Paul R Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 You wish Some things in audio are a clear matter of preference. Like tube vs SS. Which preference by the way was tested in some major DBTs. On average tubes won with the most novices and SS with the most experienced listeners. But most things audio are actually not a matter of preference. Almost everyone can hear that 1% THN sounds better (all other things equal of course). And DBTs are quite often used to find differences. There is precisely _zero_ taste involved in such a test. So no, I dont see much similarity between audio DBTs and pepsi's somewhat funny taste challenge. Which wasnt even supposed to be much of a science experiment but a clever marketing ploy. Well, guess we will just have to disagree then. I can't prove to you that sighted listening tests are better than DBTs and you can't prove to me that DBTs are better than sighted tests. Funny thing, I bet we *both* use Sighted listening tests *and* DBTs of some fashion or another when we are critically listening to equipment. And you will never get me to believe that 1% THD in RAP music is just as good for a test as say, Alan Parsons or Respighi! Purely a matter of taste there? Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
trithio Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Well, guess we will just have to disagree then. I can't prove to you that sighted listening tests are better than DBTs and you can't prove to me that DBTs are better than sighted tests. Funny thing, I bet we *both* use Sighted listening tests *and* DBTs of some fashion or another when we are critically listening to equipment. And you will never get me to believe that 1% THD in RAP music is just as good for a test as say, Alan Parsons or Respighi! Purely a matter of taste there? I cant prove most things to you while keeping my dear anonymity. Sighted vs Blind I cant prove either. But this guy did http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html Clear and clean results. Done with the best possible subjects: audio industry veterans. And if they failed... As about RAP music, I believe you are just trying to add noise to the argument . Link to comment
Jud Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I cant prove most things to you while keeping my dear anonymity. Sighted vs Blind I cant prove either. But this guy didAudio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests Clear and clean results. Done with the best possible subjects: audio industry veterans. And if they failed... Regardless of any questions about how good DBTs are or how well they are performed, I do think that very often, perhaps most of the time, for most people, sighted listening introduces bias. Now the article is about speakers, so not strictly bits. But I like it anyway for this wonderful quote: G and D were identical loudspeakers except with different cross-overs, voiced ostensibly for differences in German and Northern European tastes, respectively. The negligible perceptual differences between loudspeakers G and D found in this test resulted in the creation of a single loudspeaker SKU for all of Europe, and the demise of an engineer who specialized in the lost art of German speaker voicing.... One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
trithio Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Regardless of any questions about how good DBTs are or how well they are performed, I do think that very often, perhaps most of the time, for most people, sighted listening introduces bias. Now the article is about speakers, so not strictly bits. But I like it anyway for this wonderful quote: Unfortunately looks like I cannot quote that quote. But I do have some input to that 'german sound'. I do work there relatively often and I think there is some truth to it. Most people seem to prefer a very technical and 'crispy' sound. The Beyerdynamic HPs are maybe the best sample of that. Like the 880. Heard some systems in clients/colleagues homes, visited some audio shops and went to a few concerts, clubs and so on. Seems to be quite the same everywhere. And very noticeable for me because although I do like the clarity, the 880 hurts my ears after max 30 mins. Same in many audio places in germany. Not sure about the others nordics, havent been there as often. Link to comment
Paul R Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I cant prove most things to you while keeping my dear anonymity. Sighted vs Blind I cant prove either. But this guy didAudio Musings by Sean Olive: The Dishonesty of Sighted Listening Tests Clear and clean results. Done with the best possible subjects: audio industry veterans. And if they failed... As about RAP music, I believe you are just trying to add noise to the argument . For that, there would have to be an argument, and I am simply refusing to argue, conceed, or otherwise change my opinion, since no new information is being presented. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
trithio Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 For that, there would have to be an argument, and I am simply refusing to argue, conceed, or otherwise change my opinion, since no new information is being presented. That's so much better than just simply losing an argument Link to comment
PeterSt Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Adding to this thread because of the ban of trihitio causes the last page (with his post in the thread originally being the last one - now gone), so maybe it starts working again. So I don't know at the moment what's on the last page (4) ... You guys do know that when you are presented a glass of "cola" and a glass of 7Up blind folded, you can't tell the difference, right ? Edit, PS: Thread now works again and no 4rd page existed as it seems. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
mayhem13 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 So another nay sayer gets banned huh? ......good job everyone, goo job! The kingdom of the Elitist Curmudgeons is once again secure and all is right with the world. Your illustrious sargeants of arms DAudio and SandyK have one again been victorious over the evil minions of science and rationality. Long Live The King! ........this is some real Dark Ages shit right here lads. Link to comment
trithio Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I'm just here. Why does everyone say I'm banned? Am I talking to myself or something and my posts are not visible to anyone else!?!? Link to comment
elcorso Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Another difference is that Coke uses different types of sugar in different countries. For example, they use corn syrup in the U.S. and cane sugar in Mexico. Yes, and this changes his flavor also. South of the border there is plenty of sugar cane, then less expensive than the (damned) US corn syrup. Roch Link to comment
esldude Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 So another nay sayer gets banned huh? ......good job everyone, goo job! The kingdom of the Elitist Curmudgeons is once again secure and all is right with the world. Your illustrious sargeants of arms DAudio and SandyK have one again been victorious over the evil minions of science and rationality. Long Live The King! ........this is some real Dark Ages shit right here lads. Yes it is. The banned person might not have been the smoothest fellow on the forum at this point. Yet I saw nothing he should be banned for at all. Unless he posted something terrible I didn't see, or as Chris will sometimes do, he exchanged some PM's that Chris monitored and found a reason not evident on the rest of the forum. Rather bothersome Chris has offered no explanation either. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Yes it is. The banned person might not have been the smoothest fellow on the forum at this point. Yet I saw nothing he should be banned for at all. Unless he posted something terrible I didn't see, or as Chris will sometimes do, he exchanged some PM's that Chris monitored and found a reason not evident on the rest of the forum. Rather bothersome Chris has offered no explanation either. He hasn't been banned. He has been sent to Coventry: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/prot-23252/index8.html#post392727 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Jud Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 He hasn't been banned. He has been sent to Coventry: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/prot-23252/index8.html#post392727 For us, effectively the same. For him, apparently, unfortunately not. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 For us, effectively the same. For him, apparently, unfortunately not. Sad but true. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Daudio Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 So another nay sayer gets banned huh?......good job everyone, goo job! The kingdom of the Elitist Curmudgeons is once again secure and all is right with the world. Your illustrious sargeants of arms DAudio and SandyK have one again been victorious over the evil minions of science and rationality. Long Live The King! ........this is some real Dark Ages shit right here lads. Sigh... another troll heard from Surviving at least one trial ban, his old anarchic self now seems covered with barnacles. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Sigh... another troll heard from Surviving at least one trial ban, his old anarchic self now seems covered with barnacles. Have to admire someone with the cojones to say what others are only thinking... Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Have to admire someone with the cojones to say what others are only thinking... So much for no sniping ! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
kumakuma Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 So much for no sniping ! What snipe? I was simply stating that not everyone may agree with the vocal few who have posted on this subject. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
PewterTA Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The audio group in Pittsburgh has done a lot of testing and what we call DBT, but in reality we have no way to do a DBT, it's really just a SBT. Our problem is, each of us knows the others systems enough so we can't do a true DBT. The best we've been able to do is SBT. But even with one person being the control/constant of doing the test, we've come up with a basic conclusion that a good deal of the time it's our expectations that change the results, not necessarily the actual equipment being tested. We always do any test at least 5 times figuring that will give us the best accomplishment of trying to figure out the differences. When doing two pieces of equipment we always make sure that we have some times where it could be the same thing twice in a row (ie no a,b,a,b,a but a,b,a,a,b for example). There have been multiple times where we can either definitely hear differences and we all reliably agree with each time tested...or we get a good 50/50 percentage where we can't really hear a difference. There is another piece of it where we all swear we hear differences and it's the same piece of equipment back to back and we were so sure that it had to be changed that it can be frustrating. The problem or things we noticed and now accept as a flaw in our testing is that there are things out of our control. Such things as power issues, health (sinus pressure/allergies), source (meaning what we use for demoing, some things don't show the differences like we initially think). Maybe if we had an anechoic chamber we could do better testing and constant power supply, no interference from airwaves, etc. we could do better testing... Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 What snipe? I was simply stating that not everyone may agree with the vocal few who have posted on this subject. Have to admire someone with the cojones to say what others are only thinking... You were clearly praising Mayhem 13, NOT Daudio. Daudio was replying to a post from Mayhem13 that said this in it. Your illustrious sargeants of arms DAudio and SandyK have one again been victorious over the evil minions of science and rationality. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
kumakuma Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 You were clearly praising Mayhem 13, NOT Daudio. Daudio was replying to a post that said this in it. Praising Mayhem13 for having the courage to say something that is clearly unpopular is not the same as criticizing Daudio. If Daudio took it this way, this is between him and me. I didn't realize that you were mentioned in the original post and might think I was sniping at you. If I had, I wouldn't have posted it as I have no interest in further aggravating you. I have apologized to you twice already for everything I may have said to you in the past. It is up to you to decide whether or not to accept my apologies. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
AlainGr Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 We each have our own perceptions about what someone posts, but "courage" was not the first thing I thought when I read what Mayhem13 posted... Alain Link to comment
Daudio Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 You were clearly praising Mayhem 13, NOT Daudio. Daudio was replying to a post from Mayhem13 that said this in it. Alex, Whoa boy !! I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. He quoted me, and respected my cojones (thanks you, kk). Please pull in your claws, not needed here (and maybe better used more rarely ?). But I do confess to being often confused on how to take kk's posts ?!? edit: I now think I see kk saying he was talking about mayhem13 ? Well so what ! I'm sticking with what I first wrote in this post, including the thanks Why ? because there is far too much bad blood splattered around CA lately... Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Alex, Whoa boy !! I'm pretty sure you have it backwards. He quoted me, and respected my cojones (thanks you, kk). Please pull in your claws, not needed here (and maybe better used more rarely ?). But I do confess to being often confused on how to take kk's posts ?!? Dave Are you SURE he was praising you ? That post could be taken 2 ways. K.K does not appear to be denying that he was praising Mayhem13. Alex Praising Mayhem13 for having the courage to say something that is clearly unpopular is not the same as criticizing Daudio.-KK How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
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