Updates- Intona High Speed USB Isolator

[manpowre]

I'm not sure who Daniel is. But I did email intona about this. Asked them to give advice. The first setup I used with oppo uses normal data cables except the tone to dac is only gold plated for better connection. But not audiophile cable. I did get a nordost cable with dac. But that looses signal by just moving it in USB plug when connected to both dac's so that is being delivered back. I believe this can be done without 300 dollar USB cables.

[manpowre]

I tried with another laptop, and that did not work either. As I desbribed earlier today.

 

But, I needed a usb hub anyway for my main office machine, so I went and bought one.

A 4 port "Logik USB hub" which is powered with a tiny power adapter.

 

That made the sync work. I can now play on the Hegel HD25 dac.

 

But, the USB hub is also making noice, on the digital wavelenth, without me being able to measure it. So I want really really to remove the USB hub and the extra cable on DAC side of the setup.

 

This is how I set it up:

PC - USB cable shielded - Intona USB separator - Usb to micro USB (bad cable) - Logik USB hub - shielded USB cable - Hegel HD25 DAC.

 

I sent email to Intona too, I hope they can advice, atleast Hegel HD25 can make the sync with some power on DAC side. But I really want to get rid of the usb hub due to the bad cable being used there.

[chauphuong]

Does Intona do any justice to a Raspberry Pi3 used as music server (Pi 3 send out signal through USB of course)?

[manpowre]

The only way to know for sure is to measure the analogue signal you send in to the DAC and measure the 8khz spike, and how bad it is if your system is affected by the usb noise. There are also some other frequencies 16khz and 24khz that has a slightly spike from this.

 

I can hear guitar solo playing up in the register, and the sound moves to right channel and gets distorted instead of a clear guitar play. Once the Inteno filter is applied with a good connection to my Oppo Dac (sabre chip), the distortion of the guitar is no longer there. I also playing out a 8khz tone, and without the filter it sounds stronger on right side than left. The file is a mono file. Mono file shows up as left channel in audio programs, but the DAC plays it out on both channels. But, the distortion for some reason can be clearly heard on left channel. so 8khz tone is stronger on right side. The other tones from 20hz to 20khz are played out on both channels just fine. I can not hear distortion on 16khz, but its a hard tone to focus at too.

 

Read this blog, Im sure some of you guys know it already:

Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Computer USB port noise, USB hubs and the 8kHz PHY Microframe Packet Noise

 

He didnt test the Intona device, but he separated the USB with a usb to fiber and back to usb to isolate the host machine, also measuring noice levels on different usb hubs. But his findings are really interesting, as he measures the issue clearly on the analogue side of the DAC.

 

But, Raspberry pi is a small tiny computer, and I can only assume, that it has some of the same issues as HTPC's and laptops with its usb output.

 

One of the nice things I found with the Intona, because of its separation from the DAC, I can remove the cable from my laptop without worrying on circuit issue when usb cable is being removed.

[manpowre]

Im so sorry for so many updates on the Hegel HD25, but I unplugged the power adapter to the small Logik usb hub, and the Intona Isolator connects to the DAC. So I do not need a powered USB hub. Still I dont like the hub solution as it adds another lengthy cable after the isolator to the DAC. so I need to find a solution regardless, but that was just something I figured out as I removed the power to usb hub.

[One and a half]

Im so sorry for so many updates on the Hegel HD25, but I unplugged the power adapter to the small Logik usb hub, and the Intona Isolator connects to the DAC. So I do not need a powered USB hub. Still I dont like the hub solution as it adds another lengthy cable after the isolator to the DAC. so I need to find a solution regardless, but that was just something I figured out as I removed the power to usb hub.

 

Followed your posts so you are not alone Keep writing, it's good.

 

Good progress at least with the Intona connecting with the hub. From your listening, the 8kHz switching is known problem with USB transmissions where it meets another electrical receiver/layer and that it comes through to the audio is testament to the DAC! The 8kHz spike is known to Intona, and they remove any artifacts of that problem, so it's a non issue.

 

Give Intona some time, they do respond to problems, the Hegel is a relatively new DAC which may catch Intona by surprise. I can see you are keen to have a solution, the hub at least proves that the Hegel can work with the Intona. The reason I suggested the hub, is that for my system, the hub is substituted with an Icron Ranger 2212 USB extender and even if the DAC is switched off, the Intona still feeds the signal into the Icron at full LED flash level speed. The 8kHz is removed by MC-3+USB converter, so it's not a problem for my system.

 

To get USB right requires staggered or progressive filtering from the PC to the DAC, that's what I find. The Intona is a great start, others have used a Regen from Uptone Audio, or the Wyred Recovery Reclocker from Wyred for Sound straightens out the USB, and reflects gunge back the source. It does need more cables, but keep them short like 15cm or hard adapters. I use the Lindy 15cm cables, they are dirt cheap, and work better than the Oyaide Continental 5s expensive USB cables. So long as you use the cheap cables from PC to the last filtering device before the DAC (in the dirty digital domain, DDD), it's all good.

 

From my experience, the last cable to the DAC matters, so the use the Nordost here. The rest of them can be generics, short of course. I measured the amount of hum at the DAC for each cable on a scope, the Nordost came out better by some 50mV ahead of the Oyaide ad Generics, so I use this from now on.

[manpowre]

Followed your posts so you are not alone Keep writing, it's good.

 

Good progress at least with the Intona connecting with the hub. From your listening, the 8kHz switching is known problem with USB transmissions where it meets another electrical receiver/layer and that it comes through to the audio is testament to the DAC! The 8kHz spike is known to Intona, and they remove any artifacts of that problem, so it's a non issue.

 

Give Intona some time, they do respond to problems, the Hegel is a relatively new DAC which may catch Intona by surprise. I can see you are keen to have a solution, the hub at least proves that the Hegel can work with the Intona. The reason I suggested the hub, is that for my system, the hub is substituted with an Icron Ranger 2212 USB extender and even if the DAC is switched off, the Intona still feeds the signal into the Icron at full LED flash level speed. The 8kHz is removed by MC-3+USB converter, so it's not a problem for my system.

 

To get USB right requires staggered or progressive filtering from the PC to the DAC, that's what I find. The Intona is a great start, others have used a Regen from Uptone Audio, or the Wyred Recovery Reclocker from Wyred for Sound straightens out the USB, and reflects gunge back the source. It does need more cables, but keep them short like 15cm or hard adapters. I use the Lindy 15cm cables, they are dirt cheap, and work better than the Oyaide Continental 5s expensive USB cables. So long as you use the cheap cables from PC to the last filtering device before the DAC (in the dirty digital domain, DDD), it's all good.

 

From my experience, the last cable to the DAC matters, so the use the Nordost here. The rest of them can be generics, short of course. I measured the amount of hum at the DAC for each cable on a scope, the Nordost came out better by some 50mV ahead of the Oyaide ad Generics, so I use this from now on.

 

Thanks for a great post. It tells me a few things.. Short cables really short. I agree. My friend a electro engineer told me the same thing. So I will try to get a usb cable which is not a micro usb cable to the hub, and really short.

From the laptop I use a 40 dollar 2m cable, nice to move laptop around with. To the DAC its same type of cable made for stereo with gold termination, this one 1 meter.

 

I can not hear difference between the dead cheap printer cable and the audio cables with gold termination. not even a hum. But I do not have a big setup. it is the dac then the amplifier to my lcd3's.

 

Btw, I have ordered a Tascam UH-7000 to measure the analogue signal after the DAC to check for any 8khz spikes or any hum by changing cables. Before really investing hardcore in 500 dollar usb cable, I want to measure the effect if there is a hum or any other effect. I got some ideas with clear tones in different spectres to measure any distortion. not just tones on one frequency, but tones moving eg. from 7khz-9khz and back down.

 

Also, I want to measure jitter with J tests changing cables. just like the canadian. Just waiting for the Tascam device atm.

 

I see I have some spelling mistakes, sorry for that.. english is not my native language.. but I do speak and write more or less fluently.

[ahura]

Hi manpowre

 

Does intona changed the sound quality of hegel in a positive manner?

I asked the compatibility of intona with hegel in this forum because i emailed hegel support and they advised to try such devices before buying. They got some feedback that some of these devices do not work with hegel.

 

I couldnt try intona yet so i am very curious if it is worth to add intona to the chain.

However i can give a recent feedback of ifi iusb 3.0 power device. (Maybe this is not the exact forum for ifi but would like to share with you my observations)

 

I use Auralic mini as source device so please note that my observations are not related with pc/laptop combinations.

 

I tried ifi audio iusb3.0 with their Gemini dual usb cable which was connected to Hegel hd 12 dac. I use wireworld platinum usb between auralic mini and ifi iusb.

Unfortunately the results were not satisfying with ifi. Each time i preferred the sound of Auralic mini without ifi.

There was a difference with ifi audio but i can not say it was in a positive manner.

The bass was more tight with ifi but it was not natural anymore. The bass extension was gone and it didnt sound natural anymore.

This was also same in the mid bass range of instruments. The midbass of acoustic instruments did sound artifical

(this was because their natural bass extension were disappered with ifi iusb3.0.)

Because there were changes in bass frequency (more tight) seperation of instruments were a little bit better with ifi.

 

That was of course my observations and results in my system.

I tried also iusb with my laptop and the changes were more positive .

 

I think if you use a streamer as source the changes are not so obvious as pc and it is not always in a positive manner.

So try before buy:)

[manpowre]

Hi manpowre

 

Does intona changed the sound quality of hegel in a positive manner?

I asked the compatibility of intona with hegel in this forum because i emailed hegel support and they advised to try such devices before buying. They got some feedback that some of these devices do not work with hegel.

 

I couldnt try intona yet so i am very curious if it is worth to add intona to the chain.

However i can give a recent feedback of ifi iusb 3.0 power device. (Maybe this is not the exact forum for ifi but would like to share with you my observations)

 

I use Auralic mini as source device so please note that my observations are not related with pc/laptop combinations.

 

I tried ifi audio iusb3.0 with their Gemini dual usb cable which was connected to Hegel hd 12 dac. I use wireworld platinum usb between auralic mini and ifi iusb.

Unfortunately the results were not satisfying with ifi. Each time i preferred the sound of Auralic mini without ifi.

There was a difference with ifi audio but i can not say it was in a positive manner.

The bass was more tight with ifi but it was not natural anymore. The bass extension was gone and it didnt sound natural anymore.

This was also same in the mid bass range of instruments. The midbass of acoustic instruments did sound artifical

(this was because their natural bass extension were disappered with ifi iusb3.0.)

Because there were changes in bass frequency (more tight) seperation of instruments were a little bit better with ifi.

 

That was of course my observations and results in my system.

I tried also iusb with my laptop and the changes were more positive .

 

I think if you use a streamer as source the changes are not so obvious as pc and it is not always in a positive manner.

So try before buy:)

 

To be honest, my psychology part might play here a bit, as I have to use that USB hub between output of Intona towards the DAC with a micro USB cable, also the fact that Archmagio's blog has proven even USB hubs produce this 8khz noise. So until I can get a solid connection towards the HD25 dac, I dont want to start the audio sound quality differences measurement. But my instinctive feeling (which is my psychology) is that I am missing some soundstage with that mini usb cable and usb hub in the mix compared to direct connection from laptop to DAC. I suspect jitter effect with the mini usb cable and the hub. Since I have no way of actually measure this, I have no idea. But I feel less bass tightness and some mid-tone missing. Also I think I hear some very small clipping. not like a bad cable, but high frequency tiny clips in the music. But again, I dont want to measure too much these things until I get a solid connection towards the DAC without the usb hub and the micro usb cable.

 

After more audio listening yesterday, it seems my USB port on my HD25 might be broken, as when I move the USB cable on HD25 side I loose driver within windows.

 

So now I need to sort the dac itself before I can continue on my journey. Ill keep you posted.

[One and a half]

Thanks for a great post. It tells me a few things.. Short cables really short. I agree. My friend a electro engineer told me the same thing. So I will try to get a usb cable which is not a micro usb cable to the hub, and really short.

From the laptop I use a 40 dollar 2m cable, nice to move laptop around with. To the DAC its same type of cable made for stereo with gold termination, this one 1 meter.

 

I can not hear difference between the dead cheap printer cable and the audio cables with gold termination. not even a hum. But I do not have a big setup. it is the dac then the amplifier to my lcd3's.

 

Btw, I have ordered a Tascam UH-7000 to measure the analogue signal after the DAC to check for any 8khz spikes or any hum by changing cables. Before really investing hardcore in 500 dollar usb cable, I want to measure the effect if there is a hum or any other effect. I got some ideas with clear tones in different spectres to measure any distortion. not just tones on one frequency, but tones moving eg. from 7khz-9khz and back down.

 

Also, I want to measure jitter with J tests changing cables. just like the canadian. Just waiting for the Tascam device atm.

 

I see I have some spelling mistakes, sorry for that.. english is not my native language.. but I do speak and write more or less fluently.

 

It's great to see a method and then the practical experiments to back up findings. I believe you will find some very strange things in the search.

The Tascam will pick up any strange noises for sure. The hum is 50Hz superimposed on the shell voltage of the USB connector. It's the same as an analog interconnect, causes shield currents. So it is another reason to keep the raw USB from the computer out of the DAC.

 

As for the same mono frequency appearing louder in the right channel is certainly strange but an explanation exists. If the Intona is not in circuit, the frequency tone shifts and Intona in circuit, the tone is correct for both channels. The DAC must be picking up the extra unwanted rubbish and treating it as a real signal. Great pickup!

 

Even the best of of English posters make mistakes, it's OK, can see through and get what you are writing.

[feelingears]

So long as you use the cheap cables from PC to the last filtering device before the DAC (in the dirty digital domain, DDD), it's all good.

 

 

One and a Half, interesting your system works that way. I am here because I had some $ to spend and an itch to scratch, so I picked up a Shunyata Venom USB cable to feed my Regen (which then goes stock solid adapter into a Schiit Modi 2). The Shunyata replaced the stock "emergency" USB cable.

 

On my low-end but convenient Denon mini system, I was immediately taken by the increased detail, separation of frequencies, and overall musicality that the change brought. I switched back and while the difference is "subtle," it was plenty for my ears! I suddenly thought I had a cheapo counterfeit Naim system in my office.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to share that I think the upstream is important in my system, and thus I'm considering the Intona.

 

Cheers.

[manpowre]

Another topic, I have successfully tested Intona with Tascam UH-7000 unit. It communicates just fine.

 

I am doing active measurements on the Oppo HA-1 at the moment. it takes time, as I have to wait for it to cool down many hours before starting measuring again, and I want to enjoy a little in between..

[Middy]

Another topic, I have successfully tested Intona with Tascam UH-7000 unit. It communicates just fine.

 

I am doing active measurements on the Oppo HA-1 at the moment. it takes time, as I have to wait for it to cool down many hours before starting measuring again, and I want to enjoy a little in between..

Hi sorry to intrude, new member... I bought the non industrial and it has tightened and made the OPPO ha1 so much more detailed and Holographic from before. I have the IFI IPURIFIER 2 but that didn't work post INTONA. Pre is fine.. maybe the 300mv out isn't enough?

The big boost I got with the HA1 was IPA cleaning the terrible internal push fits With IPA+ deoxit. Mine just blossomed now the IFI has benefit and the INTONA just gives huge sound stage and percussion hit. Voices now can be heard.

I used good ESD and power off for inside. I think the big change was the PCB grounds and a sanded earth clinch lead from the IEC. Even the intona USBs were IPA deoxit cleaned.

My last mission is to Silver solder the female wire clinched leads on the Toroidal and square transformers and MAPLESHADE silver grease... when it comes.. on the male pins/ earth screws. My impression is contact resistance and a good earth path... But intona is magic dust...very happy..

 

A boost for my OPPO but I want the INTONA and ifi p2 to really get it to the best it can and the OPPO was holding its back. My whole chain is done now the internal clean was the big boost. I didn't think IFI RUR intona ET AL usb cleaners would do much..

Now they leverage my OPPO now it's nearly back to potential best ..My modded Mr Ethers earn thier living now..

.. I'd love to hear what your measurement tell you.

Google 'Diyaudio coris oppo ha1' for extra bits he does. Shielding and mods. I can't do that....

But thanks to kind people here I am glad I got the INTONA .....

So thank you all for the good advice. Sorry to go a bit off topic.. a bad habit I have... and rambling..

 

Kind regards and good luck

 

Dave[emoji4]

[manpowre]

Sorry, on monday I got my new Amp the V281, so after that Ive spent time listening to music and totally amazed by that analogue Amp. Also I have to RMA my headphones so I have only a few days left until they get shipped overseas. So Im spending most of my time listening to music right now. Once headphones are shipped, back Ill be spending time measuring.

 

About the HA-1 and my measurements what I found last weekend without the Intona device, as I didnt get that far to plug that in while measuring (only on HA-1 a little):

 

Cold unit: bass and mid tone has a noise level that varies with 30 desibel. The jitter test show me inaccurate sound, especially in the peak there is alot of inaccuracy where the peak builds up.

Once warmed up. The bass and mid tone settles with variations of 20 desibel above noise floor. The jitter test shows more accurate buildup of the 11khz tone, more like my Hegel HD25.

 

I always felt the Sabre chip of HA-1 to be accurate in upper mid-tone and treble, very accurate. Sabre chip is known for that. Compared to my Hegel HD25, it confirms that with the 11khz tone as I see very similar buildup of the 11khz tone. But I felt the HA-1 DAC/sabre chip didnt reproduce bass extension enough for me to really enjoy the music, so I bought a Hegel DAC as that has more neutral soundstage from bass through mid-tones to treble. Once I took the sound from HD25 to the HA-1 the sound was "right" to my ears.

 

The jitter test didnt show any bad signs of jitter though.

 

I did plug the Intona device in and measured once on the HA-1, and immediately what I saw, was the bass and mid-tone didnt vary so much anymore, seemed to settle to a more tight noise level. Instead of varying 30 desibel at cold, it varied 20, and as a warm unit instead of varying about 20 desibel, it was suddenly down to just above 10-15db. That might confirm the findings that bass and mid-tone with the intona device is more accurate in sound reproduction.

 

Sidenote, the Hegel DAC has a 10 db variation in bass and mid-tone without the Intona device. and I didnt see anything improve with it either. just as I had problem listening to artifacts with or without Hegel HD25 dac. This also confirms that some DAC's can benefit from separating usb from the host and some where you can't really hear much difference.

 

The software Im using is a 30 day trial. 20 days left and its 275 dollar fee to purchase it !!! Not sure what to do after as the other software I tried isnt nearly as fast as this one. But from monday I will start measuring again, as I dont have headphones for 2-4 weeks.

[Middy]

As others have mentioned could it be your Hegel has built in galvanic isolation? If I get the micronised silver grease and a chance to hard solder the crimped wires inside. I'll post with my limited sound impressions( I think contact resistance and earth drain ..). My deoxit in the internal breakable connections/ earth planes had a massive boost in clarity. The intona/ IFIP2 in the chain is the icing on the cake and shows how input voltage does seem to dramatically effect the DAC operational performance. Thanks for improving my limited knowledge..

Good luck

Dave

[manpowre]

I just searched for "hegel hd25 galvanic isolation" and yes it is. There is a product pdf specifying that the USB input is galvanically isolated.

[One and a half]

I just searched for "hegel hd25 galvanic isolation" and yes it is. There is a product pdf specifying that the USB input is galvanically isolated.

 

Can you find out from Hegel what level of volts is required to overcome the galvanic isolation? Typically this should be 1000V or higher.

[manpowre]

Can you find out from Hegel what level of volts is required to overcome the galvanic isolation? Typically this should be 1000V or higher.

 

Hegel has been reluctant to answer any electronically questions, but I am not an electro engineer, so I have no idea asking a question like that makes sense to be honest.

 

But I started reading about Schiit DAC's and none of them are galvanic isolated on the USB input, in fact, the USB input apparently draws current from the USB 5V connectors. No wonder why Intona and regen works on the Schiit DAC's.

 

I do know Hegel has their own built inhouse clock on their circuits, so I can only assume that the regen won't be audible on the Hegel products either.

 

It surprises me that users that owns Schiit Yggdrasil reports good results with the Intona and regen modules.

 

I guess if I had access to one Yggdrasil, I could measure possible similar things as I have seen with my Oppo HA-1 with and without the Intona. I do plan to measure test tones in the bass and mid-range to see how this affect the tone itself. Especially since this is so audible with the HA-1.

[One and a half]

Hegel has been reluctant to answer any electronically questions, but I am not an electro engineer, so I have no idea asking a question like that makes sense to be honest.

 

But I started reading about Schiit DAC's and none of them are galvanic isolated on the USB input, in fact, the USB input apparently draws current from the USB 5V connectors. No wonder why Intona and regen works on the Schiit DAC's.

 

I do know Hegel has their own built inhouse clock on their circuits, so I can only assume that the regen won't be audible on the Hegel products either.

 

It surprises me that users that owns Schiit Yggdrasil reports good results with the Intona and regen modules.

 

I guess if I had access to one Yggdrasil, I could measure possible similar things as I have seen with my Oppo HA-1 with and without the Intona. I do plan to measure test tones in the bass and mid-range to see how this affect the tone itself. Especially since this is so audible with the HA-1.

 

That's a shame about the replies. The figure will give an idea of what component is used to provide the isolation, sometimes devices are only 50V, this is not the effort.

 

What you are working on here is system integration, something that each manufacturer tends to ignore, but we the audio listeners have to take on issues and work through the problems for ourselves. I found the Intona has a dramatic impact on the sound and also the behaviour of signal flow and is/can be reliant on the regen or similar devices working as a whole including the cabling which changes the sound again. For reasons of isolation and adverse signal flow, it is best to keep the USB processing out of the DAC as much as possible and feed the DAC with AES3 or better still I2S/LVDS.

 

As for one day one device that can do everything, that may be well into the future, but in the meantime we need to cope with a Frankenstein of different pieces of kit that surprisingly works very well.

[One and a half]

Here's a really early post at CA talking about isolation.

[chauphuong]

If the DAC does not have to use power from PC's USB port, and the USB cable is modded to have only data lines (pin 1 and pin 4 are removed), does it make sense to buy Intona?

[manpowre]

If the DAC does not have to use power from PC's USB port, and the USB cable is modded to have only data lines (pin 1 and pin 4 are removed), does it make sense to buy Intona?

 

Hard to say, but on a general note, those DAC's proven to be galvanic isolated on the USB input is less affected by noise on the USB standard from the PC/Mac. like my Hegel HD25. I just can't hear the difference, but I can definetely hear difference between my stock XLR cables with Audeze LCD3 and the silver cable from Heimdall Nordost XLR version.

 

The Intona provides a galvanic isolation with 2 print boards and a chip between those 2 print boards to clean up the signal entirely. Some DAC's dont work with this as the second print board on the DAC side needs to communicate with the DAC, and eg. my Hegel needs a USB switch between to ensure that communication is ok. I believe its Handshake thats not going as it should.

[genjamon]

If the DAC does not have to use power from PC's USB port, and the USB cable is modded to have only data lines (pin 1 and pin 4 are removed), does it make sense to buy Intona?

 

Yes, it can still make a difference in this configuration. It did in my system.

[Middy]

I wonder if it still works with the PS AUDIO LANROVER.... An ether net to wifi to usb converter..My god this madness never ends

[chauphuong]

Yes, it can still make a difference in this configuration. It did in my system.

 

Hi. I missed one point. My DAC is said (by the manufacturer) to have galvanic isolation on the usb port. Do you think Intona will do good in my case?