Separate components vs. integrated?

[Teresa]

So DSP is bad mojo, but analog RIAA EQ for phono is ok?

 

IMHO, Yes.

 

DSP is equalization whose goal is to move the frequency response from "flat" to an adjusted one that is supposed to that take into consideration the sound of the room.

 

RIAA equalization is a form of pre-emphasis on recording and de-emphasis on playback. A recording is made with the low frequencies reduced and the high frequencies boosted, and on playback the opposite occurs. The net result is a flat frequency response, but with attenuation of high frequency noise such as hiss and clicks that arise from the recording medium. Reducing the low frequencies also limits the excursions the cutter needs to make when cutting a groove. Groove width is thus reduced, allowing more grooves to fit into a given surface area, permitting longer playing times. This also reduces physical stresses on the stylus which might otherwise cause distortion or groove damage during playback.

 

If your preamplifier doesn't give flat response when playing back an LP the RIAA tracking is off. The ultimate goal of RIAA is flat frequency response not change of EQ!

 

Personally I don't use real equalization either analog or digital (DSP) as its cure to my ears is worse than any tonal imbalances in my room. I either defeat tone controls or set them to flat.

[sandyk]

Personally I don't use real equalization either analog or digital (DSP) as its cure to my ears is worse than any tonal imbalances in my room. I either defeat tone controls or set them to flat.

 

 

Amen to that !

[Teresa]

My Bluejeans speaker cables (12 gauge wires) and banana plugs (the locking kind) cost $100. I consider that to be expensive.

 

My first speaker cables were Monster Cable Original (the clear ones) which were 95 cents per foot in the 1970's, so with terminations they were a little about $20 for the 10 foot pair.

 

Sometime later I replaced them with Monster Cable Powerline 2 Plus with banana plugs for around $80. Those are what I still use today, and I have no intention of ever changing.

[Teresa]

I have a tubed preamp and a solid state power amp. It's usually easier to find phono inputs on preamps and I had a turntable at the time.

[CR250]

I believe Blue Jeans buys the wire and terminates the cables themselves in many cases. Certainly that's what they say they do with their speaker wire. They sell either Belden or Canare for speaker wire. I was going to buy some when some Audioquest speaker cables came up on audiogon for the same price, so I bought those. They were prettier. I then spent a little more than Blue Jeans to get matching Audioquest interconnects and subwoofer cable from audioadvisor.com. I'm fairly agnostic about cable but at least they are well built and pretty.

That's why people have bad experiences with cables. If you don't treat them like any other purchase, you sell yourself short. You wouldn't take that approach with an amp or speaker, so why do it with cables? If the AQ didn't improve your SQ, send them back and put the money towards something that will. There's plenty of retailers that will send you demo's or give a full refund. AA is one of them. Don't settle.Another factor to consider with cables is what you should expect from them. One thing that reviews do very well is explain in detail what they are hearing. They use very colorful language, and I believe that, for the most part, they're being honest and mean well. Where they fail is in context. They don't do a good job explaining how much of a difference you can expect. You can read a cable review and a speaker review and walk away thinking both pieces are equally important. There's always a rare exception, but that's not usually the case. So I think it would be fair to say that cables are usually a more difficult purchase than typical components. They make a bigger difference the more revealing your system is. Not only that, it takes some experience to here some of these differences. Picking through different IC's and speaker cables is usually not a beginners task. Its much harder to do than listening to different speakers. Personally, I own cables at all levels made by various companies. That said, if you don't hear a difference with more expensive cables, or even hear a difference but don't see the value, don't buy them. Period. It would be foolish to do otherwise. (That applies to all components, not just cables.)

[Snowmonkey]

Personally I don't use real equalization either analog or digital (DSP) as its cure to my ears is worse than any tonal imbalances in my room. I either defeat tone controls or set them to flat.

Amen to that !

That was my finding too, but I figured that's because my room acoustics were pretty good to start with. For a problem situation, it might be a different story.

[YashN]

I'd never buy any amp/dac/streamer etc with DSP.

 

Or else check if the device allows you to disable the DSP circuit: my SS amp does and I disable it most of the time (always for audio, but it's necessary for movie surround).

[CR250]

So DSP is bad mojo, but analog RIAA EQ for phono is ok?

RIAA EQ isn't optional. If you want to listen to a record, the signal has to be run through it.

[sandyk]

RIAA EQ isn't optional. If you want to listen to a record, the signal has to be run through it.

 

BTW, normally implemented RIAA EQ isn't always good for the highest SQ. If in the feedback path of an opamp, as it mostly is these days, then it can degrade results compared with passive RIAA EQ or RIAA EQ. with discrete circuitry.

[gmgraves]

George

DIY People do these kinds of things.

Almost all affordable commercially available gear is capable of a further audible improvement by experienced DIYers due to cost cutting in some area.

 

Alex

 

I agree 100%. But that does not explain how poster "tranz" has ascertained that amps with separate power supplies always sound better as a rule of thumb. And if that is, indeed so, what are the parameters under which it is so? Do separate power supplies sound better all things being equal, or are there other factors at work here?

[sandyk]

I agree 100%. But that does not explain how poster "tranz" has ascertained that amps with separate power supplies always sound better as a rule of thumb. And if that is, indeed so, what are the parameters under which it is so? Do separate power supplies sound better all things being equal, or are there other factors at work here?

 

George

It would be problematical having external PSUs for higher powered amplifiers due to cable voltage drop, connectors etc. but I get great results using external well regulated dual + and -20V supplies in a nearby 2U rack case for my 15W/Ch. 8 ohms Class A amplifier,(30W Class AB/ 4 ohms) and this case also houses 2 x 18-0-18V transformers to feed AC into my Class A Preamp. This keeps stray AC fields well clear of the Preamps internal circuitry, which of course assists with S/N and channel separation as well. A key factor to success is also the earthing methods used. With my preamp the case isn't earthed,(the centre taps of the incoming AC are connected to chassis, but not connected to earth in the PSU case) and the reference earths (dual mono construction) are from the Power amplifier itself. These earths are then extended via the input selector switch, which also switches the earth side of the individual input that has been selected, back to the source component.

 

Alex

[firedog]

IMHO, Yes.

 

DSP is equalization whose goal is to move the frequency response from "flat" to an adjusted one that is supposed to that take into consideration the sound of the room.

 

RIAA equalization is a form of pre-emphasis on recording and de-emphasis on playback. A recording is made with the low frequencies reduced and the high frequencies boosted, and on playback the opposite occurs. The net result is a flat frequency response, but with attenuation of high frequency noise such as hiss and clicks that arise from the recording medium. Reducing the low frequencies also limits the excursions the cutter needs to make when cutting a groove. Groove width is thus reduced, allowing more grooves to fit into a given surface area, permitting longer playing times. This also reduces physical stresses on the stylus which might otherwise cause distortion or groove damage during playback.

 

If your preamplifier doesn't give flat response when playing back an LP the RIAA tracking is off. The ultimate goal of RIAA is flat frequency response not change of EQ!

 

Personally I don't use real equalization either analog or digital (DSP) as its cure to my ears is worse than any tonal imbalances in my room. I either defeat tone controls or set them to flat.

 

 

I think at least part of esldude's point was that RIAA curves built into phono preamps are known to be inaccurrate, so by using them you are coloring your music- in essence you are adding a tone control which isn't supposed to be there.

 

BTW, with computers you can have a digital RIAA curve which is much more accurate and true to RIAA standard than analog (HW) curves; a known technique for quality vinyl ripping is to rip flat (not thru a phono pre with RIAA in play) and then playback with a digital RIAA curve added in by software. Many feel this gives a superior result.

 

DSP can be many things, it's not a synonym for Room Correction. RC is one use of DSP. In digital playback, whatever you are using it for, it probably gives a more accurate result than trying the equivalent adjustment in analog.

[Francis Hemeter]

I think you also differentiate between all in one box DAC and class A A/B amps and integrated digital class D amplifiers. I am very happy with my small NAD D3020 integrated DAC/Amplifier (amplifications is in the digital realm) so is volume control. 30W continuous 120W into 0 ohms dynamic power, and continual power usage about 30% of a class A, A/B amps. I know a lot of people don't care about the power usage, but class A/B Onkyo amp is like a room heater that I continually forget to turn off, definitely not needed in the tropics where I live. EQ can be done in the digital realm on your player PC/MAC software if you are into that. The footprint is smaller than a lot of headphone amps, USB connection does not require any magic high end cables (I am using printer cable). Can be found new from about $430. Amazing low floor level noise and bang for buck. No wall wart either to deal with.

 

I think they need a sub forum for amps, even if covered elsewhere maybe a sub forum for integrated amps only being computer audiophile

[sandyk]

BTW, with computers you can have a digital RIAA curve which is much more accurate and true to RIAA standard than analog (HW) curves; a known technique for quality vinyl ripping is to rip flat (not thru a phono pre with RIAA in play) and then playback with a digital RIAA curve added in by software. Many feel this gives a superior result.

 

I presume that you mean a low noise cartridge impedance matching amplifier without RIAA EQ components ?

[sandyk]

I think they need a sub forum for amps, even if covered elsewhere maybe a sub forum for integrated amps only being computer audiophile

 

What makes you think that most members would use integrated amplifiers, especially those that use very high quality DACs etc. ?

[Francis Hemeter]

I don't assume members will use integrated amps, but I assume somebody has already made a conscious decision not to have an amp subforum, maybe because such content is replicated in a lot of other forums (not that it is not spread around here as well). So just suggesting something that might not have been considered before. I would love to see headphones and speakers separated too. Like we have the rest of the playback chain covered why no amp forum? I don't know.

[Windows X]

Separate components as separate power supply unit in different boxes. Some manufacturers put power supply unit in separate box for good reasons. It also provides possibility of better tone control via fine tuning too.

 

Regards,

Windows X

[firedog]

I presume that you mean a low noise cartridge impedance matching amplifier without RIAA EQ components ?

 

And I presume you are under the delusion that such a setup is typical, or even at all common? Most turntable owners don't have audiophile setups.

[sandyk]

I would love to see headphones and speakers separated too.

 

Scroll down through the list of sub forums and you will find a Headphones and Speakers sub forum.

Dale is a major contributor in the Headphones area.

[sandyk]

And I presume you are under the delusion that such a setup is typical, or even at all common? Most turntable owners don't have audiophile setups.

 

I don't know where that came from, as I asked a simple question. The output from Moving coil cartridges for example is normally below 5mV, and they normally need a very low noise well shielded preamplifier to get a decent S/N without hum.

For all I knew, there could be such preamps available commercially these days as I haven't owned a TT for many years.

Even TTs with USB output which are quite common these days at reasonable prices ,would need something similar.

[4est]

l'd love to see some links to this information. I greatly struggle with the concept that one's RIAA curve can be bettered via ADC>DAC with gain just to get what can be done with passive inline parts as part of a gain stage. I am not saying it is not possible, but it gives me cause to wonder what type of phono stage they were otherwise using.

I think at least part of esldude's point was that RIAA curves built into phono preamps are known to be inaccurrate, so by using them you are coloring your music- in essence you are adding a tone control which isn't supposed to be there.

 

BTW, with computers you can have a digital RIAA curve which is much more accurate and true to RIAA standard than analog (HW) curves; a known technique for quality vinyl ripping is to rip flat (not thru a phono pre with RIAA in play) and then playback with a digital RIAA curve added in by software. Many feel this gives a superior result.

[Audio_ELF]

I suspect that the Naim comment was in response to my post where I said:

 

"Sounds better than what? When have you been able to compare the same amp with and without separately packaged power supplies? I didn't know anyone made a single model amp that was available both ways."

 

So my question is, does Naim make an amplifier model that is available either with a built-in power supply or a separate power supply?

George ... Don't think anyone replied to his question so I will.

 

Naim build a variety of pre-amps which can be powered by a supply in the power amps. These sound good (at least to my ears) however the pre-amp can be upgraded by adding better external power supplies, which raises the overall sound level.

 

Also Naim's sources (CD players, streamers and DACs) can mostly be upgraded with an external supply which lifts the sound quality.

 

As I recall Bryston and Densen also have pre-amps with a basic power supply which can be upgraded with an external supply. I'm sure there are others too but can't think of them off top of my head.

[lmitche]

Modwright has at least one preamp that can be upgraded with an external power supply.

 

It should be said that many of the Naim external power supplies are actually multiple power supplies in one box. I had an XPS with three power supplies of different voltages in the one box. The XPS was designed to power a Naim CD player.

[semente]

I would love to see headphones and speakers separated too.

 

Me too.

 

R

[CR250]

BTW, normally implemented RIAA EQ isn't always good for the highest SQ. If in the feedback path of an opamp, as it mostly is these days, then it can degrade results compared with passive RIAA EQ or RIAA EQ. with discrete circuitry.

I'm not saying that there won't be quality differences between between components used to play back a record. Just that RIAA EQ isn't optional if you want to listen to one.