Streamers vs PC

[Paul R]

You have idea what you are talking about do you?

 

 

 

Either you have an experience like this

 

 

 

and this...

 

 

 

Or you don't.

 

Let's leave it at that. I certainly for one don't have the time or even the need to argue with ignorance.

 

Given up arguing with yourself? That'a a good thing.

 

The best CD players do not even come close to the best streamers. If younthink differently, you are welcome to your opinion, but you are quite wrong.

[master]

Given up arguing with yourself? That'a a good thing.

 

No buddy... the only good thing on CA is good folks like Jud. For more of the good thing check out his latest posts, or his blog entries. Seriously good information you can dig and even learn from and coming from someone who knows that he's talking about.

 

PS: I highly recommend other folks to start following Jud around... at the very least you'll learn something useful.

 

You on the other hand are an embarrassment of 11,000 + posts of ignorance, disinformation, and sheer stupidity.

 

The best CD players do not even come close to the best streamers. If younthink differently, you are welcome to your opinion, but you are quite wrong.

 

You will never see me talk much in various sub-forums - Networking, Networked Audio, and Streaming, Headphones & Speakers, DSP, Room Correction, and Multi Channel Audio, Music Analysis - Objective & Subjective, etc. They are topics I know knowing about and I know well enough to shut my trap when it comes to these topics.

 

You on the other hand are an ignoramus who insists on talking on every subject under the sun especially without the requisite knowledge or experience? Either you know (so please share) or shut up already. If you have free time on your and are unemployed (anyone with over 11K posts on topics he knows nothing about must be both), please find something else to do instead of talking out of your a**.

 

Continue talking (and posting) and only 3 things stand to reason...

 

1. You are trying to be the village idiot around these parts?

2. Chris is paying you for the drama?

3. Or you have the IQ of 69 and below?

 

If you pick 3 you can be excused... but only for 3.

[One and a half]

The best CD players do not even come close to the best streamers. If you think differently, you are welcome to your opinion, but you are quite wrong.

 

Oh please, the ignorance is overwhelming Mr. Raulerson, come on. Esoteric, Accuphase, Luxman at the top of my head brands can eat computer playback for breakfast. I will gladly fall into this opinion, you tell me I'm wrong, it's first class ticket to the ignore list.

[firedog]

Thanks Paul,

 

Ok after playing around abit I got it to play the wav file correctly but I cannot get my iphone with Jremote to work. I connected with the access key JRMC gave me and the player comes up but the wrong song shows on my phone and when I hit FF on the phone it goes to the next song on my phone but not on the Marantz.

 

Weird!

 

In the app, tell it to play to the "zone" for the Marantz. There should be an icon in the bottom left corner that gives you a choice of where the output should be directed, to the phone or to another output (your Marantz). At least that's how it operates with an iPad.

[Teresa]

...Accuphase, Luxman at the top of my head brands can eat computer playback for breakfast. I will gladly fall into this opinion, you tell me I'm wrong, it's first class ticket to the ignore list.

 

I have no doubt about that. Even on my inexpensive Yamaha SACD / Blu-ray player (retail $330) CDs sound more enjoyable than 16/44.1kHz music files on my Mac Mini>USB>Teac DAC. Other than the hard work involved, this is the main reason I don't rip physical formats to my computer. My computer is used exclusively for purchased music files, mostly high resolution, that are not available otherwise on SACD, HDCD or Blu-ray. Or in those cases when I don't want the entire album.

 

I haven't heard a streamer in my system. Since Paul is claiming the best ones all beat playing CDs directly from a good quality player does than mean Streamers are a hell of a lot better than computers? Personally, I feel you are correct and Paul is wrong. Just my personal opinion based on listening to music I love.

[lmitche]

A CD player is just the same as a streamer or streamer/DAC or PC/DAC where the difference is that the bits are read from a CD ROM drive, instead of an HDD, SDD or USB stick. Storage media aside, the design choices that make one implementation sound better then the other are all the same.

 

So how can one argue that the best CD players always sound better? or that a PC or Streamer is best? It's all in the implementation. The digital storage media is irrelevant as long as the quirks of each storage medium are handled properly.

 

C'mon folks, this is CA, you all know this!

[Paul R]

Oh please, the ignorance is overwhelming Mr. Raulerson, come on. Esoteric, Accuphase, Luxman at the top of my head brands can eat computer playback for breakfast. I will gladly fall into this opinion, you tell me I'm wrong, it's first class ticket to the ignore list.

 

You are dreaming if you think that an Esoteric CD player can or does sound better than say, a DirectStream DAC- based upon the opinion that it is more expensive or whatever. If you have not listened to Miska's work streaming to even low cost devices, then fed to a decent DAC, you have no idea of what you are comparing.

 

Streaming Tidal? That is as far away from what I am talking about as a $69 DVD player.

 

No matter how much you spend on a CD player, it is always going to have the intrinsic problem of reading from mass market cheaply pressed optical media, with all the attendent detection issues and built in jitter. Issues that simply do not exist in other forms of CA.

 

While I am perfectly okay with someone preffering a CD player, or a turntable, or whatever, streaming can and often does sound better. Why do you think so many people are buying NAS devices and using them to stream? Or is it you think a NAS does not stream the music? (You could replace "streaming" with "on demand network delivery of the data" if that makes you feel better.)

 

By the way, the best audio here at my house happens to be a restored reel to reel tape system.

 

It sounds better than anything else, and 24/192k digitized from it sounds almost as good.

 

I have no doubt at all I will eventually get digitized sound from it that will be every bit as good, and that will be with data streamed from a server to a relatively inexpensive player.

 

That is my opinion - you are welcome to disagree with it or hold a competing opinion. But please, don't even try to sell me the tired old line that a $12k CD Is the best sounding devce around. Paying $12k for $1k worth of electroncs and $11k worth of bling is not going to make the electonics sound better. Youncan believe that. Hell you may even be right, at least for yourself.

 

Won't change what I hear here, or generate any concern over not agreeing with the idea that uber expnsive CD players must sound better. They don't - to me. And yes, I have listened to them. I was surprised they sounded better than redbook through a modest, or even a moderately costly DAC. But that benchmark was passed with DSD. Improved even more when streaming the DSD files.

 

And even more under Windows with iSCSI, though not over NFS on the same hardware with Linux.

 

Ok- does that begin to reveal a bit more of what I am talking about? Streaming sounds better than anything I have heard save for tape. I am not talking about Apple Music or Tidal, though I am intensely interested in MQA.

 

Prediction- eventually weeny little players with cloud connected storage will be the best music reproduction systems period. Better than turntables, better than tape, and better than CD players.

 

(Heh - I can not resist adding that thise boxes will almost certainly use DSP and stream without wires to active speakers. One reason I Just invested in a set of Active speakers.)

[One and a half]

On you go.

[Paul R]

On you go.

 

Why don't you just put me on your ignore list so you won't have to listen to opinions an experience that differs from your own?

 

By the way, if a CD player sounds better to you than a DirectStream DAC, for whatever reason, more power to you. Just don't pretend that your experience is the one and only absolute truth.

 

-Paul

[miguelito]

You have idea what you are talking about do you?

Either you have an experience like this

and this...

Or you don't.

Let's leave it at that. I certainly for one don't have the time or even the need to argue with ignorance.

I think it's fair to say that one doesn't reach dimishing returns in CD player performance until you get to the Esoteric transports and high end DAC territory, whereas you might reach those levels much sooner (cost-wise) with a streamer.

 

I have an EmmLabs XDS1v2 (uses the Esoteric disc transport plus is a DAC like the Dac2x as well). CD/SACD performance is fantastic and easily rivals the performance of both my mini with all it's tweaks (see my system detail) or the Auralic Aries. And this comparison is done with the same DAC of course.

[miguelito]

One more comment here... My experience with PC is with a mini (with tweaks, see my profile) and an Auralic Aries (which I still have). The sound of the mini with upsampled CD rips (Audirvana, HQPlayer) is superior to the non-upsampled files. I don't think most if any streamers include upsampling.

[tboooe]

First of all, i am not sure why this thread degenerated so quickly into personal attacks. Opinions are welcome and of course lets remember in audio there is no absolute truth because the judgement on what sounds good is entirely subjective. My father loves music that is to me very very bright. I think this is due to some hearing loss suffered when he was in the Vietnam war. Anyway, I dont tell him he's wrong. I on the other hand like warm sounding music and I am equally not wrong.

 

That being said, i have owned some of the top level Esoteric gear (X-05, P1/D3 transport and DAC combo, G-01 external clock). In my opinion, a well designed streamer can sound as good as the Esoteric gear I have heard in my system, with my ears, in my room. Of course, the streamer needs pay close attention to jitter, power supply, etc. I miss my Esoteric purely for the engineering artistry and mastery point of view. However, computer audio has given me a new level of enjoyment due to how easy it is now to access my 40K song library and discover new artists.

 

To each their own.

[johndean]

One more comment here... My experience with PC is with a mini (with tweaks, see my profile) and an Auralic Aries (which I still have). The sound of the mini with upsampled CD rips (Audirvana, HQPlayer) is superior to the non-upsampled files. I don't think most if any streamers include upsampling.

 

Isn't Auralic going to do this down the road with a firmware update?

[Paul R]

One more comment here... My experience with PC is with a mini (with tweaks, see my profile) and an Auralic Aries (which I still have). The sound of the mini with upsampled CD rips (Audirvana, HQPlayer) is superior to the non-upsampled files. I don't think most if any streamers include upsampling.

 

Just curious, I am not sure up sampling in a streamer is at all the right place to do it. Why not do any necessary up sampling on the server hardware, be that a local PC or whatever? This eliminates (or should eliminate) the need for picky power supplies, quiet cases, etc., and supply the requirement for beefy processors that are swimming in MIPS.

 

The actual player can be on a separate low power system with great attention to power, internal wiring, etc.

 

[storage] -> [storage Server] -> [Music Processing/Control Server] -> [Transmission] -> [Receiver] -> [Player] -> [DAC] -> [analog output]

 

If I did not miss any "black box" steps above, the [Receiver] and [Player] part are what we typically call the "streamer" - yes? The non-music related parts, such as storage are separate and handled by units optimized for their particular work.

 

In this case, both the player and receiver components may be about as simple as they possibly can be. They can easily be hosted on lower power (i.e. low noise) platforms built with very high quality specifications. And because of that, the cost of a "streaming" player can be exceedingly low in comparison to units that have heavy duty power supplies and moving parts and a lot more logic.

 

The [DAC] can be separate or included with the [receiver] and [player]. Or you can host the [receiver] and [player] with the [DAC]. Same thing really. And both can be very good solutions.

 

I think that SOTA today is low power receiver/player, like a NAA or other network connected device that receives audio data over a network and sends it to a separate DAC. The host platform for the [receiver] and [player] can be a general purpose computer, or a general purpose computer that is configured as an embedded unit, or an embedded FGPA or other custom designed system of some kind. Yes?

 

Just like the old argument of integrated vs. separates, I think you can build a higher quality system with "separates" now than one can with any of the integrated units. That is really only just personal opinion / experience though.

[Paul R]

First of all, i am not sure why this thread degenerated so quickly into personal attacks.

 

Yeah- you are quite right. Apologies folks. -Paul

[miguelito]

Isn't Auralic going to do this down the road with a firmware update?

Maybe, I don't know. Obviously you can do this offline - I have used SampleManager to upsample with iZotope in the past just to give it a try. But you cannot, nor would want to, do this with HQPlayer (can you imagine saving upsampled DSD256 files?! ).

[miguelito]

Just curious, I am not sure up sampling in a streamer is at all the right place to do it. Why not do any necessary up sampling on the server hardware, be that a local PC or whatever? This eliminates (or should eliminate) the need for picky power supplies, quiet cases, etc., and supply the requirement for beefy processors that are swimming in MIPS.

Yeap, of course. But then you're left with one solution I am aware of: HQPlayer -> NAA, and the NAA bit is not a streamer (ie doesn't access your stored files and has some library software on it) but rather a renderer. Maybe I'm being a bit too stringent with the terminology...

 

And this leaves you with one option for a decent interface: Roon. Which is the best interface out there IMO, but not cheap.

 

I would definitely like Auralic to add NAA capability to the Aries. They have added RoonSpeakers which is awesome (and sounds great) but it does not include upsampling.

[johndean]

Maybe, I don't know. Obviously you can do this offline - I have used SampleManager to upsample with iZotope in the past just to give it a try. But you cannot, nor would want to, do this with HQPlayer (can you imagine saving upsampled DSD256 files?! ).

 

I thought I heard Mr. Wang mention that upsampling was a consideration down the road .

I could be wrong .

[pipis2010]

So here's an interesting story from today's experience:

 

I bet some will diss me, but I finally got round to listening to an Aurender N100, together with a 5K AMR DAC, both played through a Torus Power conditioner to keep everything off the grid and through Vienna Acoustics speakers (again their 5K series, dunno the exact model). Anyway, the sound was sublime I must confess and I am sure it would get better with even higher-end equipment.

 

Now, why the heck am I telling this story? Because, a decade ago I was fortunate to listen to one of the best CDP at the time (I recall it was a Japanese name and company or rather an engineer who built it, very-very boutique stuff). Anyway, the only thing I remember that stuck with me until now was the clarity, soundstage and bass that was pure magic! Yes, it was 10 years ago, it was a completely different system, much higher-end than today's system, but I think it comes to prove that technology and digital components have come a long way since.

 

Is something better than the rest? Maybe or maybe not. But what this thread here has taught me is to not forget to listen to the music. Sometimes, we get so carried away with all the new gadgets and improvements we can get, that we miss the final destination and that is the music itself!

 

With this final thought I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread and for all your opinions and feedback. I can only hope that you all enjoy the music, no matter the "vehicle" you use!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[miguelito]

I am always mystified when I read people's description of how some piece of audio gear sounds this way or the other in great detail... I generally have trouble pinpointing what makes it sound better/worse/different.

 

My measuring stick is instead whether I get mesmerized by the sound or not, and additionally if it relaxes me. Bizarre I know...

[eganz]

So here's an interesting story from today's experience:

 

I bet some will diss me, but I finally got round to listening to an Aurender N100, together with a 5K AMR DAC, both played through a Torus Power conditioner to keep everything off the grid and through Vienna Acoustics speakers (again their 5K series, dunno the exact model). Anyway, the sound was sublime I must confess and I am sure it would get better with even higher-end equipment.

 

...

 

First of all, these forums should be a place for us to share our experience and inspiration in the spirit of cooperation.

Secondly, it's great you're having a very musical experience using this particular equipment.

I recently purchased a used N100H, and it is a truly delightful source. I highly recommend it to you if you can afford it.

You should seek out the best musical experience that you can afford and perhaps build your equipment up over time.

 

Eric

[pipis2010]

I am always mystified when I read people's description of how some piece of audio gear sounds this way or the other in great detail... I generally have trouble pinpointing what makes it sound better/worse/different.

 

My measuring stick is instead whether I get mesmerized by the sound or not, and additionally if it relaxes me. Bizarre I know...

 

I agree with you, because in the end it is just that! Even if it comes from a "lower-end" or a higher-end system.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[pipis2010]

First of all, these forums should be a place for us to share our experience and inspiration in the spirit of cooperation.

Secondly, it's great you're having a very musical experience using this particular equipment.

I recently purchased a used N100H, and it is a truly delightful source. I highly recommend it to you if you can afford it.

You should seek out the best musical experience that you can afford and perhaps build your equipment up over time.

 

Eric

 

It is soooooo true what you say Eric!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[master]

Folks,

 

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

 

I'm one to follow it, its good advice, but some folks don't let up.

 

I'm all for healthy discussion, I'll even shut up when I don't know what I'm talking about or when someone better starts talking.

 

Paul however seems to get off on simply creating turmoil.

 

This is the 3rd of 4th thread that's he's done it. The first was some Apple thread, another was something about USB vs. HDMI.

 

I just stopped posting in those threads... you can never outargue an idiot.

 

I'm all about minding my own business... all I was talking about was streamers and my experience with them.

 

However Paul needs it to be his way or the highway.

 

The best CD players do not even come close to the best streamers. If younthink differently, you are welcome to your opinion, but you are quite wrong.

 

and this is not just once instance. Maye its his way of getting off...

 

Why not follow your advice Paul?

 

Why don't you just put me on your ignore list so you won't have to listen to opinions an experience that differs from your own?

 

Because if you don't then I'll get down to your level and start trolling you.

 

Pretty much on every thread... all you post is disinformation. Your advice sucks... all you do is play off iTunes.

 

Lets see how much fun its going to be if I start derailing every thread you post in... just for the heck of it.

 

Game on?

 

Maybe only an idiot can get it across to you... and I'm all ready to get down to that level if that's how you want to play it.

[master]

I think it's fair to say that one doesn't reach dimishing returns in CD player performance until you get to the Esoteric transports and high end DAC territory, whereas you might reach those levels much sooner (cost-wise) with a streamer.

 

I have an EmmLabs XDS1v2 (uses the Esoteric disc transport plus is a DAC like the Dac2x as well). CD/SACD performance is fantastic and easily rivals the performance of both my mini with all it's tweaks (see my system detail) or the Auralic Aries. And this comparison is done with the same DAC of course.

 

Aren't the streamers more expensive to begin with?

 

I've seen an Aurender costing nearly $18K. The Linn I've heard too was near $15K.

 

And I did say the Linn was as good (and even possibly better) than the best CDP I've heard.

 

My point was streamers enter into that performance only beyond a certain budget... but you seem to have the opposite experience.

 

The Philips CDP I grew up with, CD165, was cheap, yet had some of the best SQ I've heard.

 

Streamers at that budget don't compare (at least to my ears).

 

On the other hand even a mid-level BDP, I've the Oppo BDP-105D, is an excellent performer for what it costs... less than $1500. It even excels in audio CDs.