Streamers vs PC

[Richard Dale]

You could start with something simple and relatively inexpensive like the new SonicOrbiter SE from Sonore and take it from there. Just install Minimserver/Minimstreamer onto a NAS or PC/MAC with your music rips, download android or iPad tablet control software, put the SE into UPNP/DLNA mode and your off. From there you can experiment with LPSes, USB cables (Supra cables are used here), network isolation tweaks, USB enhancement boxes, etc. Later you can sell the SE and upgrade to a DIY PC or better streamer depending on your tinkering inclinations, skill level and enjoyment.

 

The SonicOrbiter SE is a Swiss army knife of streamers supporting PCM, native DSD and DSD DOP up to DSD512, with DLNA, HQplayer NAA and Roon supported so it won't be obsolete anytime soon.

 

Also Sonore does a great job of supporting their customers.

 

I agree with the above suggestions, and think the SonicOrbiter SE is a great solution with all the flexible software options it provides.

 

On the other hand, if you want to have a bit of DIY fun, I think it is fairly easy to make an appliance similar to the SonicOrbiter SE from small devices like the Raspberry Pi2, BeagleBone Black or CuBox. You can choose a box to put it in, line the box with Stillpoints ERS or 3M EMI shielding, add a suitable low noise PSU and operating system software like Volumio, Rune Audio, Voyage MuBox and so on. There is much less to do to customise these small boxes than there is compared with something like a CAPS custom PC, and it might be a good entry point for someone who likes to tinker.

[vortecjr]

And if you want to learn more about a dedicated PC check out the CAPS thread. That's where I started to learn more about PC audio and the various tweaks that may or may not have an impact in sound.

 

The SonicOrbiter definitely looks like an intriguing device but what's the fun in just having such a simple device that can't be tweaked? Lol.

 

You could try different power supplies, network isolator schemes, and USB hubs....that should keep you plenty busy. However, you could just use it as is and enjoy music for a change;)

 

Jesus R

[ClothEars]

You could try different power supplies, network isolator schemes, and USB hubs....that should keep you plenty busy. However, you could just use it as is and enjoy music for a change;)

 

Jesus R

 

Using it as is and enjoying the music - that's what I prefer. I'm not that savvy with computers and the idea of spending an enormous amount of time getting up to speed on all the technical details is a bit daunting.

 

Thankfully I still have my analogue gear so I might just spin a few LP's and stop chasing the digital promise of 'perfect' sound that sucked me in over 25 years ago!

[agillis]

And if you want to learn more about a dedicated PC check out the CAPS thread. That's where I started to learn more about PC audio and the various tweaks that may or may not have an impact in sound.

 

The SonicOrbiter definitely looks like an intriguing device but what's the fun in just having such a simple device that can't be tweaked? Lol.

 

I always say our job is the easiest. All we need to do is get the digital audio to the DAC in a clean way without adding any noise to the USB bus.

 

Then the real fun begins! All the different DAC choices, pre amps, amps, speakers. Never mind speaker placement and room treatments.

 

This forum is called Computer Audiophile so most of the information is about the digital source but there is a lot of fun and tweaking to be had on the analog side as well!

[pipis2010]

Thank you guys, these were the type of replies I was hoping to get!

From my own research as well, the main problems appears to be noise/RF and how to "clean" this until it gets to the DAC.

It's just a bit troubling to see that even 2K+ DAC units will benefit from simple accessories like Jitterbug, or Regen, etc. Then again, I do believe that a proper implementation of USB DACs, should come with the appropriate Clock(s) or their own power filters (because, apparently, you need to really move up the price chain to get some serious power filtering) - or I am wrong.

 

Either way, I don't seem to find any fault in using PCs, especially when using the special USB cards in PCs (PPA, JCAT, SoTM, etc) and good linear power supplies and power filters. Of course, in such a case, I found that ultimately the cost rises significantly and maybe it's "better", in terms of money, to get a streamer (Auralic, Aurender, etc, etc).

 

On the other hand, I just can't seem to be able to justify the higher costs of certain units, just because they have additional clocks or better power supplies or whatever, e.g. Aurender N100 VS Aurender W20, etc, or Antipodes/or CAD Servers (again just because they make their own power supplies, it's just too high costs), etc. Obviously, they can charge whatever they want, it's just a slim thought I have, if the price difference is indeed justified in terms of the technology and the SQ differences...Lastly, I am not targetting Aurender/CAD/Antipodes in any way, I used them only as an example.

 

What do you guys think? Are the higher costs in certain streamers/servers justifiable in the end, at least in terms of SQ differences? Just asking for your finds and feedback once again.

[davide256]

I always look at things from a "biggest return with least effort" perspective. Streaming gives you that under $2k for source solution to DAC. Once you get into custom MOBO for audio servers, I'm not sure which is better. After building my own PC's for years, I did not find it worth the pain of trying to build my own PC media solution with stock PC MOBO and tweaky solutions like Server 2012, Audiophile Optimizer and Jplay

[nikander]

"...Either way, I don't seem to find any fault in using PCs, especially when using the special USB cards in PCs (PPA, JCAT, SoTM, etc) and good linear power supplies and power filters. Of course, in such a case, I found that ultimately the cost rises significantly and maybe it's "better", in terms of money, to get a streamer (Auralic, Aurender, etc, etc) ..."

 

The "AFI-USB" (by Artistic Fidelity as well as the more sophisticated "AFIS") solved that problem for me:

 

the isolation from PC noise works that well that it doesn`t matter anymore in my setup if I take a tweaked PC or not.

There is the same experience of other users reported in the German Forum "aktives-hoeren.de" (http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6458)

 

regards,

 

Nikander

[master]

A good (and cheap) way to get the media streamer experience with a laptop or PC is to install a DLNA server like MinimServer. Throw in something like Raspberry Pi and you get to extend the functionality as well as the portability even more. Another solution is to use a NAS and a Raspberry Pi for similar streaming functionality. With these you can also isolate the PC (or NAS) and set it up in a different room.

 

Of course, streamers are not without their advantages though at a price. The truly high-end like Linn perform on an entirely different plane. Audio PCs would not compare, but then again they don't cost as much either. I have been building PCs for a long time, and most of my gaming as well as music rigs cost only a little over $2000.

 

All said and done, you can get a PC to function/perform as a streamer with the addition of free software and with the added perks of network isolation, sound isolation, WAF, etc.

[Ajax]

As already suggested it really depends on whether or not you want to tinker and experiment with the PC upgrades suggested here at CA or if you are happy to just enjoy the music. Both approaches are valid but if it is the later for you then the AURALIC ARIES MINI is worth a look.

 

I'm using it as both a server (with music files on a USB connected hard drive) and also a streamer playing files located on my iPhone via airplay. I control it with the free Auralic lightning DS app on my iPhone. Its internal DAC works well but I get better results with the USB or optical out into my Benchmark HDR DAC.

 

I find it simple to use and having the choice of being able to play local files or stream and also change DACs is enough versatility for me.

 

$500 including tidal subscription for a year in the US is very good value IMO.

 

From their web site:

 

"ARIES MINI is a wireless streaming node designed for connecting to your existing home audio system. It not only has shared all software and hardware functions coming from original ARIES, but also equipped with additional high quality analog output and optional hard drive slot for anyone whom don’t want to invest for a dedicate DSD DAC and NAS drive.

 

ARIES MINI can stream high-resolution music quickly and wirelessly in virtually any sampling rate, even for the latest Quad-Rate DSD and DXD. It is powered by AURALiC's proprietary Tesla hardware platform that includes a Quad-Core ARM Coretex-A9 processor running at 1GHz, 512MB DDR3 onboard memory and 4GB internal storage. The Tesla platform has a calculation ability of 25,000 MIPS, more than enough to decode a vast spectrum of audio formats, including AAC, AIFF, ALAC, APE, DIFF, DSF, FLAC, MP3, OGG, WAV, WV and WMA."

 

Go to AURALiC and lick on specification for more information.

 

Good luck

 

Ajax

[mayhem13]

Dude, I gotta say I come from the completely other side of this than you and many others here........and it gets me some angst as I'm not parallel with the forums core.

 

That being said, I'm pretty happy with simple solutions when available on the digital source end IF the analog part of the chain is strong. You'll often find me perfectly satisfied with my iPad mini hooked up analog to my pre/pro playing tracks from my server based iTunes library. Sometimes I'll used the iPhone 6 instead if I need to surf with the pad.

[pipis2010]

Dude, I gotta say I come from the completely other side of this than you and many others here........and it gets me some angst as I'm not parallel with the forums core.

 

That being said, I'm pretty happy with simple solutions when available on the digital source end IF the analog part of the chain is strong. You'll often find me perfectly satisfied with my iPad mini hooked up analog to my pre/pro playing tracks from my server based iTunes library. Sometimes I'll used the iPhone 6 instead if I need to surf with the pad.

 

Now that's interesting, especially of how much noise/RF might come out of those ports. Any comments or feedback, because theoretically I would imagine tablets/smartphones would be less prone to noise from their ports or am I being silly?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[nikander]

a guy from the German Forum "aktives-hoeren.de" posted this today:

 

Linn G-ADS-1 DAC (digital out - Linn streamer modified by Gert Volk) > PowerBox 4180 > Linkwitz LXmini

 

equals soundwise:

 

SurfacePro3 Tablet/USB > AFI-USB > PowerBox4180 > Linkwitz LXmini

 

regards

 

Nikander

[lmitche]

It makes sense that a Surface Pro sounds very good. Computer audio sound quality is all about power quality and isolation.

 

The Surface Pro above is isolated on the network side with WiFi. Likewise it is isolated on the AC side with its battery, a very clean power source. Lastly it is isolated by the AFI USB.

 

Why is this guy surprised it that the second config sounds so good?

[nikander]

It makes sense that a Surface Pro sounds very good. Computer audio sound quality is all about power quality and isolation.

 

The Surface Pro above is isolated on the network side with WiFi. Likewise it is isolated on the AC side with its battery, a very clean power source. Lastly it is isolated by the AFI USB.

 

Why is this guy surprised it that the second config sounds so good?

 

I didn`t know that the Surface Pro is already "tweaked" (but I don`t understand what you mean with Wifi Isolation) - it was me who was surprised.

[lmitche]

With WiFi the network connection is galvanically isolated, where a wired network connection is not, at least not to the same extent as no wires.

[Melvin]

With WiFi the network connection is galvanically isolated, where a wired network connection is not, at least not to the same extent as no wires.

 

It's been suggested elsewhere wifi produces it's own electrical issues thus negating the benefit. Do we need some sort of "wifi regeneration/isolation" device?

[devs]

I'm guessing he wrote that to express his happiness with the AFI-USB solution and how this makes, in his opinion, optimized hardware sound the same as unoptimized poor hardware. Laptops and tablets like the Surface contain so many power saving features, unnecessary hardware (for music playback) cramped into a small space and a noisy screen that these are generally not preferred over a CAPS style PC or any other optimized server/streamer solution.

 

WIFI by design is a strong emitter of RF, that can cause interference. I wouldn't want it near (as in IN) my hardware/system, same goes for ethernet over power cables. Prevention is better than curing, so I'd prefer an isolated wired ethernet solution (e.g. optical) over WiFi anytime.

[master]

It's been suggested elsewhere wifi produces it's own electrical issues thus negating the benefit. Do we need some sort of "wifi regeneration/isolation" device?

 

Sure why not? People will sell you anything as long as you are willing to pay for it, especially the more premium, the better.

 

I do hear wireless to be a lot better myself, and likewise a SOC/purpose built minicomputer or streamer to be a lot better than a traditional PC with premium components.

 

Galvanic isolation? Maybe or maybe not, it doesn't really matter as long as there is perceivable difference for the better.

[lmitche]

Yes, I have heard these arguments against WiFi as well, but have seen little evidence that the negative views are true.

 

It would seem your experience is positive. Mine is positive as well, although I only use the WiFi connection in my audio system to carry control signals from a tablet and for internet connections used in software updates and to access streaming sources like Tidal.

[Melvin]

My experience with wifi in the mix is positive as well. If there is some negative effect it is incredibly subtle but, as one member puts it, audio is the sport of subtleties.

[Paul R]

Now that's interesting, especially of how much noise/RF might come out of those ports. Any comments or feedback, because theoretically I would imagine tablets/smartphones would be less prone to noise from their ports or am I being silly?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

MM- this is a relative thing. How much noise do you think really comes out of those ports? I am willing to bet it is nowhere near as much as you think. On the other hand, there are numberless ways to improve on that output, though the caveat is how much are you willing to spend for a fractional improvement?

 

And on the gripping hand, there is the issue of getting stuck listening to the equipment when what you want to do is listen to the music.

 

I think you would find one of the CAPS computers from Small Green Computers a good place to start. You can always use a bigger "noisy" computer for a server and play the music on the more refined CAPs machine.

 

Alternately, you can use a Mac Mini or MacBook, both of which sound very good and yet have options that may improve the sound for you a lot. A bit less tinkering inside the box, and more tinkering using the USB bus. The big advantage of using a Mac however, is in the broad selection of high quality audiophile players you can access.

 

And as a third alternative, go with a Linux box and run HQPlayer on an Intel NUC or CUBE. Superb sound that way, and you get to tinker with both the hardware and the software! Heaven for a tinkering person.

 

And finally, if you are willing to put out between $8K and $10K, talk to Peter St. and get one of his glorious DAC, Computer, and XXHighEnd software combos. Windows based, so you can be sure there are a ton of software and hardware tinkering activities available to you.

 

-Paul

[mayhem13]

Now that's interesting, especially of how much noise/RF might come out of those ports. Any comments or feedback, because theoretically I would imagine tablets/smartphones would be less prone to noise from their ports or am I being silly?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Everything's relative to the room's noise floor and so from a 'real world' angle, all of these so called issues of system induced noise are for the most part pretty silly. Many of the proponents of clean power systems, esoteric cables and USB isolaters have tinnitus above their rooms noise floor!........is there a Superdad invention to overcome that?.........maybe the new and improved Regentin?.........lol. Sounds like an erectile disfunction medication.......which isn't far off from the overcompensation that goes on in audiophilia!

[tranz]

MM- this is a relative thing. How much noise do you think really comes out of those ports? I am willing to bet it is nowhere near as much as you think. On the other hand, there are numberless ways to improve on that output, though the caveat is how much are you willing to spend for a fractional improvement?

 

And on the gripping hand, there is the issue of getting stuck listening to the equipment when what you want to do is listen to the music.

 

I think you would find one of the CAPS computers from Small Green Computers a good place to start. You can always use a bigger "noisy" computer for a server and play the music on the more refined CAPs machine.

 

Alternately, you can use a Mac Mini or MacBook, both of which sound very good and yet have options that may improve the sound for you a lot. A bit less tinkering inside the box, and more tinkering using the USB bus. The big advantage of using a Mac however, is in the broad selection of high quality audiophile players you can access.

 

And as a third alternative, go with a Linux box and run HQPlayer on an Intel NUC or CUBE. Superb sound that way, and you get to tinker with both the hardware and the software! Heaven for a tinkering person.

 

And finally, if you are willing to put out between $8K and $10K, talk to Peter St. and get one of his glorious DAC, Computer, and XXHighEnd software combos. Windows based, so you can be sure there are a ton of software and hardware tinkering activities available to you.

 

-Paul

 

Or, none of the above.

 

Instead look for a streamer DAC and avoid all the expensive and time consuming tinkering, USB nonsense and headaches with all the buggy playback software.

[pipis2010]

Or, none of the above.

 

Instead look for a streamer DAC and avoid all the expensive and time consuming tinkering, USB nonsense and headaches with all the buggy playback software.

 

To be quite honest, Berkeley Audio USB seems to be the answer and might even save a few extra hundred bucks compared to buying all those power filters, etc. It seems their USB implementation is phenomenal for 2K of course, but still I have read only rave reviews so far...

 

Any other such interfaces that seem to be phenomenal? Maybe from M2Tech? I am referring to a USB-SPDIF shootout someone did, some time ago I think in this very site...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[nikander]

AFIS/AFI-USB or Mutec MC 3 + USB seem to be at least equal (if not better) and that for about 900,- dollars less.