Tidal High Res (MQA) news...

[crenca]

Actually everything we actually know about MQA is the opposite: that the 16/44 stream in fact remains intact. That's how the function has been explained by the people involved.

 

 

Actually, that is not exactly what they are saying. For example, Meridian explains the process as altering the 16/44 portion (when they move the compressed 48k+ information into the 16/44 space) - it's just below the noise floor so is audibly undetectable and in addition there are no "digital artifact" or other negative effects of this "folding" process. The commentator in the above video is careful to say that these (i.e lack of negative effects on audible portions, etc.) are assertions, and are yet to be evaluated.

 

It does look promising however. It's not that I am being "lied to", I just want to point out that it is actually more complicated than a simple "MQA = 16/44". However, I do admit that I am a Tidal subscriber, AND that I am happy with my current 16/44 stream AND that I do not really want to be an MQA "first adopter". All that being said, it is not a very important thing in the grand scheme of things - I just wish it were not so...

[orgel]

Danny says that "MQA plays at CD quality if you don't have a decoder.". Ok, but I could link all sorts of stuff where people CLAIM all sorts of things, like for example that there is no SQ difference between 320 mp3 & 16/44, or 16/44 & 24/96. Now, many of these people sincerely believe such things, and of course others don't.

 

So, when Danny says "MQA plays at CD quality if you don't have a decoder.", what exactly is the basis for such a claim? Is it based on his personal listening (and thus preference)? Is it a based on knowledge of the inner workings of MQA (essentially, the math) and thus an understanding that it is a bit for bit delivery of an 16/44 file?

 

I see lot's of folks repeating this claim, but what does it rest on? As far as I can tell, right now it simply is a pre-release claim of an untested product - nothing more, and nothing less. In any case, I hope it is true as a Tidal customer who has no plans to be an MQA "first adopter"...

 

Everyone certainly has a right to pick his or her own trusted authorities, but the senior guys at Roon — notably Danny Dulai and Brian Luczkiewicz — probably know as much about MQA as anyone outside the MQA team at Meridian, since they were both in software engineering at Meridian while MQA was being developed. They also probably know as much about the inner workings of Tidal as anyone (maybe even inside Tidal ), since they've done more work with Tidal's API's than anyone else I can think of. Having followed what these two have had to say on the Roon forum since Roon went live, I think they're also straight shooters, so I personally feel comfortable trusting what they have to say about stuff in which they are or were pretty directly involved and which has a direct effect on Roon Labs.

 

Feel free to saddle up and head for the hills, though. I'm with you when it comes to having some healthy skepticism about the prospects for MQA.

 

--David

[audio.bill]

In this post on Audio Asylum by Michael Lavorgna (Editor of AudioStream.com) it clearly states: "... if you are a Tidal user but not interested in moving to MQA, all Tidal/MQA files will be delivered in CD-quality to your existing hardware (even if they are hi-res)." Hopefully this can put a rest to any concerns about this issue, but I'm sure there are some that will find reason to question this statement and will have to wait to be convinced.

[crenca]

In this post on Audio Asylum by Michael Lavorgna (Editor of AudioStream.com) it clearly states: "... if you are a Tidal user but not interested in moving to MQA, all Tidal/MQA files will be delivered in CD-quality to your existing hardware (even if they are hi-res)." Hopefully this can put a rest to any concerns about this issue, but I'm sure there are some that will find reason to question this statement and will have to wait to be convinced.

 

He is just passing on the same pre-release product claim as everyone else. So what he REALLY is saying is "all Tidal/MQA files will be delivered in CD-quality to your existing hardware because Meridian has told me so and I believe them".

 

I have to admit, for an overtly skeptical group like "audiophiles" there sure seems to be a willingness to pass on pre-release product claims as if they are gospel (when it comes to MQA).

 

That is why I like the reviewer in the link I posted above. He states quite clearly the real limitations of the MQA demonstration he attended. One of these limitations he explicitly points to is that it did NOT demonstrate an MQA encoded file (of any resolution) being played through a non-MQA DAC/playback chain. To my knowledge (if someone knows differently please speak up!) such a demonstration has to date has not happened, yet alone an independent evaluation under known conditions.

[audio.bill]

Man, you're a real hard sell. Guess we'll just have to wait and see, only time will tell for certain.

[bmoura]

The real question here is does a music file that has been through the MQA pre-distortion and lossy encoding sound as good as a non-MQA processed music file?

 

Since no demonstrations have been held playing MQA files without MQA software and DAC decoding, it's too early to know the answer.

[mansr]

The real question here is does a music file that has been through the MQA pre-distortion and lossy encoding sound as good as a non-MQA processed music file?

 

Since no demonstrations have been held playing MQA files without MQA software and DAC decoding, it's too early to know the answer.

 

Based on what's been written in the audio press and on some Meridian patents, it appears that the high 16 bits of an MQA file are simply the result of lowpass filtering the original as if for export to a CD. The low 6-8 bits (no definite number is given) contain the high frequencies encoded so as to appear as "random" noise to a non-MQA-aware DAC. The exact algorithm used for this encoding is not public.

[DanSmedra]

As one audio geek stated, the technology is indeed "cleaver." I agree. However, I suspect the delay and challenge in its commercialization is figuring out how to make it a universal standard without giving it away with no monetary compensation. Hardware implementation (licensed firmware) is a possible option, and easiest, but anything can be reverse engineered and any software decoder would simply be copied ad infinitum, thus undermining hardware sales. So how does Meridian gain revenue from MQA commensurate with its genius? This might be the conundrum.

[raelamb]

Let's not all forget since the great unwashed masses don't care about quality, word on the street is Tidal is for sale and this all could become moot soon. Jay Z has no idea his service offers better quality than all the others. He thinks his strength is that his service can bundle Rhianna tickets with streams.

[DanSmedra]

Let's not all forget since the great unwashed masses don't care about quality, word on the street is Tidal is for sale and this all could become moot soon. Jay Z has no idea his service offers better quality than all the others. He thinks his strength is that his service can bundle Rhianna tickets with streams.

 

My understanding is that Jay Z syndicated ownership to a group of music artists and those artists are fully aware of TIDAL's quality difference (per Pål Bråtelund).

Watch this video.

 

PS. Audiophiles have been somewhat disappointed in how TIDAL is currently used as a heavy promotional tool for certain genre of music(?). However, I am continually amazed at the depth and extent of the catalog. Seldom do my searches come up empty.

 

The "masses" do care about quality, but not at the expense of convenience. Simple solutions are required for simple minds.

[raelamb]

My understanding is that Jay Z syndicated ownership to a group of music artists and those artists are fully aware of TIDAL's quality difference.

 

Trust me it was just a photo op for them.

[mansr]

As one audio geek stated, the technology is indeed "cleaver." I agree. However, I suspect the delay and challenge in its commercialization is figuring out how to make it a universal standard without giving it away with no monetary compensation. Hardware implementation (licensed firmware) is a possible option, and easiest, but anything can be reverse engineered and any software decoder would simply be copied ad infinitum, thus undermining hardware sales. So how does Meridian gain revenue from MQA commensurate with its genius? This might be the conundrum.

 

A logo licensing programme seems like a reasonable option. Works for Dolby.

[DanSmedra]

How does that work when there's no record/CD jacket, as with streaming?

[bmoura]

So how does Meridian gain revenue from MQA commensurate with its genius?

 

MQA is a licensed technology, just as Meridian's earlier MLP encoding was. There will be a charge for including MQA encoding in DACs, Analog to Digital Converters (ADCs) and other audio products. Very similar to the licensing by Dolby, DTS and others in the audio industry.

[bobbmd]

has anyone asked mike moffat and jason stoddard if they intend to incorporate MQA into upgrades for bifrost or gungnir or into the rggy as their mother boards are supposedly all upgradable(for a price of course)- i have the newest upgrade of gungnir before that multibit upgrade ie 785$ in 2012/13

and how much better can MQA be? i just added HQPlayer and think its sound is superior to ROON alone and TIDAL with Amarra or TIDAL with Amarra sQ+

bobbmd

[JoeWhip]

I asked Schiit about this about 6 months ago and was advised they had no plans to do so. I am very happy with my Gumby.

[barrows]

In this post on Audio Asylum by Michael Lavorgna (Editor of AudioStream.com) it clearly states: "... if you are a Tidal user but not interested in moving to MQA, all Tidal/MQA files will be delivered in CD-quality to your existing hardware (even if they are hi-res)." Hopefully this can put a rest to any concerns about this issue, but I'm sure there are some that will find reason to question this statement and will have to wait to be convinced.

 

Why would this put an end to the issue! If I am streaming hi res content, i want to get actual hi res content, not a downconverted to 16/44.1 stream. This is ridiculous. MQA, as far as audiophiles are concerned is a solution to a problem which does not exist.

Now, for average consumer audio, where almost all people already listen to lossy MP3, if MQA can manage to entirely replace MP3, that could be great.

Details on MQA still seem very sketchy, as far as I can tell MQA is another lossy compression scheme, where "they" "claim" it is better because the lossy, psychoacoustic compression scheme is "better" than MP3, OK, perhaps, but I would rather have no compression or entirely lossless compression which produces identical check sums.

If MQA really requires new AD and DA hardware, it is very unlikely it will be an audiophile solution.

 

Of course, I prefer not subscription solutions anyway, as the are limited in content and I do not want music industry folks deciding what music I can listen to.

[barrows]

I did some additional sleuthing. As far as I can tell the best technical explanation of MQA is on the Stereophile Magazine website. There are two aspects to what is commonly termed MQA: 1. is the compression, which is basically a way of folding a 24/192 file into a container < the size a 24/96 file takes, without loss (if it is done correctly). This should result in the same sound quality as the original 24/192 file. 2. Is the specialized digital filters used to encode and decode the signal in the AD and DA converters, apparently these filters would be designed by Meridian for each converter, specific to the DS modulators of each converter, the idea being to achieve better response in the time domain. Whether or not #2 would make for an improvement in SQ would be subjective, and converter dependent, and as far as I can tell, has to be applied a the original conversion from analog to digital (otherwise filter artifacts from the AD process would still be present).

Also, because #1 folds the extra information into the lower bits (theoretically below the noise floor) it questionable if this compression would work with digital volume control, anyone have the answer to this? Perhaps the DAC could decompress the data stream convert to 32 bits (or 48, etc) and then apply the VC.

In any case, it appears that new hardware on both the AD and DA side are going to be needed to take any advantage of the approach.

[Pepsican]

So, with 4g and fiber networks, and a lot of hi-res formats already entrenched, what problem will MQA solve (supposedly)?

[ElviaCaprice]

 

As for decoded MQA music, I have heard a Meridian demo of that on some very high end Meridian gear. To my ears, the un-MQA processed FLAC and DSD editions of those tracks are superior to MQA processed and decoded versions.

 

But for streaming services, MQA's reduction in file size may be quite handy. Time will tell.

 

Handy at what, creating more noise in ones music chain with software processing/decoding of MQA???

[crenca]

PS. Audiophiles have been somewhat disappointed in how TIDAL is currently used as a heavy promotional tool for certain genre of music(?). However, I am continually amazed at the depth and extent of the catalog. Seldom do my searches come up empty.

 

I too have been somewhat perplexed at the complaints by "audiophiles" who tend to listen to the more niche genre's (Jazz, Classical, etc.). Sure the "home page" is what it is, but who spends more than a second there? I am very happy when I can find something from some obscure Polish piano trio, in CD quality no less. It is a truly remarkable thing and I hope it lasts.

 

On the other hand, I have noticed a few posters here who complain of it's lack of "social" functionality, etc....so for the vast "unwashed masses" it might not meet there expectations (which seem to be about alot of things other than music)...

[monteverdi]

I am not quite sure what would be the point of MQA if it just delivers 16/44 everyone who does not own MQA hardware(at a streaming rate similar to 16/44). A micro niche of the niche market! Would I change my DAC for MQA? Of course not but if some software (Roon etc.) could make a server feeding all the benefits of MQA to my DAC I would be quite interested. So does full MQA work only on the DAC level?

[barrows]

I am not quite sure what would be the point of MQA if it just delivers 16/44 everyone who does not own MQA hardware(at a streaming rate similar to 16/44). A micro niche of the niche market! Would I change my DAC for MQA? Of course not but if some software (Roon etc.) could make a server feeding all the benefits of MQA to my DAC I would be quite interested. So does full MQA work only on the DAC level?

 

See my post below. As best as I can follow so far, the compression aspect could be available on a player software level, theoretically, but any improved sound quality would require a a MQA enabled DAC, as this involves the oversampling process at the DAC level.

[mansr]

See my post below. As best as I can follow so far, the compression aspect could be available on a player software level, theoretically, but any improved sound quality would require a a MQA enabled DAC, as this involves the oversampling process at the DAC level.

 

The MQA process is software no matter where it runs. A filter tailored for a particular DAC could easily run on a separate computer. That said, it's not likely to happen since the internals of the DACs are generally not known.

[barrows]

The MQA process is software no matter where it runs. A filter tailored for a particular DAC could easily run on a separate computer. That said, it's not likely to happen since the internals of the DACs are generally not known.

 

Yeah, of course, but this is not standard operating procedure for most DACs or Audiophiles, Roon for example, is not an oversampling software package, and one will really have to send at least 352.8/384 kHZ to the DAC to get a high enough oversampling. And for MQA to work as advertised the filter has to be implemented specifically to suit each DAC modulator design, it is hard for me to believe that the music player software designers are going to implement specific filters for every dAC available...

 

It seems a lot more likely that MQA will be implemented specifically in the hardware (or firmware if one prefers) of the DAC itself.