ECdesigns

[murphythecat87]

anyone have had the issue of their U192ETL simply disconnecting and not being recognized by their computer? happened to me 3 times in 5 days where I had to disconnect the usb cable and reconnect it...

[bodiebill]

10 minutes ago, murphythecat87 said:

anyone have had the issue of their U192ETL simply disconnecting and not being recognized by their computer? happened to me 3 times in 5 days where I had to disconnect the usb cable and reconnect it...

 

Actually, I happened to have this problem just now...

[murphythecat87]

2 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Actually, I happened to have this problem just now...

the annoying thing is even restarting the computer doesnt fix the issue. the only way to have the pc recognize the U192 is by removing the usb then reconnecting. this never happened with the Utos

[Ben75]

On 11/23/2020 at 10:04 PM, matthias said:

 

According to this post they use MacBooks with Swinsian Player:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-768.html#post6277163

 

Matt

I remembered to try to listen to the U192ETL with my macbook Air 2013 and it sounded very good - even if the UPL96 was still better!

 

John uses his macbook Air and Pro to proceed to listening tests as I understood.

[matthias]

45 minutes ago, Ben75 said:

I remembered to try to listen to the U192ETL with my macbook Air 2013 and it sounded very good - even if the UPL96 was still better!

 

John uses his macbook Air and Pro to proceed to listening tests as I understood.

 

Yes, I think there might be a reason why they use MacBooks.

I am curious about the first serious listening tests with the new ARM based Macs. These seem to get USB host controllers from ASMedia which might be superior sounding than the Intel ones.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

You may have noticed thar ECD assembled some bit-perfect testers they développed, and are now offering, so to speak, on their web site: https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/bit-perfect-tester

 

I ordered one, not that I need it, since I use exlusively the UPL - out of curiosity. I'll test out a few players and report back. 

[Vincent des Champs]

I’ve been using the combo Allo Usbridge Sig (Shanti powered) - U192ETL  - Fractal DAC for a short time and I must say, promising! The level of micro details, dynamics, resolution and soundstage outperformes the internal DAC circuit of my Hegel H590 integrated (10k amp) with ease.

This weekend I will A/B test the U against the UPL.

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:13 PM, murphythecat87 said:

the annoying thing is even restarting the computer doesnt fix the issue. the only way to have the pc recognize the U192 is by removing the usb then reconnecting. this never happened with the Utos

 

I never had that problem while I was using the U192. Maybe there is a conflict with another driver on your PC? 

[matthias]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:13 PM, murphythecat87 said:

the annoying thing is even restarting the computer doesnt fix the issue. the only way to have the pc recognize the U192 is by removing the usb then reconnecting. this never happened with the Utos

 

Can loose fitting USB cable/connectors be the cause?

 

Matt

[numlog]

The disconnection is a problem with XMOS chips or their implementation, I dont know the cause but have encountered a few times in DACs using XMOS for USB, some weren't affected though. I think it maybe might have something to do with ESD protection getting false triggered somehow. 

[murphythecat87]

11 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Can loose fitting USB cable/connectors be the cause?

 

Matt

possible, it havent happened since so its not a big thing right now. 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

On 11/27/2020 at 5:46 PM, Vincent des Champs said:

I’ve been using the combo Allo Usbridge Sig (Shanti powered) - U192ETL  - Fractal DAC for a short time and I must say, promising! The level of micro details, dynamics, resolution and soundstage outperformes the internal DAC circuit of my Hegel H590 integrated (10k amp) with ease.

This weekend I will A/B test the U against the UPL.

 

 

The comparison brought me the following:

- The UPL pictures a more ‘black canvas’ and an even more striking 3d image - I would say somehow 10% improvement, a more ‘all around you’ experience. 

- Using the UPL handed in some body in the lower regions in comparison with the U192ETL but the bass seemed to have more speed and presence. I would describe it as ‘more tightly defined’

 

Do I prefer the ease of use of the U192ETL (upnp connected streamer with Tidal available) above the extra SQ that the UPL brings? Difficult question. I guess I am stuck with both devices anyways, because I cannot choose... 
 

Overall conclusion is that ECD offers high quality devices way above its price point.

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

As you mention, there is still a tradeoff between convenience and SQ if you want to use streaming and/or 3rd party music apps.

 

To repeat what has been said before, the DAC is not completely immune to the source. It could be tempting to invest more in the source, but I would not recommend doing so at this point, for several reasons:

 

- the cost/benefit ratio may make not make the investment worthwhile. What makes a source "low noise" is very difficult to know. Moreover, irrespective of the quality of the source, the conversion of the source signal just before the input to the DAC does still introduce some degradation, and I do not believe any manufacturer today addresses this adequately (this point is often overlooked when considering sources). 

 

- ECD is working on improvements that will level the playing field between all sources, and should provide a "definitive" solution to all this (this is not my personal opinion...it is based on information communicated by ECD).

 

We have to be a little more patient...

 

The DAC itself is not the issue - it is the step just before, which they are addressing with their DAPI development (mentioned on DIYAudio)

 

This should not deter potential customers who are curious about the ECD "set" (DAC + source, whether the U192 or UPL). While I am sure many systems can provide great sound quality, I think ECD does bring us a little closer to real fidelity, even now, and from an "audiophile" perspective, it is an interesting experiment, for a limited investment, that can serve as an eye opener. It can help identify weaknesses in other parts of the "audio chain", which more limited sources may not allow to reveal (even though the sound may seem very pleasant, there are usually tradeoffs and limitations).

 

Irrespective of these considerations, the question of "ownership" versus "streaming" of audio files remains. I don't think there is a universal answer to this question. Use of streaming services is incredibly convenient, provided the music you are looking for is available, but one has to be prudent as there is a high variability in the quality of the files offered. One could say that this is also the case for CDs or files purchased online directly from distributors - however with streaming services, knowing the origin of the music offered is not always so simple...

[Vincent des Champs]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

As you mention, there is still a tradeoff between convenience and SQ if you want to use streaming and/or 3rd party music apps.

 

To repeat what has been said before, the DAC is not completely immune to the source. It could be tempting to invest more in the source, but I would not recommend doing so at this point, for several reasons:

 

- the cost/benefit ratio may make not make the investment worthwhile. What makes a source "low noise" is very difficult to know. Moreover, irrespective of the quality of the source, the conversion of the source signal just before the input to the DAC does still introduce some degradation, and I do not believe any manufacturer today addresses this adequately (this point is often overlooked when considering sources). 

 

- ECD is working on improvements that will level the playing field between all sources, and should provide a "definitive" solution to all this (this is not my personal opinion...it is based on information communicated by ECD).

 

We have to be a little more patient...

 

The DAC itself is not the issue - it is the step just before, which they are addressing with their DAPI development (mentioned on DIYAudio)

 

This should not deter potential customers who are curious about the ECD "set" (DAC + source, whether the U192 or UPL). While I am sure many systems can provide great sound quality, I think ECD does bring us a little closer to real fidelity, even now, and from an "audiophile" perspective, it is an interesting experiment, for a limited investment, that can serve as an eye opener. It can help identify weaknesses in other parts of the "audio chain", which more limited sources may not allow to reveal (even though the sound may seem very pleasant, there are usually tradeoffs and limitations).

 

Irrespective of these considerations, the question of "ownership" versus "streaming" of audio files remains. I don't think there is a universal answer to this question. Use of streaming services is incredibly convenient, provided the music you are looking for is available, but one has to be prudent as there is a high variability in the quality of the files offered. One could say that this is also the case for CDs or files purchased online directly from distributors - however with streaming services, knowing the origin of the music offered is not always so simple...

To proof this, one should introduce an ultra high end source (like the  GrimmAudio MU1 player) comparing with the UPL solution.

 

My local hifi dealer is willing to accept the challenge and test it with several high end streamers (10k+ sources).

 

Even though I am still a little skeptical ECD is delivering the purest available ‘audio chain’, I am so curious! 

[matthias]

7 hours ago, hopkins said:

- ECD is working on improvements that will level the playing field between all sources, and should provide a "definitive" solution to all this (this is not my personal opinion...it is based on information communicated by ECD).

 

Do you have any info when they will be releasing such a solution?

Will this be before launching the PowerDAC?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 minute ago, matthias said:

 

Do you have any info when they will be releasing such a solution?

Will this be before launching the PowerDAC?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

 

No info. AFAIK it is what they are working on with the PowerDAC and am not aware of another product. 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 hours ago, Vincent des Champs said:

To proof this, one should introduce an ultra high end source (like the  GrimmAudio MU1 player) comparing with the UPL solution.

 

My local hifi dealer is willing to accept the challenge and test it with several high end streamers (10k+ sources).

 

Even though I am still a little skeptical ECD is delivering the purest available ‘audio chain’, I am so curious! 

 

That would be interesting indeed! 

[Huubster]

5 hours ago, Vincent des Champs said:

To proof this, one should introduce an ultra high end source (like the  GrimmAudio MU1 player) comparing with the UPL solution.

 

My local hifi dealer is willing to accept the challenge and test it with several high end streamers (10k+ sources).

 

Even though I am still a little skeptical ECD is delivering the purest available ‘audio chain’, I am so curious! 

Not many people will have that opportunity, I think you will do us all a favour when you are able to do such comparisons! 😁

[matthias]

15 minutes ago, hopkins said:

No info. AFAIK it is what they are working on with the PowerDAC and am not aware of another product. 

 

I suppose then ECD means the DAPI receiver will be this solution:

 

"The USB / Toslink / Coax DAPI receiver receiver we are now working on will replace the USB-only DAPI receiver if it performs equally well.
So we plan to use one universal DAPI receiver for future projects"

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

5 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

I suppose then ECD means the DAPI receiver will be this solution:

 

"The USB / Toslink / Coax DAPI receiver receiver we are now working on will replace the USB-only DAPI receiver if it performs equally well.
So we plan to use one universal DAPI receiver for future projects"

 

Matt

Yes, exactly what i am referring to. 

[matthias]

6 hours ago, Vincent des Champs said:

To proof this, one should introduce an ultra high end source (like the  GrimmAudio MU1 player) comparing with the UPL solution.

 

This is a great idea 😃

The Grimm MU1 might not be the perfect candidate since it has no proper USB outputs.

Does your dealer have a Taiko Extreme as well?

 

Anyway you can do the comparisons without the FractalDAC.

 

Thanks

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

22 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

This is a great idea 😃

The Grimm MU1 might not be the perfect candidate since it has no proper USB outputs.

Does your dealer have a Taiko Extreme as well?

 

Anyway you can do the comparisons without the FractalDAC.

 

Thanks

 

Matt

 

Because their products will evolve/improve, comparing the Fractal DAC may actually be more relevant? The UPL alone used with another DAC may not be so distinctive. Maybe comparing UPL+Fractal vs any high end source+DAC? 

[matthias]

14 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Because their products will evolve/improve, comparing the Fractal DAC may actually be more relevant? The UPL alone used with another DAC may not be so distinctive. Maybe comparing UPL+Fractal vs any high end source+DAC? 

 

IMO, the comparison should be made with the FractalDAC:

 

UPL>>FractalDAC

vs

Various "Superservers">>U192>>FractalDAC

 

The "Superservers" must have then USB output.

 

Matt

[bodiebill]

Just now, matthias said:

IMO, the comparison should be made with the FractalDAC:

 

UPL>>FractalDAC

vs

Various "Superservers">>U192>>FractalDAC

 

True, but this would would be a comparison between

 

€333 >> €635

vs

>€10.000 >> €333 >> €635

 

so even if the latter would be as good as the first, I would not change anything in my setup.

 

and with the coax-ready DAPI, maybe I could finally try (as I cannot imagine a Taiko Extreme to be cleaner than this):

 

SDTrans384 >> Power DAC

(€550 >> €???)

 

:-)

[matthias]

29 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

True, but this would would be a comparison between

 

€333 >> €635

vs

>€10.000 >> €333 >> €635

 

so even if the latter would be as good as the first, I would not change anything in my setup.

 

and with the coax-ready DAPI, maybe I could finally try (as I cannot imagine a Taiko Extreme to be cleaner than this):

 

SDTrans384 >> Power DAC

(€550 >> €???)

 

:-)

 

Yes, the UPL and the SDTrans384 are a steal but you can not do streaming with Qobuz with them.

Further it would be interesting to compare the quality of the "Superservers" with the ECDs.

But the question is if it makes sense to do these comparisons before DAPI is launched.

 

BTW: Does the SPDIF output sound the same as I2S output of SDTrans?

 

Matt