ECdesigns

[Ben75]

@matthias : Can you please stop to say false/inaccurate things please ?

 

1) PowerDAC will not be for only high-sensitivoty speakers. 

2) "I am sure the existing devices of ECD (as good as they may be) are only a testbed for the PowerDAC."

This is false. ECDesigns launched final products here that are sufficient to themselves. PowerDAC are expected to prolongate/follow this innovation by integrating all of those element in one whole solution. UPL96/Fractal DAC duo, for instance, will never be erased from ECD market offering. They will be priced differently.

3) "PowerDAC should be logicaly better than active loudspeakers as well as UPL96 + Fractal DAC combo. :-)"

May I correct myself? "PowerDAC should LOGICALY be better than any active loudspeakers WHEN USED WITH A HIGHLY TRANSPARENT LOUDSPEAKERS. :-)

4) PowerDAC is not the subject of this thread. Topic closed for me.

[Ben75]

@Superdad: Did you purchase a UP96ETL and Fractal DAC combo? If yes, what is your experience so far?

[Ben75]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

Some updates from ECD about the PowerDAC:

 

"I have been optimising the Fractal D/A converter driver boards. PCBs for the next test version have been ordered.
There are plans to offer a bridge version (double output power) for driving less sensitive speakers.
Focus right now is on the development of a novel DAPI (Digital Audio Parallel Interface) receiver for the PowerDAC and headphones PowerDAC. 
USB only DAPI receiver, proof of concept version, is already up and running. The USB / Toslink / Coax DAPI receiver is under development."

 

Matt

Nice news!

[Ben75]

19 hours ago, tims said:

I have the UPL combo'ed up with the DA96 DAC and I was wondering how many of you have the U192 as well as the UPL. 

 

To me the fractal DAC is a must have but those of you with both the  UPL and the U192;  as the DAC only has one input do you have a second DAC to run both without having to change ElectroTos cable each time you want to use each of them or perhaps use some other configuration?

 

It's too bad that the DA96 only has one ElectroTos input but maybe an extra input would degrade the SQ in some way?  

I don’t remember well where, but John said that getting only one input in the fractal DAC was made at purpose, in a sonic meaning.

 

Concerning the reviewers, perhaps Zero Fidelity is a better choice than Z reviews who seems less able to create a great review with deep understanding of the sound signature and qualities of the PowerDAC.

 

Anyway, as a (future) customer of EC Designs, I would not care at all that they do not make some advertising... we are already doing it and this can expand very quick and far! This would increase the price of their products and we will get less connected to John concerning inquiries and questions. Finally, this would also jeopardy the exclusivity to be a ECD customer! :-)

[Ben75]

20 hours ago, numlog said:

What are you comparing it to? And have you used the UPL with another DAC to compare to Fractal alone?
Same question to anyone else who has the combo

 

Im curious about the DAC, any information about it is very vague, Im sure it's good on it's own but unsure how much UPL accounts for the 'breakthrough', a good digital interface is half the battle for SQ.

Perfectly in line with @hopkins and @Norton : the true gem in the ECD combo (UPL96 + DA96) is their DAC - even if the UPL remains better than 90% of any sources out there (from my experience). But I have never heard from a Taiko Extreme yet! 😄

The few weaknesses of the UPL96 were (according to my memories - but I should come back to Stéphane House for a listenning session) about the coherence of the soundstage (but very great already). But this machine already gives you a great sense of naturaleness I would say. Such a streamer is rare as music doesn't sound cold/digital yet, with realistic tones etc.

 

For @mevdinc, who likes his active loudspeakers it would be a terrible match ! However, it would be great to wait for the DAPI receiver that is expected to function like the U192ETL and is assumed to sound better than UPL96.

Why that?

Because it should technically allow the Fractal DAC to give its best as the DAPI will receive only the DATA (and store it into a RAM buffer) and will then process the digital signal to the Fractal DAC at the best parameters (double parallel processing + clocked separately at 200kHz). The most difficult will be for them to develop this solution as it seems very tough to encode the software I guess... 

[Ben75]

On 11/5/2020 at 5:26 PM, bodiebill said:

 

Does not the fractal DAC require either the U192 or the UPL96? How then can we know that the DA96 is the 'true gem'? Isn't it all about the synergy between the two boxes? They could have combined the U192 + DA96 into one box, and then all of us would have called this a (usb-)DAC. Or am I missing something? 

I can only say that I found the Fractal DAC being already so good with the UPL96 while technically not able to exploit the full DA96 potential (20MhZ band limiter; no double parallel data processing, dependency to the source for the U192ETL etc.). It is already giving great results (especially for the UPL96) but you feel that the Fractal DAC has a lot of performance not yet exploited.

 

When we tried the UPL96 with a Denafrips Terminator the Fractal DAC weighted way above (some would say it was slightly better)... I would agree with this assumption but for me it was quantitatively a little bit better but qualitatively it was like a jump in another dimension of music reproduction.

 

That is why we will duly wait for the PowerDAC and DAPI receiver. 🙂

[Ben75]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:52 PM, bodiebill said:

Thanks seetoyou, I did think about that, but i am too lazy and happy to go to such lengths.

Lol I understand you ^^'

Perhaps, the last test (easy to do) will be to compare your Terminator with SDTrans384 compared with the DAPI + Fractal DAC.

This will be fair in terms of methodology and will enables us to state if the Fractal DAC punches above the Terminator (which it is not the case in terms of kilograms.. ^^')

 

But I agree about your statement about synergy.

[Ben75]

5 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Do you have info when the DAPI will be launched?

Thanks

 

Matt

Nothing tangible sorry.. I understand that the software is the toughest part to tackle with... But they progress very well with the hardware. I also heard that PowerDAC was getting optimised (gate array for volume control, etc.). John is litteraly a perfectionist... for the best ! ^^'

I understand why they decided to take more than one year to launch the PowerDAC as it is a very demanding project for John and that he really wants to launch a finalized/optimized version.

[Ben75]

2 hours ago, murphythecat87 said:

Ive compared the Mosaic t + U192ETL vs the Utos + MOS16.

not close, the former setup is the most natural, transparent source, with better impact and bass.

 

My Utopia sings, thanks ec designs!

Excellent news coming from 3 new EC Designs fans! :-)

 

@murphythecat87 : Would you expect ot lend your ECD combo to k4rstar to try on his setup? I don't like his attitude against EC Designs but this should certainly change very quickly when he will just get the opportunity to listen to ECD electronics! :-)

[Ben75]

On 11/23/2020 at 10:04 PM, matthias said:

 

According to this post they use MacBooks with Swinsian Player:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-768.html#post6277163

 

Matt

I remembered to try to listen to the U192ETL with my macbook Air 2013 and it sounded very good - even if the UPL96 was still better!

 

John uses his macbook Air and Pro to proceed to listening tests as I understood.

[Ben75]

 

4 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I don't doubt that there are many avenues to good sound today. But my takeway from what ECD explains is that basically every solution today (including theirs) is imperfect. In this imperfect world of audio (and especially digital) reproduction, we don't have references, everything sounds a little different but we have no way of knowing what is really closest to the truth - how far away we are... My hope is that they continue to bring us  closer to "high fidelity". When we have reached that goal (you could argue - how will we know?) I'll make sure the source is bit-perfect as well 😊

 

I don't see other audio engineers going as deep as they have  in understanding the "core" problems of digital audio reproduction, and coming up with novel ways of handling them. So I am putting my trust in them, but of course still open to seeing other  approaches. 

 

 

 

MSB seems to be their competitors as they have a very close philosophy (even if they are not planning the launch of a PowerDAC). However, those DACs start at 10,000 in the very basic version (not optimal) and finishes at more than 90,000 euros... ^^'

 

My take is that PowerDAC expected price (divulged by @murphythecat87) is still affordable, especially considering the fact you should litteraly be able to delete any preamp and amp (+ related interconnects) in your Hifi chain and that this solution may be their last innovation in terms of DACs and "amplification" for a while, before launching a new DAC (which I don't think they are ager to proceed in such way, assuming the qualities of their Fractal DAC.

I hope their DAPI receivers will not be too expensive too.

 

I just hope their system of "gate drivers" and "MOSFET H-Bridges" that will allow the control of the volume will be reliable. But John already loves it! ^^'

[Ben75]

21 hours ago, realDHT said:

I think you can guess what will be put into the left and right shielded areas 😃

 

 

Just splendid..

 

I was remembering John said that he will build the PowerDAC LPSU on the LT3045 module too, as they seem to be the best LT modules out there.

[Ben75]

15 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Agree,

I must say the only one specification of the PowerDAC I am a little bit worried about is the high output impedance of 1.7 Ohms. Certainly it is perfect for a headphone amp but for a power amp output would a much lower impedance be desirable.

What I can imagine is that it will sound ultra transparent and clean but maybe offer less slam and drive.

I really hope that my concern will be unfounded.

 

Matt

Why not asking to ECD directly and report back here? It would be nice to know. :-)

 

Anyway, John is still working a lot on the PowerDAC as he wants to launch it only when it will be perfectly optimised!

[Ben75]

On 12/15/2020 at 3:38 PM, Huubster said:

 

In my experience that slightly forward signature you are talking about is a consequence of distortion/harshness in the sound, caused by whatever reason (I don't intend to go into that discussion here).  I always thought that the Yggdrasil was clean, open and detailed, but you will change your mind once you hear the ECDesigns Fractal set. The Yggdrasil can brighten up a darker sounding set nicely though. 

 

The Fractal set is so free of any distortion and stress, it can initially be interpreted as dull, boring and not dynamic. That was at least my very first reaction after hearing the first notes, after being used to the Yggdrasil for more than 2 years. But soon you realise it was distortion that made the Yggdrasil 'pop'. 

 

The Fractal set translates music to a coherent, organic and life-like sound like no other DAC I heard can do. 

I had the exact same experience the first times I listened to the Fractal DAC and U192/UPL96 combo.. I was totally disconcerted and thought it was disappointing.

But I re-listen to this combo some extra moments (especially when the 20Mhz band limiter was installed in @hopkins UPL96) and I really understood that my expectations in Audiophile sound reproduction were wrong (fatiguing and harsh sound) but also not close any time of the real recording the studio made. EC Designs is the company that finally brings objectivity to the Hifi industry.

 

I can't be more confindent in EC Designs future as the Fractal DAC is the only DAC that I could live with (with UPL96 it is already very good, better than 90% of the streamers out there - the remaining 10% would be the potential unknown equipments that sound very great like the SDTrasn384 etc.).

I can't wait to listen to the coming DAPI receiver..

[Ben75]

2 hours ago, realDHT said:

Nice. The Janzen foil coils I think is exactly the same as those Mundorf have. This recepe is somewhat different from my cables. In mine, the plus and minus foils are tightly stacked on top of each other with double sided PE tape in between. That design idea for that was from Allen Wright (RIP) that at the time wrote a 'supercable cookbook'. The idea was to minimize the inductance of the cable by having a thin tape (at the same time this will maximize the capacitance), he also said the tape preventing movements of both foils was important for the sound. The downside being the risk of shortcircuiting the amplifier with a small mistake in the assembly. The trickyness of the assembly sort of grows exponentially with the lenght of the cable :) Guess the same is true for the one you built.     

 

I actually also built a pair with Mundorf 99.99% silver foil cables that sounded great but unfortunately lost that pair several years ago and never found it, might have got thrown away for trash by someone, they looked quite awful 😁

John shared with us an experience he had at a Hifi show : the best system they heard had silver foil speakers interlinks.. but perhaps John will pursue his research for the best loudspeakers interconnects and will share with us his findings?! :-)

[Ben75]

6 hours ago, Varinder said:

Pls check what are the specs of above power DAC made by Russian guy 

« Digital managed volume control » : that sounds really bad... digital controlling the volume has never worked as it apparently degrade the sound.

PowerDAC will be different..

[Ben75]

On 12/31/2020 at 12:42 PM, Gavin1977 said:

Founds part of the answer... the DA96 has 375 Ohm output impedance, my existing T+A DAC 8 DSD has 22 ohms output impedance.

 

Therefore a preamp should help the lower registers, the Master 9 I have on order has an output impedance of 1 ohm - so should drive anything well.

 

Thanks

I would agree about the lack of "truthness" (coloration, etc.) of the Audio GD DACs and Preamp. If you can, Gavin, give a try to this superb preamp I think it will highly reward you with a superb sound (much more close to the true sound in my opinion) :  http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

 

Then you will have to get a great pair of interlink cables, like those one (Hopkins have them and it improved a lot its setup from the previous ones) : Coincident Speaker Technology ST-1 interconnects (http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/cablesindex.htm)

 

Happy new year to everybody!! This is the year of the PowerDAC and DAPI receiver! ;-)

[Ben75]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:59 PM, matthias said:

 

Maybe, but what about the source issue when other DACs with the same laptop deliver the slam?

BTW, ECD seem to run their devices with laptops (from Apple) as well.

 

Matt

Yes but :

- It seems as U192 + Macbook Air is really nice but not great at all.. In comparison the UPL96 is far better!

- Their OB loudspeakers topology can be challenged ...

- It hink they use in the everyday life the UPL96 as it is far better than the U192 (except when you feed it with the Innuos ZEN mini & Paul Hynes SR4(T).

- That is why they developped the DAPI receiver : to reach a better level than the UPL96 with streaming/S/PDIF source.

 

I think Huubster is right here ! Source is really important with the U192 and the Fractal is completely a crazy machine!

 

However, John said that they will equip their PowerDAC PS with LT3045 module that could certainly reduce the gap between Fractal PS (that is already very great according to people that use them in the everyday life and compare it with other LPSU) and other LPSU (PH SR4T etc.). This is pure speculation but we can bet for the best! :-)

[Ben75]

19 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Speculation for sure but my 2 cents on this subject is that voltage regulators, even the famous by now LT3045 introduce stability and/or noise issues at their output. Even though using the LT3045s can bring big improvements, personally I found issues that only appeared to me over time when experimenting with them in/after my power supplies over the past few years. 

For those interested, often quoted is the ultra low noise output of 0.8uVRMS from the LT3045s but this is measured in a static condition. In real applications, this condition will never exist as load demand is always dynamic and ripple can be re- introduced.

 

The best DC power solution I have looked into is using high capacity super or Ultra capacitors at output which do not have the problem of regs. They have very low impedance with the ability to deliver current quickly and significantly improve the power supply quality by reducing both internal ESR and noise levels, as well as increasing the stability and the optimum delivered current. 

 

This all means no noise is created in the ground plane which ultimately affects the sound. The most important thing is the perfect load response, much better than any regulator.

 

Ian Canada (over on DIYaudio) has released (among other things) a 5V Ultra cap DIY board that works with any existing 5V power supply. I have recently installed 2 of these, powering separately the U192 and the Fractal DAC. I noticed subtle but distinct SQ improvements  - background darker, the sound more dynamic, vivid and richer, overall enhanced SQ... YMMV of course...

 

I am not affiliated with Ian in any way but have followed this development for sometime, so I might inform EC to check this out.

 

It seems you are right.. It could be beneficial if you get a call to EC Designs (as they do not respond a lot to Emails those times). Would be great!

 

Did you installed the 2 Ultra Capacitors in your PH SR4? Is the PH SR4 using a LT3045 module?

[Ben75]

9 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Once again, that is the PowerDAC R with fixed output. If "paying for features that you won't use" is an issue, you should wait to see what the offering price is and then decide. There is no point about whining about it now (especially coming from someone who was considering buying a 20.000€ music server...). Wait until the product is released, and then consider the total cost of ownership of competing products:

- on the one hand: cost of a high end DAC + high end music server + high end digital cables + high end network switch and power supplies + endless tweaking...

- on the other hand: PowerDAC R + basic toslink cable + basic PC as a source

If they deliver on SQ, it will be a no brainer.

Let's wait and see. 

Perfectly agree with you Stéphane!

 

@matthias : Could you stop sending a message every hour that doesn't bring something substantial to the table?

Your taste is not like ours and we are speaking about Hifi (something about listening if you remember...)

You should write to John and stop polluting this thread please. Be constructive and stop compulsively interact with us in this discussion.

Even if the point of selling a DAPI + Fractal DAC in the same box would be nice, deleting the preamp of the audio chain is even better - and the final price of the PowerDAC-R may be not too high.

[Ben75]

6 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I know this passage, tbh it appears to me not as a mature solution (but the proof is in the listening).

 

Matt

A nice video I really liked in the past that totally ruin your "immature" assertion @matthias : 

 

Have you ever listened to EC Designs' products? Your presence in this thread should be very modest or not whether you answer yes or not to that question and whethere you bring substantial, respectful and constructive elements to the table...

 

Judging products created by John BROWN (assuming you potentially have never heard any of his creations) that are not already launched should imply from you a minimum of rigor and good manners.

Last time : could you stop polluting this thread by sharing too often excessive messages about your feelings about something you don't know or experienced by any way?

 

If you decide to pursue in this unconstructive and irrespectful way (by treating John of "immature"), perhaps @The Computer Audiophile may block you from this thread in the future?

Many thanks for your comprehension,

[Ben75]

3 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Surely the information the DAC designers are sharing must be respected, if you don't find their ideas or claims realistic or achievable then that's fine too. The proof is always in the listening, none should buy any equipment purely based on other user experiences. You should always listen and decide yourselves, that's what I do.

  Some of the members of this discussion group maybe seen as 'fan boys' and so be it, those who don't like the content or the claims can just move onto other topics and there are plenty on this Forum.
It's nice to read the experiences and opinions of others, that's the main purpose of this Forum, sharing our knowledge and experiences. 

I perfectly agree wwith you !

 

"It's nice to read the experiences and opinions of others, that's the main purpose of this Forum, sharing our knowledge and experiences. " That is the problem I was pointing out : Matthias speaks and denigrates things that he has never listened to.

 

I think he should just be respectful and humble. That could help ^^'

[Ben75]

8 hours ago, RickyV said:

Is there any idea how much watt the powerdac will produce? Would be fantastic if i could use it for my Raal, 100w.

I would say between 6WRMS and 40WRMS for a PowerDAC-R and the addition of a Buffer and a tube. :-) But we have to wait for more precise information from ECD...

[Ben75]

9 hours ago, hopkins said:

when it comes out, a full battery of tests/comparisons and have as many trusted ears as I can give their opinion about it.

Prem's ! ^^' I can't wait to give tjhe PowerDAC-R a try at your house Stéphane when it will be launched ! :-)

[Ben75]

38 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

Wow, you lucky thing! :)

Great write up, I am really curious to hear it in my system although it only offers RCA outputs.
I wish they'd offer balanced output but presumably they think it's not necessary. There must be so many people like me with XLR inputs only. I really wouldn't like to use an adapter (RCA to XLR) but if that's the only option then it might be worth a shot.

I wish they'd use me aa a BETA tester to see how it sounds in my system. :)
Put in a good word for me Hopkins. :)))

Thanks for sharing your initial impressions. 

Hi Mevdinc,

 

1) You will have 15 days to send back the PowerDAC-R when it will be launched (but I think you will not ..)

2) Perhaps should you ask to John what he could do for you (adding a XLR output to your unit? developping Y-cable adapter?)

3) For the little price and the huge quality you have I cannot recommend you more about getting a unit for you !

 

All the best,