Separate components vs. integrated?

[davidbeinct]

"I love performance and fine machinery, not rowing my car through rush hour traffic."

 

That's because you're driving an automatic. I blast through rush hour traffic so fast you'll never see me on one of those police chase shows.

 

"Screw top wine bottles are better than corks at protecting and maintaining the wine they contain."

 

Now who's living in the past? All the best wine is boxed.

 

"A computer can make many (if not most) medical decisions with a higher probability of a good outcome than I or my colleagues can (I'm a surgeon)."

 

That's OK. Just keep practicing any you'll get better. (Just not on me)

 

Kinda obvious, although not too mean spirited, trolling, but... I don't think bluesman was saying the best wine came in screw tops (although some does) but rather that it was a better closure. I don't think anyone would argue the best wines are in boxes, although there are some okay ones, certainly better than they used to be.

 

As for auto transmission, I like the feeling of coming off the clutch too much to go auto for a sports car (or motorcycle, in my case).

[PopPop]

Kinda obvious, although not too mean spirited, trolling, but... I don't think bluesman was saying the best wine came in screw tops (although some does) but rather that it was a better closure. I don't think anyone would argue the best wines are in boxes, although there are some okay ones, certainly better than they used to be.

 

As for auto transmission, I like the feeling of coming off the clutch too much to go auto for a sports car (or motorcycle, in my case).

 

OT warning: I nearly killed myself riding a 650 Burgman down a steep grade in eastern Wyoming. With no standard transmission to hold me back, I burned up the brakes trying to scrub off speed of the descent.

[fritzg]

One of the main advantages is the ability to have completely separate power supplies, which usually results, among other things, in improved channel separation. Are interconnects REALLY of such a concern as many members suggest, if they use decent interconnects of a suitable length to start with ? e.g. from Blue Jeans cables etc.

 

I thought Blue Jeans cables were well below audiophile standards.

[fritzg]

The Chromecast is showing that a PC is no longer necessary in the playback stream.

 

How do you use a Chromecast without a PC? Doesn't it have to be controlled by something and have something to stream to it? I also though wifi was considered to be the worst of interconnects.

[fritzg]

I thought the Apple TV required the controlling device (iPad, iPhone, Mac) to be a part of the playback stream.

 

Nope. AppleTV streams directly from the cloud.

[speavler]

Autos are still slush boxes, unless you're talking about the dual clutch setups. True manuals are still more fun and engaging if you ask me. I guess when we are all in driverless cars it'll be such great progress!

[wgscott]

I thought Blue Jeans cables were well below audiophile standards.

 

Not when used with audiophile-grade electrons.

[Snowmonkey]

How do you use a Chromecast without a PC? Doesn't it have to be controlled by something and have something to stream to it? I also though wifi was considered to be the worst of interconnects.

You install a server on the NAS and use a smartphone or tablet to control it. You can use Ethernet to connect to a Chromecast, but as they are intact files being sent to the Chromecast for rendering, it's not really an interconnect problem.

[sandyk]

I thought Blue Jeans cables were well below audiophile standards.

 

Please enlighten me as to what you consider an Audiophile Standard interconnect is ?

A good quality interconnect for an unbalanced connection will be of a well screened coaxial type construction,(usually double screened) and use good quality, well fitting plugs. The thin throwaway leads that often come with BluRay players etc.do not meet this qualification.

There should be very little audible differences (if any) between cables such as the Blue Jeans cables, and others that meet these specifications when using typical length interconnects between 1 and 2 metres long. The Blue Jeans LC2 cable is an exception here, at least in the 2M length, as it has a much lower capacitance than a typical 65 to 75 ohm coaxial type construction cable and may sound a little more detailed at the output of some DACs etc. that do not have a low output impedance output stage.

[rodrigaj]

I thought Blue Jeans cables were well below audiophile standards.

 

I have been using Blue Jeans Cables for about 5 years. I use their RCA interconnects and speaker cables. I also use their HDMI and toslink cables which I believe they simply buy from various vendors.

 

I only wish they sold phono cables and power supply cables. The quality is outstanding, they will make them to whatever lengths you need and they ship quickly. Not sure about audiophile standards, but their website offers many pages of information on the engineering concerns of good cable design.

[esldude]

I prefer to make my own interconnect. I look for scrap wiring in old housing pre-1969 when the copper was really good. Melt it and cast to my own specs. Let it solidify in an orientation exactly in line with the north magnetic pole. That way I know the proper in and out orientation for the signal flow. Use only cotton or virgin silk obtained from cocoons found on Japanese maple for insulation. That does get to be a hassle though.

 

So I order from Monoprice or BJC when I am short of vintage copper material or silk. Plus I won't use Chinese cotton either. Algodon cotton is some marketing hype BS developed simply to circumvent international trade rules on Pima cotton.

[gmgraves]

What is the logic behind having separate components, apart from the ability to upgrade with modularity?

 

It seems like interconnects are a significant source of concern, a problem that doesn't really arise in a unit that has a DAC and a pre and an amp.

 

(For present purposes, let's consider powered/active speakers as an extreme case of integrated.)

 

The only real disadvantage to integrated amplifiers is the fact that both the preamp and the power amp share a power supply. That means that if one of the two circuits (amp vs preamp) goes down, they both do. The other minor disadvantage, which won't affect the vast majority of users, is the difficulty in some cases of bi-amping. You are correct that an integrated eliminates any possible complications from interconnects between pre-power amp. Otherwise, integrated amps can be every bit as good as separates.

[mordante]

Integrated vs separates in a pointless discussion. It is all personal. Of you really like pure class A 100w amps chances are that you end up with separates. if you prefer class D 50w an integrated will do just fine.

 

I myself have an integrated amp. But still have a separate DAC, phono pre amp streamer etc. Also when is a integrated amp integrated? I have seen 3 box integrated amps (1 control box 2 power supplies).

 

If I had the money I'd buy separates.

[BaxieBull]

As per my experience there are a lot of things in audio that don't make sense. It got away from the complexity of separates with a tuner, preamp and amp all in one box.

Receivers became too big as they went from 30W to 80W to 100W etc. Integrated units are the same. As power supplies increase in size, the integrated unit is no longer feasible. Separates help to keep things reasonably contained.

[wgscott]

Integrated vs separates in a pointless discussion.

 

Sorry.

 

I realize now I should have cleared this with you first.

[davidbeinct]

OT warning: I nearly killed myself riding a 650 Burgman down a steep grade in eastern Wyoming. With no standard transmission to hold me back, I burned up the brakes trying to scrub off speed of the descent.

 

Not to mention the chance you took that your friends might see you riding a scooter.

[gmgraves]

Integrated vs separates in a pointless discussion. It is all personal. Of you really like pure class A 100w amps chances are that you end up with separates. if you prefer class D 50w an integrated will do just fine.

 

I myself have an integrated amp. But still have a separate DAC, phono pre amp streamer etc. Also when is a integrated amp integrated? I have seen 3 box integrated amps (1 control box 2 power supplies).

 

If I had the money I'd buy separates.

 

 

My main amp is a Harman Kardon 990 Integrated. This amp is 150 WPC dual mono with separate power supplies (including transformers) for each channel. It also sports a decent MC/MM phono stage, a built-in dual-differential 24/192 DAC , and a DSP with software to EQ both the room and seamlessly integrate a pair of subs. It is a great sounding amp. Sure, it's big and heavy, but every review has raved about it. Stereophile gave it a class 'B' rating. Not bad for US$2.5K.

[livelistenlearn]

logically, separates are cooler. for real men who prefer custom steel steeds (customised with enve forks, di2s, b17s, etc).

that said, a devialet comes with a big fat knob. and look sexy minimalist on a wall, probably for awhile.

[tranz]

I prefer even separate boxes for the power supply. Sounds better to my ears

[PopPop]

Not to mention the chance you took that your friends might see you riding a scooter.

 

Yes, there is that, then!

[mordante]

My main amp is a Harman Kardon 990 Integrated. This amp is 150 WPC dual mono with separate power supplies (including transformers) for each channel. It also sports a decent MC/MM phono stage, a built-in dual-differential 24/192 DAC , and a DSP with software to EQ both the room and seamlessly integrate a pair of subs. It is a great sounding amp. Sure, it's big and heavy, but every review has raved about it. Stereophile gave it a class 'B' rating. Not bad for US$2.5K.

 

I'd never buy any amp/dac/streamer etc with DSP.

 

A pre-amp with DAC and phono would be nice. But I'm not sure if I'd want use transformers sitting next to a MC phono amp.

[AudioDoctor]

Ive been down the massively expensive separates road. I even tried not so massively expensive separates. Now for the sake of my wallet, my sanity, and my desire to simplify, I own an integrated, and have for a while now. I still have a separate DAC/Phono Amp/ and turntable, but could not be happier with the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Intergated I have now.

[sandyk]

Receivers became too big as they went from 30W to 80W to 100W etc. Integrated units are the same. As power supplies increase in size, the integrated unit is no longer feasible. Separates help to keep things reasonably contained.

 

Exactly.

As you increase the complexity of the power supplies in order to achieve superior performance, you need to use separate transformers for individual areas, and suitably dimensioned transformers need extra room and a minimum amount of separation between them.

Even with just a very high quality DAC, you often have a minimum of 2 transformers. One transformer may be used for the digital area and the other for the analogue area. Some DIY DACs use even more smaller transformers.

 

I prefer even separate boxes for the power supply. Sounds better to my ears

 

Likewise.

My Class A amplifier and Class A preamp have their transformers in a separate 2 unit rack case, with the Preamp being supplied 18-0-18 VAC from 2 separate 30VA transformers. The Power Amplifier is supplied by 2 separate regulated + and -20V feeds, as both the Preamp and

Power Amplifier are of dual mono type construction, although both channels are in the same metal rack case.

[esldude]

I'd never buy any amp/dac/streamer etc with DSP.

 

A pre-amp with DAC and phono would be nice. But I'm not sure if I'd want use transformers sitting next to a MC phono amp.

 

So DSP is bad mojo, but analog RIAA EQ for phono is ok?

[bluesman]

I still have a separate DAC/Phono Amp/ and turntable, but could not be happier with the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP Intergated I have now.

And I love my PrimaLuna Prologue! PL is a great example of the evolution of affordable high end audio. Quality of design and quality of conformance are both tops, and as a result their products deliver both excellent sound and excellent value. Emotiva is another example of this approach. They and many others take "less is more" seriously and save cost, weight, energy, waste etc.

 

I find it hard to make a case for multiple power supplies and redundant parts when simpler systems with fewer parts deliver sound equal in quality to that of most separates at or below their price. If I had a 20x60 foot listening room and an unlimited budget, I'd look at high end separates - but I'm not at all certain I'd adopt them given the current availability of so much great and simple stuff.