Streamers vs PC

[master]

What extra benefits would you get by having a Linn? In my system, there's a dlna server on the PC, the dlna client delivers it's digital output to my DAC. What improvements would having a Linn give?

 

The Linn's I've heard are high end and obviously in high end setups... so take this as my personal thoughts/observations.

 

I have always been a CD person and even had 2-3 CDPs at home, starting with the Philips CD165 as a kid and an Ayon as my last CDP. But a few short years ago I made the move to PC just when it began to gain ground with audiophiles, but I've never heard it that good with a PC. I've heard a few great CDPs and transports over the years, the Esoteric comes to mind, Audio Note, and even the reference grade Forsell Air. Nothing a PC based setup would touch or rival. Until I heard the Linn... pretty much brought back the sound of some of the best CDPs I've heard and then some.

 

Maybe one reason why some audiophiles I know are still stuck on CDs and refuse to make the move to a PC based digital setup.

 

All said and done CD players are dead and buried for the most part, but with today's high resolution music, network players, music streamers, etc. most folks have not heard how good Audio CDs and CD resolution music sounds with a high end CD player and transport.

 

But hey I'm sure the Vinyl folks will say that too...

[pipis2010]

I am waiting for the day when a company will introduce components around the 1K mark that can compete directly with 2-3-5K DACs/Streamers/Servers...

 

 

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[Fitzcaraldo215]

The Linn's I've heard are high end and obviously in high end setups... so take this as my personal thoughts/observations.

 

I have always been a CD person and even had 2-3 CDPs at home, starting with the Philips CD165 as a kid and an Ayon as my last CDP. But a few short years ago I made the move to PC just when it began to gain ground with audiophiles, but I've never heard it that good with a PC. I've heard a few great CDPs and transports over the years, the Esoteric comes to mind, Audio Note, and even the reference grade Forsell Air. Nothing a PC based setup would touch or rival. Until I heard the Linn... pretty much brought back the sound of some of the best CDPs I've heard and then some.

 

Maybe one reason why some audiophiles I know are still stuck on CDs and refuse to make the move to a PC based digital setup.

 

All said and done CD players are dead and buried for the most part, but with today's high resolution music, network players, music streamers, etc. most folks have not heard how good Audio CDs and CD resolution music sounds with a high end CD player and transport.

 

But hey I'm sure the Vinyl folks will say that too...

 

I assume you are maybe talking about players via their internal DACs, or Not? In other words, is it possibly DAC/analog output stage differences, player mechanism differences, the way the disc spinner is interconnected to the internal DAC, etc.?

 

I do not know about sonic differences with pricey players, except that with more modest Oppo or Sony players (top of their lines), several of us have found CD playback from a PC hard drive to sound better, slightly but noticeably, than the player optical drive into the same DAC. And, an external DAC of quality could sound better than the player internal DAC.

 

But, I think most audiophiles are not doing computer audio with ripped files just because it is more work and more complicated, even with a packaged server. I think the sound advantage, if any, of traditional players has little role in that in most cases.

[JW Audio]

I am waiting for the day when a company will introduce components around the 1K mark that can compete directly with 2-3-5K DACs/Streamers/Servers...

 

 

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A company called Elac is coming out with a Rederer/Dac for around $1,000 very soon. It's going to have software similar to Roon. It's not Roon, but similar.

[pipis2010]

http://elac.com/product-category/sources/elac-discovery-music-server/

 

I am guessing this is the renderer you are talking about...interesting!

 

 

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[JW Audio]

That's the one. I'm really cosidering this for my next server.

[pipis2010]

That's the one. I'm really cosidering this for my next server.

 

To be honest it sounds quite sweet on paper and would definitely like to take a listen once it's available.

 

 

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[miguelito]

A company called Elac is coming out with a Rederer/Dac for around $1,000 very soon. It's going to have software similar to Roon. It's not Roon, but similar.

Roon is about the metadata, not the interface - although that's amazing as well...

 

[master]

I assume you are maybe talking about players via their internal DACs

 

Yes. Pretty much every CDP (at least the expensive ones) have an excellent DAC and a transport. Back then I came across very few CDPs with a digital out.

 

In other words, is it possibly DAC/analog output stage differences, player mechanism differences, the way the disc spinner is interconnected to the internal DAC, etc.?

 

I'd say the main components are the transport (Esoteric mainly), the onboard electronics - specifically the DAC.

 

End of the day they just managed jitter better.

 

I do not know about sonic differences with pricey players, except that with more modest Oppo or Sony players (top of their lines), several of us have found CD playback from a PC hard drive to sound better, slightly but noticeably, than the player optical drive into the same DAC. And, an external DAC of quality could sound better than the player internal DAC.

 

PCs, streamers, etc. just don't come close, at least not any of the ones I've heard. The closest they come to bettering the CDPs is with an external DAC starting at the $4000-5000 range... of course the yggy has changed that quite a bit at under $2500.

 

I think the sound advantage, if any, of traditional players has little role in that in most cases.

 

Possibly. I know I did spend 3 months ripping my CDs and tagging them and I'd never wish to do that ever again.

 

I think the sound advantage, if any, of traditional players has little role in that in most cases.

 

But its going to be even more difficult to convince a person to go with a PC based setup when the SQ does not compare or better what their $3000-5000 CDP outputs.

 

Think of it as a single unit, all-in-one Genelecs that perform better than separates 3 times their budget. Its very hard to convince someone who loves their Genelecs to look at separates at the same budget.

[davide256]

There is a lot to be said for DAC and streamer as an integrated unit... the problem is both are evolving rapidly at the moment and its too easy

to have a newer technology make streamer or DAC section obsolescent. Give it about 3 years to stabilize for innovation.

[YashN]

I've heard a few great CDPs and transports over the years, the Esoteric comes to mind, Audio Note, and even the reference grade Forsell Air. Nothing a PC based setup would touch or rival.

 

I agree about Esoteric: I actually had the opportunity of comparing it through two Conrad-Johnson tube pre-amp + amp with a rip on my MBP + my USB DAC and it sounded better!

[pipis2010]

There is a lot to be said for DAC and streamer as an integrated unit... the problem is both are evolving rapidly at the moment and its too easy

to have a newer technology make streamer or DAC section obsolescent. Give it about 3 years to stabilize for innovation.

 

I wonder, is it ever really going to stabilize? Just saying this because I doubt that DAC development will ever slow down (especially with new companies and new chips entering the market), even if the "holy grail" is reached (if it even exists).

Apparently it's a huge market with a lot of consumer interest lately, so I think it's bound to move faster than any other time - just my thoughts.

 

What I have understood though from these forums and my own research is that the power and the RF/noise, etc is the most important factor to consider, be it in a branded streamer/server or in a diy one - apparently it makes or breaks (metaphorically speaking) a DAC, even if it is a lower-end, much more if it is a hi-end one. Of course how one deals with this is merely his choice of components/filters/clocks, but ultimately the source of "evil" is noise itself.

 

 

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[Paul R]

Yes. Pretty much every CDP (at least the expensive ones) have an excellent DAC and a transport. Back then I came across very few CDPs with a digital out.

 

 

 

I'd say the main components are the transport (Esoteric mainly), the onboard electronics - specifically the DAC.

 

Last Esoteric CD player I heard was over at a CA's member's house a few years ago. it sounded excellent.

 

On the other hand, that was before DSD became popular, so I expect things to have changed.

 

End of the day they just managed jitter better.

 

 

 

PCs, streamers, etc. just don't come close, at least not any of the ones I've heard. The closest they come to bettering the CDPs is with an external DAC starting at the $4000-5000 range... of course the yggy has changed that quite a bit at under $2500.

 

When you measure by cost, perhaps. Had you heard the $100 NAA running with HQPlayer? It easily rivals any other streamer on the planet. Regardless of the cost. Some of the low cost Sonore units are flat out amazing too.

 

-Paul

[master]

Last Esoteric CD player I heard was over at a CA's member's house a few years ago. it sounded excellent.

 

On the other hand, that was before DSD became popular, so I expect things to have changed.

 

I did mention that folks have not heard CDs at their best... so it would be a great comparison to have.

 

FWIW, I've heard vinyl setups and one particular tape based Nakamichi Dragon unit that left me with similar thoughts too.

 

Streamers have just not matured to that extent yet... or even become that affordable for the masses.

 

When you measure by cost, perhaps. Had you heard the $100 NAA running with HQPlayer? It easily rivals any other streamer on the planet. Regardless of the cost. Some of the low cost Sonore units are flat out amazing too.

 

Price is really not the issue... my $35 Raspberry Pi actually sounds a lot better than my over $2000 PC as source/transport (well since switching to the Pi I use a NAS as source so one needs to factor in that cost too). My speakers have completely disappeared with the Pi... something I could never achieve with all the sources and amps I've tried over the years.

 

Could be a number of factors... Galvanic isolation, moOde Audio Player, the Pi itself as a SOC, maybe switching to optical and wireless... there is no one single thing to tie it down to.

 

And I have replicated it too. I convinced a friend to give the Pi a try and it sounded (even to his ears) better than his Cocktail Audio media streamer... so yes its not always about the price.

 

My point was that media streamers have not yet gotten things right to the point of sounding at their best or even making digital sound its best, something CD players managed in their heyday. But then like I said streamers have not matured to that point yet.

[pipis2010]

I did mention that folks have not heard CDs at their best... so it would be a great comparison to have.

 

FWIW, I've heard vinyl setups and one particular tape based Nakamichi Dragon unit that left me with similar thoughts too.

 

Streamers have just not matured to that extent yet... or even become that affordable for the masses.

 

 

 

Price is really not the issue... my $35 Raspberry Pi actually sounds a lot better than my over $2000 PC as source/transport (well since switching to the Pi I use a NAS as source so one needs to factor in that cost too). My speakers have completely disappeared with the Pi... something I could never achieve with all the sources and amps I've tried over the years.

 

Could be a number of factors... Galvanic isolation, moOde Audio Player, the Pi itself as a SOC, maybe switching to optical and wireless... there is no one single thing to tie it down to.

 

And I have replicated it too. I convinced a friend to give the Pi a try and it sounded (even to his ears) better than his Cocktail Audio media streamer... so yes its not always about the price.

 

My point was that media streamers have not yet gotten things right to the point of sounding at their best or even making digital sound its best, something CD players managed in their heyday. But then like I said streamers have not matured to that point yet.

 

Maybe we could say that streamers are still a bit more "exclusive" hence the high prices, but in a few years time the cost will go down and we'll see more and more excellent units appearing in the $500+ range, or just newer companies who will offer lower priced products.

 

 

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[Paul R]

I did mention that folks have not heard CDs at their best... so it would be a great comparison to have.

 

FWIW, I've heard vinyl setups and one particular tape based Nakamichi Dragon unit that left me with similar thoughts too.

 

Streamers have just not matured to that extent yet... or even become that affordable for the masses.

 

Well, the DirectStream Jr. is about to be released, I understand. Somewhere around the $4k mark, but with a built in Bridge II and apparently just "everything done right." I think $4k is still high, but it may make for one of the best "streamers" out there. Still need a backend to stream from and control it.

 

I really dispute your assertion - for the masses we have iPhones and such - all of which stream like crazy these days. In terms of quality, yeah, that needs work. But that is in large part to the source, not the device itself. MQA is perhaps the answer to the source quality issue.

Price is really not the issue... my $35 Raspberry Pi actually sounds a lot better than my over $2000 PC as source/transport (well since switching to the Pi I use a NAS as source so one needs to factor in that cost too). My speakers have completely disappeared with the Pi... something I could never achieve with all the sources and amps I've tried over the years.

 

Could be a number of factors... Galvanic isolation, moOde Audio Player, the Pi itself as a SOC, maybe switching to optical and wireless... there is no one single thing to tie it down to.

 

And I have replicated it too. I convinced a friend to give the Pi a try and it sounded (even to his ears) better than his Cocktail Audio media streamer... so yes its not always about the price.

 

My point was that media streamers have not yet gotten things right to the point of sounding at their best or even making digital sound its best, something CD players managed in their heyday. But then like I said streamers have not matured to that point yet.

 

Oh, I would say the streamers themselves are well past the quality of most CD players, and at least rival the quality of the best CD players. Certainly when you talk hi res material, less so perhaps when talking red book quality. Even there, IMO. Which is nothing more really than my opinion. Could be as wrong as rain in the desert.

[davide256]

Well, the DirectStream Jr. is about to be released, I understand. Somewhere around the $4k mark, but with a built in Bridge II and apparently just "everything done right." I think $4k is still high, but it may make for one of the best "streamers" out there. Still need a backend to stream from and control it.

 

I really dispute your assertion - for the masses we have iPhones and such - all of which stream like crazy these days. In terms of quality, yeah, that needs work. But that is in large part to the source, not the device itself. MQA is perhaps the answer to the source quality issue.

 

 

Oh, I would say the streamers themselves are well past the quality of most CD players, and at least rival the quality of the best CD players. Certainly when you talk hi res material, less so perhaps when talking red book quality. Even there, IMO. Which is nothing more really than my opinion. Could be as wrong as rain in the desert.

 

I think in both areas we are seeing a deeper understanding of the underlying realities of reproducing music. The underlying problem that has plagued digital solutions until the last 5 years is that designers have treated playback like a classical Newtonian physics problem... you only needed to solve for a single pitch and amplitude at a time across the frequency spectrum. The reality is that audio is a multi body (multiple instruments, harmonics) problem that includes the dimension of perceived location in space based on right/left amplitude differential... much higher order of bandwidth and bit depth requirement.

[Paul R]

I think in both areas we are seeing a deeper understanding of the underlying realities of reproducing music. The underlying problem that has plagued digital solutions until the last 5 years is that designers have treated playback like a classical Newtonian physics problem... you only needed to solve for a single pitch and amplitude at a time across the frequency spectrum. The reality is that audio is a multi body (multiple instruments, harmonics) problem that includes the dimension of perceived location in space based on right/left amplitude differential... much higher order of bandwidth and bit depth requirement.

 

There is a lot of good thinking in what you say there.

 

I wonder though, if (audiophiles) do not perhaps overthink some of the digital issues? It would understandable coming from a history of turntables and analog tape machines, all of which have peculiar quirks and often require what looks like voodoo rituals to tease the best performance out of them.

[davide256]

I don't see overthinking so much as I see lack of understanding of the science and misuse of telecommunications theories that were valid for human voice telephony but not for complex signals. FWIW my introduction to turntables was mentored by an acoustical physicist... There is a science to vibration and materials, it's not magic

[jb5200]

Ok, so I have the JRMC 20 installed on my home server and have it streaming to my 8801 however, it converts it to mp3 even though in JRMC I tell it to not convert in the Media Network section on the left and then client for Audio Convert. I have all wav files how do I play those as bit perfect?

[Paul R]

I don't see overthinking so much as I see lack of understanding of the science and misuse of telecommunications theories that were valid for human voice telephony but not for complex signals. FWIW my introduction to turntables was mentored by an acoustical physicist... There is a science to vibration and materials, it's not magic

 

Depends - you put those little dots on your tone arm and cartridge head? Doyon aerostat every record before you play em?

 

While I agree there is a science to vibration, and there are incredibly sensible things to do with it, some people carry its o nonsense extremes. The same is true of digital systems, and jus as crazy as rubbing electrect cream on your turntable plinth...

[Paul R]

Ok, so I have the JRMC 20 installed on my home server and have it streaming to my 8801 however, it converts it to mp3 even though in JRMC I tell it to not convert in the Media Network section on the left and then client for Audio Convert. I have all wav files how do I play those as bit perfect?

 

JRMC is pretty smart about converting output to a device that the device will accept. But given that, make sure you set the DSP settings in the zone that is streaming to your 8001. It should be able to stream pretty much anything, including DSD to that device.

 

You might want to ask over on the JRiver forum, though they will give you grief for worrying about the format. (I doubt anyone here will.)

 

Some of the members here know Marantz cold, they will probably respond here in short order.

 

-Paul

 

 

-Paul

[jb5200]

JRMC is pretty smart about converting output to a device that the device will accept. But given that, make sure you set the DSP settings in the zone that is streaming to your 8001. It should be able to stream pretty much anything, including DSD to that device.

 

You might want to ask over on the JRiver forum, though they will give you grief for worrying about the format. (I doubt anyone here will.)

 

Some of the members here know Marantz cold, they will probably respond here in short order.

 

-Paul

 

 

-Paul

 

Thanks Paul,

 

Ok after playing around abit I got it to play the wav file correctly but I cannot get my iphone with Jremote to work. I connected with the access key JRMC gave me and the player comes up but the wrong song shows on my phone and when I hit FF on the phone it goes to the next song on my phone but not on the Marantz.

 

Weird!

[master]

You have idea what you are talking about do you?

 

Oh, I would say the streamers themselves are well past the quality of most CD players, and at least rival the quality of the best CD players.

 

Either you have an experience like this

 

I agree about Esoteric: I actually had the opportunity of comparing it through two Conrad-Johnson tube pre-amp + amp with a rip on my MBP + my USB DAC and it sounded better!

 

and this...

 

the Esoteric comes to mind, Audio Note, and even the reference grade Forsell Air. Nothing a PC based setup would touch or rival.

 

Or you don't.

 

Let's leave it at that. I certainly for one don't have the time or even the need to argue with ignorance.

[kumakuma]

Oh, I would say the streamers themselves are well past the quality of most CD players, and at least rival the quality of the best CD players. Certainly when you talk hi res material, less so perhaps when talking red book quality. Even there, IMO. Which is nothing more really than my opinion. Could be as wrong as rain in the desert.

 

You have idea what you are talking about do you?

 

Either you have an experience like this

 

and this...

 

Or you don't.

 

Let's leave it at that. I certainly for one don't have the time or even the need to argue with ignorance.