ECdesigns

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, Huubster said:

 I knew that :)

 

But indeed, good point.

 

Though I have to come back to my former statements of my Innuos still sounding much better then my Bluesound Node 2i.. After some more A-B testing I have to say that the differences are subtle. My mind made the differences bigger then they really are. So I'm about to pull the trigger on selling my Innuos. 

 

How about that, never thought it would come so far..

Good to hear the Node 2 is saveable, what source material are you using, files, streaming? 

[Huubster]

5 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Good to hear the Node 2 is saveable, what source material are you using, files, streaming? 

 

Both, streaming using Spotify, but also playing local WAV files. The Innuos has an internal HDD, with the Bluesound I use a 256GB USB flashdisk.

 

Forgot to mention it, but please be aware that I use the Node 2i with an external LPS, an Allo Shanti in my case (which feeds both the Node and the PD). This can be done by replacing the the SMPS board in the Node with a custom built solution for less then € 100.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

6 hours ago, yogibear said:

Never used UPL so no experience here. First it was U192ETL with DA96ETF and now its Power DAC R with UT96. However I would love to someday couple PD with U192ETL.

 

The U192ETL / DA96ETF is now with a friend who has a respectable TT and Vinyl collection. His observation is consistent with mine on the combo. Very very dark..... He loves the DAC so much that he takes very long time gaps to go back to his Vinyl setup. He has had many popular branded DACs in his stable. (Under $10K) He loves the DA96ETF and says all other DACs should "go back to school". (No arguments here, just sharing his views)

 

I have dedicated earth in my house, in fact two, each 15 feet deep, running a solid thick copper strip running all to the power distribution box.

 

I have had many DACs, nothing too special, first being Objective DAC and last two were DIY R2R based on monolith AD1862 and AD1856. The notion of rolling opamps made be uncomfortable. I sold them all to fund PD purchase. I have no regrets..... Only wish is to try Electrotos input over Toslink. 

 

One aspect I loved with DA96ETF / U192ETL with bundle purchase was, each cable was made by ECD. I wish the USB with PD was also made by ECD too... (Expecting Toslink to be made by them is unnecessary)  

 

In a recent blind test, RCA cables made by ECD were compared with 10X expensive branded RCA (well regarded) and there was no noticeable diffrence heard by any of the listeners, with DA96ETF / U192ETL combo. (Am no fan of "superb sounding cables",  just sharing one observation.)

 

You may not take my point of view seriously 🙂 but I did a lot of back and forth between the UT96 and the U192 and could not hear a difference. 

 

Your observation of a darker background on the DA96 are so far unique. I don't believe others have found this (I have not, but will check again). 

 

Interesting that you compared the ECD analog cables. I've been meaning to do so, but have not gotten around to it. 

 

I've been using my Coincident analog cables simply because I need the extra length, and the ECD interlinks are quite stiff. Also, the ECD cable's RCA jacks are super tight on the PowerDAC's terminals, so it's a bit of a struggle every time I take them off, which is quite often as I alternate between speakers and headphones. Will get back to some tests at some point.

 

 

[yogibear]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:38 PM, hopkins said:

 

You may not take my point of view seriously 🙂 but I did a lot of back and forth between the UT96 and the U192 and could not hear a difference. 

 

Your observation of a darker background on the DA96 are so far unique. I don't believe others have found this (I have not, but will check again). 

 

Interesting that you compared the ECD analog cables. I've been meaning to do so, but have not gotten around to it. 

 

I've been using my Coincident analog cables simply because I need the extra length, and the ECD interlinks are quite stiff. Also, the ECD cable's RCA jacks are super tight on the PowerDAC's terminals, so it's a bit of a struggle every time I take them off, which is quite often as I alternate between speakers and headphones. Will get back to some tests at some point.

 

 

 

I trust you on no difference between UT96 and the U192. But I guess Electrotos is one fantastic piece of component, I should have in my collection as an interface. 

 

ECD RCA cable are for me like, "look no more at options for line level cables" and nor even try DIY. They are little stiff coz of the shielding but I use short cables so are fine with me. 

 

ECD innovations / components are keeper for life for me, and I hope to indulge more in them in future. Power DAC R is aging like a fine wine...... Details extraction and HF extension is exemplary. And of course its very musical. 

 

 

[Bram1103]

Following this discussion for a while. I am looking for a DAC that comes close or surpassing analogue sources. 

 

I have now the DDDAC 1794 DAC of Doede Douma but for me this is not the way to go. Takes out the soul and emotion of the music especially with classical music.

 

Is the EDC Power DAC-R the DAC that I am looking for?

 

I know it is a matter of taste but still, looking for direction of people that have heard or own this DAC.

[Rexp]

14 hours ago, Bram1103 said:

Following this discussion for a while. I am looking for a DAC that comes close or surpassing analogue sources. 

 

I have now the DDDAC 1794 DAC of Doede Douma but for me this is not the way to go. Takes out the soul and emotion of the music especially with classical music.

 

Is the EDC Power DAC-R the DAC that I am looking for?

 

I know it is a matter of taste but still, looking for direction of people that have heard or own this DAC.

Ah the $64,000 question, what do you say @hopkins? 

[murphythecat87]

On 12/30/2015 at 10:50 AM, mordante said:

 

Nice review. I wonder if EC design will be successful. The market seems to flooded with good DACs these days. With no USB input I'm not sure how they will manage to sell any DAC.

im not worried. John brown have been selling to dedicated loyal audiophile that recgnize is immense effort to bring the best possible SQ for the money. Ive been buying his stuff since 2014 and since then he only seem to get bigger and bigger (relatively of course).

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 hours ago, Rexp said:

Ah the $64,000 question, what do you say @hopkins? 

 

I'll take the bait and answer 🙂

I don't like to qualify the sound of the powerDAC as "analog". A DAC should accurately reproduce the recording, and the term "analog sound" is not something everyone agrees implies accuracy.

 

That may not answer @Bram1103 's question. 

 

[yogibear]

18 hours ago, Bram1103 said:

Following this discussion for a while. I am looking for a DAC that comes close or surpassing analogue sources. 

 

I have now the DDDAC 1794 DAC of Doede Douma but for me this is not the way to go. Takes out the soul and emotion of the music especially with classical music.

 

Is the EDC Power DAC-R the DAC that I am looking for?

 

I know it is a matter of taste but still, looking for direction of people that have heard or own this DAC.

This might give you a clue: 

“ The U192ETL / DA96ETF is now with a friend who has a respectable TT and Vinyl collection. His observation is consistent with mine on the combo. Very very dark..... He loves the DAC so much that he takes very long time gaps to go back to his Vinyl setup. He has had many popular branded DACs in his stable. (Under $10K) He loves the DA96ETF and says all other DACs should "go back to school". (No arguments here, just sharing his views) “

 

Power DAC R is a step up over DA96ETF. I would say, both DAC from ECD are very musical and emotionally engaging….

[Ben75]

20 hours ago, Bram1103 said:

Following this discussion for a while. I am looking for a DAC that comes close or surpassing analogue sources. 

 

I have now the DDDAC 1794 DAC of Doede Douma but for me this is not the way to go. Takes out the soul and emotion of the music especially with classical music.

 

Is the EDC Power DAC-R the DAC that I am looking for?

 

I know it is a matter of taste but still, looking for direction of people that have heard or own this DAC.

Hello Bram1103,

 

Since you are living in Netherlands you may try the PowerDAC-R (especially if you have an excellent audio chain - amp, RCA and Speakers interlinks, speakers, room).

But be aware that the PowerDAC-S should be launched soon (before the end of the year) and that may be a really great step up in comparison to the « more traditional » PD-R + amplifier setup. Perhaps should you wait the PD-S launch to orientate yourself directly on that?

Best,

Benoit

[bodiebill]

I doubt that DAC's at the level of the PD can be linearly ordered in terms of quality. They each have their own character, which may or not suit the listener and may or not be a match to the remainder of the audio chain.

My experience with the PD is limited as I am convicted to my own ears (which as I come to think of it again need syringing -- one of the best audiophile tweaks) and only can judge it in synergy with my specific audio set.

The PD sounds wonderfully organic, saturated and warmish. Call it musical, whatever that means. If one has a faulty (noisy, jittery) source I can wholeheartedly recommend it. It mitigates these problems even though I am not yet sure how much of this 'source independence' is noise- or jitter reduction and how much a type of veil -- call it the cloak of love. However, with a really pure source (not easily achieved with network) the PD, in my experience, does not dive as deep into the recording as some other DAC's. And then we are back to matters of taste, as this deep diving pleases some more than others. I agree with those that say that the ultimate criterion is the conveyance of emotion, but as different as people are the things that trigger their emotions. Audiophilia, in spite of occasional scientific pretentiousness, is probably no exception.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Our experiences really diverge! It is a little frustrating not being able to understand why we hear things so differently (I am not talking about "preferences" here, but simply our experience of source immunity and transparency). It would be great to be able to all listen to the same systems, but that's not going to happen. 

 

It seems that some people (especially those who have not heard ECD products) may be reassured by your experience, judging from the reaction to your posts (not this last one specifically)... 

 

One would think that people who have not heard the powerDAC would be curious/eager to try it and see, but it seems that some are more interested in being comforted in the idea that a 25.000€ PC (for example) is actually going to solve everything. 

 

Indeed, ECD's solutions are going in a completely opposite direction than "mainstream" audiophile solutions. 

 

With time, further comparisons, trials, we can see if our opinions (including my own) change at all or what new customers may experience.  It would be nice to get more customer feedbacks, but not everyone cares to contribute to an audio forum (understandable).  I understand that they have had quite a few sales (more than we can infer from the limited participation to this thread), and so far customers are very satisfied (no returns). 

 

 

 

 

 

[Huubster]

13 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Our experiences really diverge!

You could say that indeed. Even my own experiences do..

 

I have to admit that I was hesitant about posting what I'm about to post.. You all might start thinking I'm bipolar or something.  But after listening to the Bluesound Node exclusively for over a week now I started to become bored.. A bit disappointed even. It sounded good, but I was losing interest in listening.

 

Maybe I was just tired / exhausted of all the comparing, or my mind really wanted to not hear any difference between sources, as Bodiebill rightfully mentioned before. But after attaching the Innuos back again I noticed why I lost my interest in listening right away..

 

A friend once described my system as listening to music in a space without walls, ceiling or floor. You are just there, 'in the music'. That is exactly what I was missing the last week. With the Bluesound your looking at a picture in front of you, though very colorful, well organized, nicely placed musicians, depth too, it's still a picture. The Innuos brings me right back where I want to be, in the music hall. 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Lol, we need to organize an international seminar to get to the bottom of all this 🤔

[bodiebill]

For what it is worth, here is the reaction of the person I sold my DA96 DAC to, made within a day after he connected it:

 

"The DAC sounds wonderful. Really a new dimension. Voices a.o . sound like reborn. At one point I thought that my amp now really sounds like a tube amp, not for the often mentioned warmth but rather for a sort of freshness and suppleness."

 

This is ranslated from Dutch but maybe I mistranslated the last word ("beweeglijkheid"). For some reason "mobility" felt strange.

 

[bodiebill]

Actually today I auditioned @Vincent des Champs new setup with the PD, Valvet E3 amp and Magico A1 speakers. It sounded absolutely gorgeous and we could not stop listening (although we had to at some point). The PD in his setup has none of the slight slowness that I experience in my own setup (with TAD ME1 and Reimyo KAP-777). Which goes to say that I have no fixed 'opinion' of the PD but I just realize that it behaves differently in different setups. One reason being perhaps that the Reimyo is tuned on the warm side and the combination with the PD might be too much of a good thing.

We also tried the Pegasus in Vincent's setup and agreed that it sounded a bit more open and controlled, and the PD somewhat warmer. I could listen to both with equal pleasure (at his place).

[Vincent des Champs]

I think we can conclude as follows:

- The PD plays way beyond its pricepoint.
- PD sounds differently in all setups and the source/ power/ cabling does matter in some aspects (ergo we cannot say it is 100% source independent and that is no shame at all).

- The sound character of the PD is slightly ‘dark’, ‘warm’ or ‘analog’ — I think we all mean the same. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not, this is why many of us like the PD so much.

- As always the hifi hobby is matching all components until your ‘favourite dish’ has been cooked. And everbody has a different taste, don’t we all?

 

I rest my case.

 

But I love to try some different dishes every now and then, also the French cuisine 😍. What a richness!

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, Vincent des Champs said:

The sound character of the PD is slightly ‘dark’, ‘warm’ or ‘analog’ — I think we all mean the same. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not, this is why many of us like the PD so much.

 

Where is the truth ? PowerDAC sounding dark/warm/analog or other DACs sounding bright/dry/digital (and PD being accurate) ?

It will be interesting to audition the S model and see how it performs (on relatively easy to drive speakers) with various music genres. I suspect we should get more consistent results from different listeners.

 

[bodiebill]

25 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Where is the truth ? PowerDAC sounding dark/warm/analog or other DACs sounding bright/dry (and PD being accurate) ?

It will be interesting to audition the S model and see how it performs (on relatively easy to drive speakers) with various music genres. I suspect we should get more consistent results from different listeners.

 

We all believe what we want to believe, no harm in that.

Truth is hardly a relevant concept here (I believe).

I guess I am less excited than others about the arrival of the S model. Already I feel a bit locked in with the R, with only TosLink, NOS and no DSD. The S would take this a step further and we just have too hope that it will be able to make all other amps redundant.

Of course getting locked in like this could make one inclined to become a believer in this solution as we do not like the FOMO alternative.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

59 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Truth is hardly a relevant concept here

 

People may have different preferences when it comes to sound reproduction (that's why EQ is useful), and that's fine, but I certainly hope that an "accurate" reproduction of a digital file is not a pipe dream. Otherwise we can all pack our bags and go home!

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

Where is the truth ? PowerDAC sounding dark/warm/analog or other DACs sounding bright/dry/digital (and PD being accurate) ?

It will be interesting to audition the S model and see how it performs (on relatively easy to drive speakers) with various music genres. I suspect we should get more consistent results from different listeners.

 

My thoughts on this :)  - The dark/warm/analog or bright/dry/digital issue is a common discussion point for audiophiles but I why I love using the UPL and Fractal DAC in my system is that I have all the detail and subtle nuances without any hint of brightness. This is what EC has managed to achieve at reasonable cost which is amazing.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

13 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

My thoughts on this :)  - The dark/warm/analog or bright/dry/digital issue is a common discussion point for audiophiles but I why I love using the UPL and Fractal DAC in my system is that I have all the detail and subtle nuances without any hint of brightness. This is what EC has managed to achieve at reasonable cost which is amazing.

 

That's how I see things as well but to be sure we have to compare with other DACs....

[bodiebill]

37 minutes ago, hopkins said:

... I certainly hope that an "accurate" reproduction of a digital file is not a pipe dream.

 

I understand accurate reproduction of a digital file within the digital domain. But after conversion to analogue? Can you explain what the concept then means and how we can perceive or measure it in any objective way? 

 

33 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

My thoughts on this :)  - The dark/warm/analog or bright/dry/digital issue is a common discussion point for audiophiles but I why I love using the UPL and Fractal DAC in my system is that I have all the detail and subtle nuances without any hint of brightness. This is what EC has managed to achieve at reasonable cost which is amazing.

 

Fully agreed. The PD is one of the DACs I owned with the best SQ-cost ratio!

(Actually number two, hence my interest in a comparison with the Pegasus, which is 50% cheaper.)

[Bram1103]

Intresting views.

 

I am a regular visitor of classical concerts being large scale orchestra's, small ensembles and soloists and having a piano at home.

 

Also knowing that I will (maybe) never achieve to get the exact live experience in my living room.

 

What I am loooking for is the DAC that brings me as closest to the tonal correctness of classical instruments. 

 

To my opinion it is not about warm sounding gear but it is about gear that can bring the natural warmth of a classical instrument being a piano, violin, cello, human voice etc. For me it is all about the natural warmth, the vibration and the air that the instrument are producing . 

 

I have heard to much bright/dry sounding DAC's taking out all the elements that I am looking for. I hear music but I do not feel the soul, the emotion and  hear the tonal correctness of the instruments.

 

When I hear music on vinyl it is like coming home, it makes me smile (ofcourse gear and recording quality depending).

 

I also see that streaming will be the future. Having a library with milions of albums/pieces of music is exciting and there is so much to explore.

 

After the summer holidays I will have the chance to listen to the DA96ETF and the UPL96ETL. Looking forward to have this experience

 

 

[bodiebill]

I find the PD great for classical!

 

We maybe focusing too much on the DAC here... Some great DACs let us hear digititus that is the result of a flawed source rather than add it. People with bad sources and good ears will not like these DACs. But these same DACs can also let us hear the glories of a great recording when played by a pure source.