921

 

Greg in Mississippi

[Kafy]

Hi Alex,

 

In the situation : Computer >Intona > Regen > DAC

Does the JS-2 to power the Regen can preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona ?

If Yes, what does the LPS-1 can bring more instead of the JS-2.

 

Sorry if that has been asked before.

[Kafy]

Yes, it will. But to truly preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona, the REGEN (or any device that comes between the Intona and the DAC/DDC) should be powered either by batteries or by a isolated supply such as our UltraCap LPS-1. Otherwise one reintroduces a leakage current loop around the DAC/DDC.

Hi Alex,

 

In the situation : Computer >Intona > Regen > DAC

Does the JS-2 to power the Regen can preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona ?

If Yes, what does the LPS-1 can bring more instead of the JS-2.

 

Sorry if that has been asked before.

[One and a half]

Hi Alex,

 

In the situation : Computer >Intona > Regen > DAC

Does the JS-2 to power the Regen can preserve the isolation benefit of the Intona ?

If Yes, what does the LPS-1 can bring more instead of the JS-2.

 

Sorry if that has been asked before.

 

In the situation mentioned Computer >Intona > Regen > DAC. The Intona is self powered and an isolation unit. It separates the leakage current from the computer to the DAC.

 

If there is another device, like the Regen or RUR or something else that's powered by another power supply, the leakage current from THAT power supply is fed back through the device to the DAC, which re-introduces noise again to the DAC which is no bloody good.

 

To avoid leakage current from the fixer power supply, replace that power supply with an LPS-1, to totally isolate the path of leakage current from the fixer and power supply to the DAC. There's no path to the DAC via a power supply.

 

Example:

 

 

This is the simplest approach using the Intona. Note the Intona has two lines through it to indicate it's an isolation device. Leakage current doesn't flow through (much anyway) past this barrier.

 

Now add a USB fixer, like a Regen or RUR something.

 

 

Leakage current from the Regen's power supply now ADDS to the USB signal again, which is what we don't WANT. Even using the JS-2, leakage current can pass to the DAC.

 

To fix, we use an isolated power supply, like the LPS-1 (which has a barrier like the Intona) so no leakage current paths to the DAC are created.

 

[Kafy]

Thank you for your explananation.

I understand that the power supply of the Regen could introduce a leakage current.

My question is, can I use an Uptone JS-2 power supply to power the Regen ?

Because for what I know, the JS-2 has isolated outputs that could avoid to introduce leakage current through the Regen power supply.

[One and a half]

Thank you for your explananation.

I understand that the power supply of the Regen could introduce a leakage current.

My question is, can I use an Uptone JS-2 power supply to power the Regen ?

Because for what I know, the JS-2 has isolated outputs that could avoid to introduce leakage current through the Regen power supply.

 

No. The JS-2's outputs are floating above ground and aren't referenced to ground. That does not mean the voltages from the JS-2 are galvanically isolated like the LPS-1.

 

The JS-2 has an AC mains friendly front end, which reduces crud caused by internal switching elements inside the JS-2. It's an ideal candidate to power the LPS-1 with some resistance due to the price..

[Kafy]

Thanks a lot for the precision.

I understand the specific galvanic isolation the LPS-1 does.

[manpowre]

Now I have a 600 dollar new project on my list to add to my chain after the Intona ! hot damn. Wish I could review these products here in Norway before purchase. The Intona was a non-brainer as it didnt need extra power rather used the power lines from each device and it has a pricelevel most people can accept, but now with regen and LPS-1 added into the mix.

[kilroy]

Will the iFi Micro iUSB device after the Intona also prevent a leakage current path? This device claims to provide isolation, and is powered by the supplied iPower power supply.

[lmitche]

Will the iFi Micro iUSB device after the Intona also prevent a leakage current path? This device claims to provide isolation, and is powered by the supplied iPower power supply.

No, this combination does not offer galvanical isolation. Powered by an Uptone Audio LPS-1 it does.

[Superdad]

No. The JS-2's outputs are floating above ground and aren't referenced to ground. That does not mean the voltages from the JS-2 are galvanically isolated like the LPS-1.

 

The JS-2 has an AC mains friendly front end, which reduces crud caused by internal switching elements inside the JS-2. It's an ideal candidate to power the LPS-1 with some resistance due to the price..

 

Thanks so much for pitching in Gary. Really liked the diagrams too.

 

For others reading, everything Gary wrote is correct.

(It's been a really busy week so hard for me to keep up with forums, e-mail, and production.)

 

 

No, this combination does not offer galvanical isolation. Powered by an Uptone Audio LPS-1 it does.

 

Larry is also correct. None of iFi iUSB devices provide galvanic isolation.

[One and a half]

Thanks so much for pitching in Gary. Really liked the diagrams too.

 

For others reading, everything Gary wrote is correct.

(It's been a really busy week so hard for me to keep up with forums, e-mail, and production.)

 

 

 

 

Larry is also correct. None of iFi iUSB devices provide galvanic isolation.

 

There's a post I wrote in the sponsored amr page that links to a photo of iGalvanic 3..!

No responses as yet, the unit looks like it's bus powered and like the Intona will have less current for the dac's front end. Despite needing an lps-1, an isolation device really needs to supply the full 500mA to a dac to cater for all possibilities.

[andru26]

Sorry to hear about this. I see in your signature, you have a Mapleshade usb cable and a YFS Ref (not familiar with that one). The Mapleshade is one of my bang for the buck favorites for sure, but the Mapleshade can definitely be finicky cable. I had compatibility issues with my Mapleshade and various intermediary usb devices (such at the iFi iUSB).

 

Have you tried any other usb cables?

Your Intona worked with my Light Harmonic Lightspeed usb cables (10G and 2G), TotalDAC D1, Curious Cables of differing lengths, generic cables and hard adapters. No problems with any of them. However, I never tried it with my Mapleshade cable.

P.S. Regen goes after the Intona

 

Hi Blake,

 

Did you use LH Lightspeed 10G cable before of after Intona?

I am asking because I am not able to establish a connection between the PC and DAC with the 10G cable between Intona and the DAC.

[Blake]

Hi Blake,

 

Did you use LH Lightspeed 10G cable before of after Intona?

I am asking because I am not able to establish a connection between the PC and DAC with the 10G cable between Intona and the DAC.

 

I used it before the Intona.

[andru26]

I used it before the Intona.

Thank you for clarifying Blake.

[manpowre]

I got to do some measurements finally today, after I got the Linear Power Supply finally working with a good nice noise floor on my ADC.. the measurements with and without the Intona speaks for itself.

 

The first one is with/without Intona 11khz sine towards my Yggdrasil DAC.

11khz sine, 7-17k spectrum, Direct DAC compiled.bmp

 

Second is with/without Intona 11khz sine towards Gustard U12, then AES to my Yggdrasil DAC.

11khz sine, 7-17k spectrum, Gustard AES DAC compiled.bmp

 

 

 

[jhwalker]

28 minutes ago, manpowre said:

I got to do some measurements finally today, after I got the Linear Power Supply finally working with a good nice noise floor on my ADC.. the measurements with and without the Intona speaks for itself.

 

The first one is with/without Intona 11khz sine towards my Yggdrasil DAC.

11khz sine, 7-17k spectrum, Direct DAC compiled.bmp

 

Second is with/without Intona 11khz sine towards Gustard U12, then AES to my Yggdrasil DAC.

11khz sine, 7-17k spectrum, Gustard AES DAC compiled.bmp

 

 

 

 

I've no training in reading these thing *shame* , so what are your conclusions?  

 

To me, the second looks exactly the same either way, while the first has a couple fewer "whiskers" afterward.  Not sure anything I'd pay for

[manpowre]

7 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

 

I've no training in reading these thing *shame* , so what are your conclusions?  

 

To me, the second looks exactly the same either way, while the first has a couple fewer "whiskers" afterward.  Not sure anything I'd pay for

 

Well it just proves that the harmonizing tone that comes in sidebands are less intrusive with the Intona. If you see the direct usb part the first test, it has 20db+/- sidebands thats not there once the Intona is plugged in. It proves exactly what I hear, the DAC is more accurate with the Intona unit. If you look at the gustard test, the buildup of the tone itself is sharper, so does the harmonic sidebands  = more accurate than the DAC's usb. and this is all audible too.

[jhwalker]

24 minutes ago, manpowre said:

 

Well it just proves that the harmonizing tone that comes in sidebands are less intrusive with the Intona. If you see the direct usb part the first test, it has 20db+/- sidebands thats not there once the Intona is plugged in. It proves exactly what I hear, the DAC is more accurate with the Intona unit. If you look at the gustard test, the buildup of the tone itself is sharper, so does the harmonic sidebands  = more accurate than the DAC's usb. and this is all audible too.

 

Just for kicks, I overlaid in Photoshop the plots for the two Gustard tests - they are literally identical.  

 

Not to say you don't hear something, but the plot doesn't show it for that one.

 

 

[manpowre]

7 hours ago, jhwalker said:

 

Just for kicks, I overlaid in Photoshop the plots for the two Gustard tests - they are literally identical.  

 

Not to say you don't hear something, but the plot doesn't show it for that one.

 

 

 

You just made me double check the measurements, I thought for a moment I had messed up the copy paste in the compilation, but its not a mistake. hehe..

 

In your photoshop copy/paste with the gustard, yes the spike are identical, the noise floor is not. Those differences are so small they could easily be deviations in my adc aswell. So in your compilation there are differences still (but very tiny small differences).

 

And I have said several times over at headfi forums that I dont hear any difference with and without intona towards the gustard. But I do hear a difference between using Intona + gustard to aes on my dac, /vs intona usb to my dac.

 

My theory is this, as the DAC has a usb reciever on the dac side typically xmos chip or similar, it forwards the digital packets to the DAC chip, and this is where differences in design comes, what happens with the digital packets toward the dac chip, does it get timed by the dac before entering the dac chip or does it get timed with the dac chip ? Well the Gustard times the digital data packets before sending it to the Yggdrasil, so its another step.