Bugs, Regens, Words...Hilarity!

[dallasjustice]

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

[Jud]

It looks like jitter is worse with the Regen interposed.

 

Alex,

It's odd you want to criticize Amir's measurements yet Swenson still hasn't posted any measurements of his own in the analog domain. If he has an AP, he can repeat the jtest and see for himself how the Regen makes jitter a little worse.

 

Btw, I think Amir measured using a Meridian Explorer.

 

Very interesting stuff so far. Hopefully there will be more tests and data to come, from Alex and John, other parties, perhaps more from Amir....

 

I do not think it is "unfair" of Amir to use the supplied SMPS and short cable. Let's see what further testing brings with regard to, e.g., use of the solid adapter and perhaps various different power supplies, and whether the test data lines up with listening impressions favoring the solid adapter and LPSs.

 

I also think jitter is a pertinent thing to try to measure, though my impression is that it isn't the easiest thing to get reliable measurements of. What we have at the moment are Amir's data; let's see whether we get any more data that either reinforce what Amir has found so far or indicate something different.

[Jud]

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

 

Yeah, I do agree that there appears to be a lot of excuse-making. From my own point of view it is completely possible that what I think I hear is placebo effect. To claim otherwise would be to say my ears are somehow infallible, and I don't believe that. It could be that I'm making everything up; that I *like* a touch more jitter (euphonic distortion); or that tests closer to the setup I'm using (solid adapter, cheap LPS) may show something a little different. We'll see - let the data fall where they may!

[mourip]

Bought the Regen Amber, installed it and loving it. I don't give a frig about how it measures or what any naysayers espouse. To my ears it sounds great.

 

+1

 

I have seen this same basic conversation played out in so many threads and other sites. We have a subjective hobby. Measuring can only take you so far...

 

If one does not find a piece of equipment enjoyable just sell it. No need to prove your theories about why you did not enjoy it to the rest of us. Note the key word "enjoy" here.

 

Can we move on now?

[r_w]

The mistakes I keep making with my system sound amazing... I'm loving being this stupid.

 

 

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

[mourip]

The mistakes I keep making with my system sound amazing... I'm loving being this stupid.

 

If ignorance is bliss then I am happy also. I am so glad that I do not own an oscilloscope only to find out that I am should not be enjoying my system so much.

 

To roughly quote another ancient post:

 

"If it sounds good but does not measure well perhaps you are measuring the wrong thing."

 

This last year has really been Spring for digital audiophiles.

[r_w]

This last year has really been Spring for digital audiophiles.

 

Agree, I've had some great results.

 

(Have you done optical LAN isolation yet? - that was another cheap and effective improvement for me)

[Jud]

The mistakes I keep making with my system sound amazing... I'm loving being this stupid.

 

Two things are interesting to me:

 

- I agree with you regarding my subjective impression of my system's sound - never heard it better, so whatever the cause, I'm happy.

 

- If this is placebo, it's an interesting variety. I have very distinct preferences - One Regen good, two Regens better; one Jitterbug good, two Jitterbugs bad; short cord bad, solid adapter better; SMPS OK, cheap LPS better. So in the case of the Regen more is better, in the case of the Jitterbug, not. If none of this is real, it's interesting that I wouldn't just think more is better, whether it's Regen or Jitterbug. Or that I'd have distinct preferences between a short cord and a solid adapter.

 

That said, I'm still interested in as much good test data as I can get about the Regen or any other part of my system, so I'm looking forward to more.

[sbgk]

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

 

I'm not too familiar with the What's best forum, but agree the cognitive dissonance is palpable, they're like little schoolboys who think they have found something funny in what the adults are doing.

 

Will Amir admit his mistakes ? Doubt it.

 

Why don't you ask him on the What's Best forum ?

[4est]

Do you or anyone know what is in the Jitterbug? From the reports, it would seem as if it is some termination resistors- possibly an LCR to absorb reflections or something. I'd love to see a photo of the innards...

Two things are interesting to me:

 

- I agree with you regarding my subjective impression of my system's sound - never heard it better, so whatever the cause, I'm happy.

 

- If this is placebo, it's an interesting variety. I have very distinct preferences - One Regen good, two Regens better; one Jitterbug good, two Jitterbugs bad; short cord bad, solid adapter better; SMPS OK, cheap LPS better. So in the case of the Regen more is better, in the case of the Jitterbug, not. If none of this is real, it's interesting that I wouldn't just think more is better, whether it's Regen or Jitterbug. Or that I'd have distinct preferences between a short cord and a solid adapter.

 

That said, I'm still interested in as much good test data as I can get about the Regen or any other part of my system, so I'm looking forward to more.

[wisnon]

All this fuss about inexpensive devices?

 

If the value police want to gain real kudos, go after the expensive stuff the $10K ethernet cables that have even less data published.

 

I thought science was about observing impact in nature and then running experiments to find out what the cause is and why we observe it. With this experimental knowledge/confirmation, we can then reproduce and indeed enhance the impact.

 

Running to standard measurements without understanding WHY we have these effects(impact) is not knowledge enhancing and is possibly a dead end. It may just be that we are measuring the WRONG things.

[firedog]

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

 

Of course it's possible. But as far as I can test my listening, it doesn't seem to me that it is.

 

But my question to you is this: Amir did some measurements. So did John Westlake. There is already disagreement over which measurements are the right measurements to make. You've decided Amir's measurements prove the case.

 

It isn't clear to me that that's the end of the story.

 

The Uptone guys say they are going to publish measurements. Let's see what they publish.

 

Then everyone can evaluate and decide for themselves.

[wisnon]

Of course it's possible. But as far as I can test my listening, it doesn't seem to me that it is.

 

But my question to you is this: Amir did some measurements. So did John Westlake. There is already disagreement over which measurements are the right measurements to make. You've decided Amir's measurements prove the case.

 

It isn't clear to me that that's the end of the story.

 

The Uptone guys say they are going to publish measurements. Let's see what they publish.

 

Then everyone can evaluate and decide for themselves.

 

Generally agree here.

 

However, one caveat. if sooo many people claim to hear an improvement and given that we have a credible working hypothesis (packet noise reduction by optimized PDN) then it behooves the curious techical minds to do deep investigation and experimentation to find out why. This is clearly fertile ground for further research by unbiased people with no skin in the game.

[devs]

This Amir's dog chewed the Jitterbug tested to pieces, I guess it also pissed over the Regen. (Fortunately it was already paid for to support future developments.)

 

In any case, it all stinks and calling it a 'science thread' is indeed hilarious considering the first post in it.

[dallasjustice]

This is clearly fertile ground for further research by unbiased people with no skin in the game.

 

Exactly. Amir is an outstanding engineer with real test gear. He isn't manufacturing or selling any such products. JA's jitterbug measurements in stereophile are consistent as well with Amir's and he isn't selling anything either.

 

I'm sure those selling these products have every incentive to retest using their gear to prove that Amir and Stereophile were both wrong. So far, nothing.

[firedog]

Exactly. Amir is an outstanding engineer with real test gear. He isn't manufacturing or selling any such products. JA's jitterbug measurements in stereophile are consistent as well with Amir's and he isn't selling anything either.

 

I'm sure those selling these products have every incentive to retest using their gear to prove that Amir and Stereophile were both wrong. So far, nothing.

 

So far we have 2 very different sets of measurements of the Regen. Amir's - partially positive - less electrical noise via the Regen. But also a negative one - more jitter. We have John Westlake's measurements - positive. And he thinks his measurements are significant (Amir disagrees). In spite of not finding measurements to back up what he heard, John Atkinson still heartily recommended the Jitterbug, because he's sure of the improvement he heard in different setups.

 

It's interesting to me that whenever we have these arguments about the effect of various types of noise on digital to analog systems, the objectivist camp always says that the meaningful measurement is at the "analog output" of the DAC. But neither of Amir's sets for the Regen is that. Amir's jitter measurement is closer to that ideal, but isn't it.

 

Anecdotal listening evidence is overwhelmingly (not entirely) positive with the Regen, less so with the Jitterbug.

 

And do we know that Amir's jitter measurements are sonically significant? Do we know if they are repeatable on other setups? Not yet. That's why I'd like to see some other measurements, especially with the Regen.

[dallasjustice]

To my knowledge, Westlake did not measure the analog output of any dac using the Regen or other usb device.

 

And yes, Amir did measure the analog outputs of a $150 meridian explorer using both devices. Btw, there's one eye pattern measurement which I failed to mention. Paul Miller did the eye pattern for HiFi news on the jitterbug. That one showed that the jitterbug actually reduced the rise time a little.

 

"If you do the accusing, you gotta do the proving." That's what they say in my world. To date, we have tons of anecdotal claims made but no evidence supporting any of them. Anecdotal evidence is not proof in the rational universe.

 

When I talk about placebo effect, I do not mean to deride anyone. All humans are subject to the same errors. There's no way to opt out of human nature.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mindware-Thinking-Richard-E-Nisbett/dp/0374112673

 

The above book should be required reading for anyone. The author is a well respected professor of psychology at the University of Michigan. Nisbett has been doing studies related to these phenomena his whole career. He covers alot of topics in this book. He does a great job demonstrating the various ways all humans are subject to subconscious influence. We all make the same mistakes. Nobody is special here.

 

Michael.

 

 

So far we have 2 very different sets of measurements of the Regen. Amir's - partially positive - less electrical noise via the Regen. But also a negative one - more jitter. We have John Westlake's measurements - positive. And he thinks his measurements are significant (Amir disagrees). In spite of not finding measurements to back up what he heard, John Atkinson still heartily recommended the Jitterbug, because he's sure of the improvement he heard in different setups.

 

It's interesting to me that whenever we have these arguments about the effect of various types of noise on digital to analog systems, the objectivist camp always says that the meaningful measurement is at the "analog output" of the DAC. But neither of Amir's sets for the Regen is that. Amir's jitter measurement is closer to that ideal, but isn't it.

 

Anecdotal listening evidence is overwhelmingly (not entirely) positive with the Regen, less so with the Jitterbug.

 

And do we know that Amir's jitter measurements are sonically significant? Do we know if they are repeatable on other setups? Not yet. That's why I'd like to see some other measurements, especially with the Regen.

[4est]

This goes both ways, and your statement shows a clear bias: "The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more? ".

 

To my knowledge, Westlake did not measure the analog output of any dac using the Regen or other usb device.

 

And yes, Amir did measure the analog outputs of a $150 meridian explorer using both devices. Btw, there's one eye pattern measurement which I failed to mention. Paul Miller did the eye pattern for HiFi news on the jitterbug. That one showed that the jitterbug actually reduced the rise time a little.

 

"If you do the accusing, you gotta do the proving." That's what they say in my world. To date, we have tons of anecdotal claims made but no evidence supporting any of them. Anecdotal evidence is not proof in the rational universe.

 

When I talk about placebo effect, I do not mean to deride anyone. All humans are subject to the same errors. There's no way to opt out of human nature.

 

Mindware: Tools for Smart Thinking: Richard E. Nisbett: 9780374112677: Amazon.com: Books

 

The above book should be required reading for anyone. The author is a well respected professor of psychology at the University of Michigan. Nisbett has been doing studies related to these phenomena his whole career. He covers alot of topics in this book. He does a great job demonstrating the various ways all humans are subject to subconscious influence. We all make the same mistakes. Nobody is special here.

 

Michael.

[Daudio]

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

 

No. The listener sample set is just too large and consistent.

 

A couple of anecdotal electronic experiments do very little to address that, except perhaps for those with an extreme Calvinist approach to audio. But then my audio system is designed to be used with my ears, not an oscilloscope

[ted_b]

 

"If you do the accusing, you gotta do the proving." That's what they say in my world. To date, we have tons of anecdotal claims made but no evidence supporting any of them. Anecdotal evidence is not proof in the rational universe.

 

 

Michael, let me remind you that this is not a court of law, but a simple music forum. Here, subjectivity in the form of "how it sounds to our ears" is evidence that many folks find more than anecdotal, especially if described with some sort of consistency. Objectivity is important too (I find this computer audio hobby filled with new objective discoveries) but "musicality" cannot be really completely measured IMHO. I realize this flies in the face of "bits is bits" or any objective scrutiny, but it should not surprise you, nor allow for unnecessary derision ("worthless USB hubs" is not derision, but not exactly conciliatory either) especially when one has not used them (Regen for example) personally. I respect your findings, your very high end system, and even often your taste in music...but there are indeed tastes in this hobby!! And those tastes cannot come close to withstanding a court of law, but they make for some nice late night listening. And I guess i am more willing to let tastes/emotion (and maybe placebo) rule the decision process when the $100-175 investment tugs quite gently on our buyers remorse, and the manufacturer provides a reasonable level of technical explanation. It's certainly not $400k speaker or amplifier expectation bias...that is a strong tugger and an even stronger bias!! Seldom do we admit to mistakes in those price brackets.

 

Julian Hirsch is not my hero, by the way.

[BobSherman]

The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Does anyone ever admit they made a mistake? Is it not even remotely possible that your claims about these worthless USB hubs are placebo effect, nothing more?

 

 

Because they are not placebos.

 

The sad part is that individuals with small minds will never fully be able to understand that measurements cannot always detect what we hear.

[r_w]

I don't get this thread, it has now turned towards "everyone who prefers their system with a REGEN or AQJB in it has, and continues to imagine(d) the improvement they've (not) heard".

 

Why can't everyone's positive experiences be respected? And if there are people for whom their system and/or ears prefers the 'without experience' that's fine too.

 

It would appear that the vast majority prefer the 'with' experience... if the correct measurement to illustrate why this is can be found, it could very quickly set engineers on the express pathway for near perfect digital audio - and we all win

 

At the moment, the absolute reverse is being done - a measurement that defies why the vast majority should prefer it is being used to call the positive end users mistake making fools.

 

This isn't the type of science that progresses mankind, it merely stifles us.

 

... and it smacks of the usual "I've got a PhD so I'm right" academic delusions of grandeur.

 

Ears, ears, ears... that's what music was made to be enjoyed (emotionally measured) by, it doesn't get any simpler.

[wwaldmanfan]

One guy posts a flawed "scientific" critique on the internet where anyone can say anything, and folks are up in arms over it.

 

As Glenn Frey said, "Fans vote with their wallets." Of the hundreds and hundreds of REGENs sold, I have seen ONE used one for resale here, none on Audiogon, and none on eBay, even the older, green version. That tells me something.

[Jud]

One guy posts a flawed "scientific" critique on the internet where anyone can say anything, and folks are up in arms over it.

 

As Glenn Frey said, "Fans vote with their wallets." Of the hundreds and hundreds of REGENs sold, I have seen ONE used one for resale here, none on Audiogon, and none on eBay, even the older, green version. That tells me something.

 

I've seen a handful of folks mention they may want to resell. But that's certainly a tiny fraction of the total sold.

[Jud]

I don't get this thread, it has now turned towards "everyone who prefers their system with a REGEN or AQJB in it has, and continues to imagine(d) the improvement they've (not) heard".

 

Why can't everyone's positive experiences be respected? And if there are people for whom their system and/or ears prefers the 'without experience' that's fine too.

 

It would appear that the vast majority prefer the 'with' experience... if the correct measurement to illustrate why this is can be found, it could very quickly set engineers on the express pathway for near perfect digital audio - and we all win

 

At the moment, the absolute reverse is being done - a measurement that defies why the vast majority should prefer it is being used to call the positive end users mistake making fools.

 

This isn't the type of science that progresses mankind, it merely stifles us.

 

... and it smacks of the usual "I've got a PhD so I'm right" academic delusions of grandeur.

 

Ears, ears, ears... that's what music was made to be enjoyed (emotionally measured) by, it doesn't get any simpler.

 

Meh, I don't see the need to be critical of others no matter what your personal thinking on the matter of the Regen. Anyone who thinks it is worthless placebo is welcome to that position as far as I am concerned, as well as anyone who thinks just the opposite. For my own part, I am both enjoying listening to my system with two Regens in it, and quite curious and interested to see what data we can find. I'm not looking to the data for any personal validation, but from scientific interest in the advancement of audio engineering (and thus ultimately our listening enjoyment).