Separate components vs. integrated?

[sandyk]

If I had a 20x60 foot listening room and an unlimited budget, I'd look at high end separates - but I'm not at all certain I'd adopt them given the current availability of so much great and simple stuff.

 

You don't need a 20 x 60 foot listening room to benefit from the higher performance of well designed separates.

I use DIY separates because I can't afford the asking price of the more expensive and higher performing gear.

If you are happy with the level of performance from a modern integrated unit, then I guess that's what matters most.

[gmgraves]

I prefer even separate boxes for the power supply. Sounds better to my ears

 

Sounds better than what? When have you been able to compare the same amp with and without separately packaged power supplies? I didn't know anyone made a single model amp that was available both ways.

[Richard Dale]

Naim maybe?

[PopPop]

Ive been down the massively expensive separates road. I even tried not so massively expensive separates. Now for the sake of my wallet, my sanity, and my desire to simplify, I own an integrated, and have for a while now. I still have a separate DAC/Phono Amp/ and turntable, but could not be happier with the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Intergated I have now.

 

Quoted for the truth!

[gmgraves]

Naim maybe?

 

 

I suspect that the Naim comment was in response to my post where I said:

 

"Sounds better than what? When have you been able to compare the same amp with and without separately packaged power supplies? I didn't know anyone made a single model amp that was available both ways."

 

So my question is, does Naim make an amplifier model that is available either with a built-in power supply or a separate power supply? And in these two models of the same amp circuit, is the separation of the one power supply and not the other, the only difference between the two models? If that is the only difference; i.e. that one unit has the power supply on the same chassis as the amplifier circuitry, while the other has the power supply circuitry on a separate chassis located remotely from the amplifier chassis itself and connected by a an umbilical cord, are we sure that this difference is THE reason that the two otherwise identical amps sound different, and do we know that this difference would extend to any amplifier that was sold either with an integrated power supply, or optionally, with a remotely mounted power supply?

 

Understand, I'm not trying to be difficult here, I have no idea of which would sound the best or even why they should. I've never heard an amp that was available those two ways. But it just seems to me that this question requires more of an explanation than merely "I prefer even separate boxes for the power supply. Sounds better to my ears".

[bluesman]

You don't need a 20 x 60 foot listening room to benefit from the higher performance of well designed separates.

Maybe I should have referred to a room in which I can achieve SPLs beyond conversational level. I simply don't hear any clear advantages at the low levels to which I'm limited by apartment living in smaller rooms.

[sandyk]

Sounds better than what? When have you been able to compare the same amp with and without separately packaged power supplies? I didn't know anyone made a single model amp that was available both ways.

 

George

DIY People do these kinds of things.

Almost all affordable commercially available gear is capable of a further audible improvement by experienced DIYers due to cost cutting in some area.

 

Alex

[Ajax]

There are many minimalistic systems I have enjoyed so far on my HiFi journey and don't feel in anyway compromised.

 

1. Turntable / Integrated / Passive speakers

I started my hifi journey in 1983 with a Linn Sondek turntable playing into a Naim Nait amp and Tannoy Ardent speakers - awesome sound.

 

2. Preamp / DAC into Active Speakers

I disliked the early CD players and only got back into serious HiFi in 2005 via computer audio. By chance a father at my son's school owned a pro audio supply business whose focus was on the supply and construction of recording studios. We got talking and he explained to me that with the right gear, and when properly set up, digital could sound fantastic. With his advice I purchased a Benchmark HDR Preamp/DAC and a pair of Adam A7 active monitors. System cost of about US$3k (you can pick it up second hand today for around US$2k). With Aurdirvana / iTunes as the source that was my home office system for about 5 years and it was incredibly flexible and simple to use (2 x coaxial, 1x optical, 1 x USB inputs, 1 x analogue, balanced and RCA out, and 2 x headphones 1/4"). the system produced awesome sound in a small room, especially when fed with well recorded material via Audirvana from the likes of Peter Gabriell's and B&W's Society of Sound.

 

3. Integrated/DAC into Passive speakers

Last year I got itchy feet and purchased the Devialet 200 Ensemble (with OTHM G1 Speakers) for my living room. I find this system produces another step up in performance ($US10k) and easily feels a room of 20' x 20'. As they say the equipment vanishes and you are simply left with the music.

 

Staying with the minimalistic approach I also purchased a Marantz PM6005 Integrated (US$700) and Wharfdale 220 speakers ($US350) together with an ATV ($100) for my beach house. We have lots of visitors so I needed some thing that was intuitive and easy to use. This system is perfect for our needs as it allows the kids to stream directly from the Spotify app on their iPhones.

 

Marantz have been making great amps for over 50 years and if you are looking for an all in one first system, or a high quality second system, IMO the PM6005 represents exceptional value, having both optical and coaxial inputs, and also provision for a second set of speakers (which I use for playing music through all weather speakers on my balcony). It plays very loud into the Wharfdales (sensitivity = 86db) without a hint of distortion.

 

MARANTZ PM6005 OWNER'S MANUAL Pdf Download.

 

4. Aural Mini / Poweramp/ Passive Speakers

I don't usually buy much gear but I have been on a bit of a spree lately and also purchased the Auralic Mini ($550), with 9,000 lossless Redbook and high res tracks available via an external HD. I connect the Mini via a Halo A23 power amp ($200 second hand) into ATC speakers.

 

I think the Mini is a terrific "minimalistic concept" being very mobile and versatile as it allows me to play local files as well as stream. I have it with me now at my beach house and have connected it to the Marantz's optical and RCA inputs. My initial A/B impression is that the DAC in the Marantz is slightly more revealing than the Mini's but not by a lot.

 

 

AURALiC

 

 

All the best,

 

 

Ajax

[fritzg]

You install a server on the NAS and use a smartphone or tablet to control it. You can use Ethernet to connect to a Chromecast, but as they are intact files being sent to the Chromecast for rendering, it's not really an interconnect problem.

 

Aren't tablets and phones and a NAS all computers?

[fritzg]

Please enlighten me as to what you consider an Audiophile Standard interconnect is ?

 

All the interconnects I see reviewed on places like audiostream cost way more than Blue Jeans cables. I thought audiophiles needed to spend at least 10% of their system budget on interconnects. If someone spent $1000 on speakers, I assumed the minimum they would spend on speaker cables would be $100.

[Snowmonkey]

Aren't tablets and phones and a NAS all computers?

Well yes, as is a Chromecast or an Apple TV. The point I was trying to make is that the device which controls playback does not have to be part of the playback chain, which means everything else can potentially be in one box and controlled remotely - no need for a PC.

[sandyk]

I thought audiophiles needed to spend at least 10% of their system budget on interconnects

 

Maybe some feel the need to do so, but that is rubbish. Good speaker leads are a bit more expensive though due to the much greater copper content, and the need for quality lockable banana plugs etc.

Let's hope you don't get George all fired up on this subject !

[wgscott]

All the interconnects I see reviewed on places like audiostream cost way more than Blue Jeans cables. I thought audiophiles needed to spend at least 10% of their system budget on interconnects. If someone spent $1000 on speakers, I assumed the minimum they would spend on speaker cables would be $100.

 

My Bluejeans speaker cables (12 gauge wires) and banana plugs (the locking kind) cost $100. I consider that to be expensive.

[AudioDoctor]

Blue Jeans cables are used exclusively in my main system. I have mono price cables in my home office system...

[Oystein]

I already went down in box count the last few years.

 

From this in 2013:

To this in 2015:

 

 

Still using a seprate power and pre-amplifier.

 

Main reason was the quality of the power amp ( Odyssey Karthago - Plus version with some upgraded parts and 60.000 uF extra capacitors ) for which I would otherwise need a very expensive intergrated to match this one.

 

Skipped DVD-recorder - watching movies with new smart TV online

Skipped CD player - streaming via Beaglebone Black + DAC put together in an enclosure (the small wooden box to the right of the pre-amp)

Skipped the tuner - listen http streams via BBB

 

Future plans would be a pre with intergrated DAC.

 

The new smart TV has a slot for the smartcard so the seperate decoder box is also gone.

[CR250]

All the interconnects I see reviewed on places like audiostream cost way more than Blue Jeans cables. I thought audiophiles needed to spend at least 10% of their system budget on interconnects. If someone spent $1000 on speakers, I assumed the minimum they would spend on speaker cables would be $100.

 

 

It's not good to assume stuff like that. Sometimes you can get away spending less than 10%, while other times, you may need to spend more. Best to figure this type of thing out for yourself, otherwise you run the risk of wasting your money on cables, regardless of how much they cost. Also, Blue Jeans doesn't make cables (as far as I know). They specialize in selling low cost cables made by other companies. You may be able to find reviews on brands they sell.

It's not good to assume

[wgscott]

They use high-grade wires, like Belden, and assemble into cables.

 

I think you will find the foofie cables are done the same way (except not always from high-grade wire), sometimes dressed up in a garden hose to give the illusion of being robust.

[davidbeinct]

It's not good to assume stuff like that. Sometimes you can get away spending less than 10%, while other times, you may need to spend more. Best to figure this type of thing out for yourself, otherwise you run the risk of wasting your money on cables, regardless of how much they cost. Also, Blue Jeans doesn't make cables (as far as I know). They specialize in selling low cost cables made by other companies. You may be able to find reviews on brands they sell.

It's not good to assume

 

I believe Blue Jeans buys the wire and terminates the cables themselves in many cases. Certainly that's what they say they do with their speaker wire. They sell either Belden or Canare for speaker wire. I was going to buy some when some Audioquest speaker cables came up on audiogon for the same price, so I bought those. They were prettier. I then spent a little more than Blue Jeans to get matching Audioquest interconnects and subwoofer cable from audioadvisor.com. I'm fairly agnostic about cable but at least they are well built and pretty.

[mordante]

So DSP is bad mojo, but analog RIAA EQ for phono is ok?

 

RIAA and DSP have nothing in common.

[esldude]

RIAA and DSP have nothing in common.

 

Really you may have a point. One does EQ with great precision and minimal impact otherwise. The other does EQ with less precision and side effects which are also impacted by other parts of the signal chain.

[orgel]

My Bluejeans speaker cables (12 gauge wires) and banana plugs (the locking kind) cost $100. I consider that to be expensive.

 

I have a pair of those, and I really like the locking banana plugs. Very secure and much easier to deal with than the spades on my fancy-shmancy cables (which are indeed dressed up in a garden hose, but which have a lot of magic dust inside).

 

--David

[orgel]

One does EQ with great precision and minimal impact otherwise. The other does EQ with less precision and side effects which are also impacted by other parts of the signal chain.

 

Agree completely, but the correct joke form is:

 

One does EQ with great precision and minimal impact otherwise. The other is RIAA.

 

--David

[esldude]

Agree completely, but the correct joke form is:

 

One does EQ with great precision and minimal impact otherwise. The other is RIAA.

 

--David

 

+1

[4est]

Gosh, could you obfuscate this just a little more? Mordante was correct in my opinion, and about the only thing these two items have in common is that they are forms of EQ. I find it a bit of a shame that you spend so much energy attempting to repackage your limited view as something funny and or apropos. FWIW, to my knowledge the RIAA curve was chosen in part that it is a relatively easy filter to create and implement.

Really you may have a point. One does EQ with great precision and minimal impact otherwise. The other does EQ with less precision and side effects which are also impacted by other parts of the signal chain.

[gmgraves]

Maybe some feel the need to do so, but that is rubbish. Good speaker leads are a bit more expensive though due to the much greater copper content, and the need for quality lockable banana plugs etc.

Let's hope you don't get George all fired up on this subject !

 

 

Not fired-up. But at least I can show that even very good (for 90% of the speaker applications out there, anyway) speaker cables: 12 GA, Oxygen-Free Copper, 259 strand, terminated with very high-quality, tight-fitting, banana plugs, don't have to cost and arm and a leg -

 

http://tinyurl.com/puaxx7y

 

Of course some speakers are such a difficult load that the only way to find the correct cables is via trial-and-error. Luckily, most speakers don't fall in that category.