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Bits Is/Ain't Bits: A Modest Proposal


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... You and a few others apparently have no issues going 'you clowns' and 'shit your hands and clap' and whatnot. But if I go even 1/10 that way, the whole bunch of you jumps on my back with yells of troll, ban him and retard and go somewhere else and so on.

Such nice people you are.

... See that 'bits are bits disease' post. So that's off for me too.

The rest doesnt even deserve attention.

 

trithio (or whatever your real name is),

 

The main reason that I have been giving you a hard time is that I am very unhappy with your snide digs, derogatory comments, and outright insults directed at anything even remotely subjective in your eyes, or perceived attacks. And not just occasionally, but seemingly in every post to those who don't agree with you. And then again here, in the quoted post.

 

It is your online behavior that I have had a problem with, NOT your beliefs. I may disagree with you on audio issues, but that is fine. CA folks can disagree all the time, but remain respectful while discussing those issues.

 

You should know that there are a LOT of CA people who agree a little, or a lot, with those 'subjective' issues and 'anecdotes', or, at least, they respectfully ignore them. Your digs and insults offend them too. I don't think you really want to antagonize all these people, making enemies, getting flamed, risking banning (never pleasant). Right ?

 

If you would like to have you and your audio beliefs at least respected, if not agreed with, you should extend the same courtesy to all the other CA members. It is easy, and only fair !

 

So I'll make you a deal. You cut out all the nasty comments, and I will respectably ignore you. OK ?

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trithio (or whatever your real name is),

 

The main reason that I have been giving you a hard time is that I am very unhappy with the snide digs, derogatory comments, and outright insults directed at anything even remotely subjective in your eyes, or perceived attacks. And not just occasionally, but seemingly in every post to those who don't agree with you. And then again here, in the quoted post.

 

It is your online behavior that I have had a problem with, NOT your beliefs. I may disagree with you on audio issues, but that is fine. CA folks can disagree all the time, but remain respectful while discussing those issues.

 

You should know that there are a LOT of CA people who subscribe a little or a lot to those 'subjective' issues and 'anecdotes', or, at least they respectfully ignore them. Your digs and insults offend them too. I don't think you really want to antagonize all these people, making enemies, getting flamed, risking banning (never pleasant). Right ?

 

If you would like to have your audio beliefs at least respected, if not agreed with, you should extend the same courtesy to all the other CA members. It is easy, and only fair !

 

So I'll make you a deal. You cut out all the nasty comments, and I will respectably ignore you. OK ?

 

What 'nasty comments' ?!?!

I made a total of ONE comment that may be considered somewhat nasty, snipping at superdad a while ago. Not exactly uncalled for and as said, it didnt even go 1/10 way of Alex's 'shit your hands' or 'you clowns'.

Stop puting that 'nasty one' label on me just because I do not agree with your ideas and do not accept anecdotes as proof of anything. That's normal for anyone with an even somewhat scientific backgroud. It can also be taken as my personal opinion. How about you just live with it?

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What 'nasty comments' ?!?!

I made a total of ONE comment that may be considered somewhat nasty, snipping at superdad a while ago. Not exactly uncalled for and as said, it didnt even go 1/10 way of Alex's 'shit your hands' of 'you clowns'.

Stop puting that 'nasty one' label on me just because I do not agree with your ideas and do not accept anecdotes as proof of anything. That's normal for anyone with an even somewhat scientific backgroud. It can also be taken as my personal opinion. How about you just live with it?

 

Trithio,

 

Welcome to CA. There is a bit of a double standard around here. People around here like Alex and he is allowed to get away with personal attacks and insults that would get others banned, or at least flamed. His justification is that he defending himself or the subjectivist cause from attacks. This seems to be okay with everyone else so you had better get used to it because I don't see it changing any time soon.

 

KK

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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it didnt even go 1/10 way of Alex's 'shit your hands'

 

Please show me the post where I said that !

IF I had said that I would have been deservedly taken to task by many members, as well as by Admin.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Please show me the post where I said that !

IF I had said that I would have been deservedly taken to task by many members, as well as by Admin.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/musings-golden-earism-and-philips-golden-ears-challenge-19381/#post297313

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Hope you are happy now Alex. And apparently you were taken to task for that. The task was having a beer I guess.

Nothing mich wrong with that if you ask me. I think that's a funny saying. But the double standard is a bit deafening.

 

Double standard ? Read the unacceptable posts in that thread made by mayhem13 that were addressed to me, then read the attached reply I just made in a PM to Dennis, then tell me that Anthony didn't deserve the reply that he got !

Everybody has a breaking point, and I had reached my limit.Nevertheless, I immediately reported my reply to Admin for removal, and accepted any action that he wished to take.

 

Dennis

It appears that Chris did not remove the post after I reported my post to him. I would suggest that you check the previous posts in the thread by mayhem13, and you will see that I was severely provoked. NOBODY should have been subjected to the kind of shit that I was subjected to in that thread. It's also worth noting that Anthony has greatly toned down his personal attacks since then.

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Didn't you understand that I was extending an olive branch here ??

 

What 'nasty comments' ?!?!

 

OK, a small sample:

 

"The prevalent atitude on CA seems to be that science is useless when it comes to audio. Many people seem to be convinced that audio components are somehow build by wizards with sticks and clay. And particularly DBTs are hated with a passion worthy of a better cause.",

"The only stressful-DBT I can think of is one where the test subjects are those self proclaimed golden ears. They have something to prove and a lot to lose. Especially if they are TAS editors or such"

"Or how about this mature 'answer': laa la laaa laaaaa ."

"Was it that hard to post a link for everyone?" (how about just "thanks for the link")

"Nice anecdote. There are surely another million like this. Especially coming from insiders like him with big green stakes in the game"

"In any case, I so dont buy that lousy 'theory' about night & day differences that magically dissapear on DBTs".

"The circle goes round and round but in audioland it almost invariably ends up somewhere in the stoneage."

"Let me tell you this short anecdote. It begins with 'your worst nightmare is true'. And it abruptly ends there"

"Just hope the typical audiophile spends less time talking with skulls"

"Hopefully you at least have fun writing all those funny phrases."

"Do all objectivists get banned sooner or later here?!"

There's lots more but you get the idea...

 

 

I made a total of ONE comment that may be considered somewhat nasty, snipping at superdad a while ago. Not exactly uncalled for and

 

Oh, come on ! I don't remember Superdad(Alex) attacking you ?? It is not his style at all, unless seriously provoked.

 

 

Stop puting that 'nasty one' label on me just because I do not agree with your ideas and do not accept anecdotes as proof of anything.

 

I explained to you that I separate your beliefs/ideas, from the way you express them and behave in this forum. Is that not clear to you ?

You may also be confusing that with posts where I was correcting errors of fact.

 

 

How about you just live with it?

 

Sigh, another aggressive, unfriendly comment :(

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Welcome to CA. There is a bit of a double standard around here. People around here like Alex and he is allowed to get away with personal attacks and insults that would get others banned, or at least flamed. His justification is that he defending himself or the subjectivist cause from attacks.

 

KK,

 

No double standard, just no forum moderation. People only get banned when they cross way over an ill-defined line, AND somebody(s) complains to Chris C (who is the ONLY one who can ban anybody).

 

I hear the accusation that the 'subjectivists get away with murder, and the 'objectivists' are the poor victims.

 

Pleeease ! We've all seen that tactic too much in the political arena:

 

X launches nasty attack on opponent

Opponent attacks back

X complains to high heaven about being unfairly attacked

Attentive observers lose their lunch

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KK,

 

No double standard, just no forum moderation. People only get banned when they cross way over an ill-defined line, AND somebody(s) complains to Chris C (who is the ONLY one who can ban anybody).

 

I hear the accusation that the 'subjectivists get away with murder, and the 'objectivists' are the poor victims.

 

Pleeease ! We've all seen that tactic too much in the political arena:

 

X launches nasty attack on opponent

Opponent attacks back

X complains to high heaven about being unfairly attacked

Attentive observers lose their lunch

 

Then there are others that load the gun for others to fire.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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D'audio

Apart from you twisting the quotes (it was actually me who posted that link because he posted just a doc title that we had to google), I do not see anything 'nasty' in there. No 'shit', no name calling, no 'you fools'. Even the more lets say 'combative' comments and that lalalaaa were perfectly in tone with the discussions.

But thanks for the effort.

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Double standard ? Read the unacceptable posts in that thread made by mayhem13 that were addressed to me, then read the attached reply I just made in a PM to Dennis, then tell me that Anthony didn't deserve the reply that he got !

Everybody has a breaking point, and I had reached my limit.Nevertheless, I immediately reported my reply to Admin for removal, and accepted any action that he wished to take.

 

How'd I get dragged into your 'shit'? LOL

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D'audio

Apart from you twisting the quotes (it was actually me who posted that link because he posted just a doc title that we had to google), I do not see anything 'nasty' in there. No 'shit', no name calling, no 'you fools'. Even the more lets say 'combative' comments and that lalalaaa were perfectly in tone with the discussions.

 

But thanks for the effort.

 

On the other hand, I don't see a positive contribution in that list of quotes, along the lines of what you've said you were looking for here and haven't found: Any helpful suggestions of less expensive "pro" components that have been found in reliable testing to be as good as or better than more expensive "audiophile" stuff, for example? Any DBT listening tests to determine what level of jitter is audible to you or others, so we don't get sucked in by marketing? All your comments above were fair, but now that we've heard this and we know, what's next?

 

Folks like Alex (sandyk), Superdad, Anthony (mayhem13), Dennis - they've all made frequent positive contributions to the community. (And that's aside from the personal generosity of someone like Alex, which many of us have experienced for ourselves.) Want to see a better community here? Make it so.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Quite sure I was _not_ asking for formal, expensive tests. Just try it blind a few times.

Is that perfect or enough? No. And nothing is. But it's a huge step forward from a sighted test. Why not doing it? It doesnt even require much effort, just close your eyes and ask someone to switch the components for you.

 

Actually, I was replying to Dennis' precise suggestion about a minium standard blind test. This is the very thing you rejected and dismissed as being only "ancedotal" is it not?

 

By the way, a blind test is not automatically a huge step forward. I get you do not understand that. Sometimes blind tests are steps backwards, and more often, if poorly designed or executed, worthless. They can easily be a trap that gives back wrong answers. Just ask Pepsi.

 

But even given that, plenty of folks here have done such informal blind testing, including me. Quite enough to satisfy ourselves we really are hearing something different, but not enough to defend with rigor in a scientific sense. Not because we cannot do so, or do not have the education, training, and experience to do so. Merely because we don't have the time or finances to do the testing to the level that is necessary to produce conclusive proof - one way or another.

 

Others have done enough testing they believe they have reached that point, such as Dennis. And he may be exactly right. I don't find his proof rigorous enough to accept, and because that attitude frustrates him, these debates boil around endlessly. The same is true from Alex but on the far opposite end of the spectrum. I do not agree with many of Alex' claims. Mostly for the same reasons as others.

 

But I will grant that he is hearing something, repeatably and in particular circumstances. I just do not buy off on his conclusions as to why or exactly what he is hearing.

 

Part of any good researcher's makeup is the ability to live with the unknown until they find a good answer. And the ability to drop their theory - any theory - the moment evidence is available to falsify it, or to better explain the phenomena under investigation.

 

Personally, I find the level of research done by CA members, usually for their own edification, is far and above much of the nonsense you find at other places. And the research "techniques" inventive, to say the least. Which is a very good thing.

 

Examples?

 

One of the first questions I asked here was "why doesn't buffering just eliminate these USB issues? Why write an entirely new protocal to handle this?" It took a bit of work for me to really get an understanding of why there. Just simple reading.

 

Cables are a monsterous area - there is a lot of snake oil put out by unscrupulous cable manufactuers. Then there are companies that make cables that really do sound different. Based on what I spent time looking at, and the effort I invested in the stubject, I believe the answer to why those cables sound different is very complex. You are welcome to believe what you will.

 

Oh yeah- and one other thing about most people here that truly shows a scientific spirit - far more than you would ever find on that paragon of pseudoscience, the gas bag forum. People here are willing to wrong, at least most people. And when they are not, they can almost always be politely left with their ideas. Nobody says everyone *has* to agree on everything here.

 

A few people, generally very smart people, get the idea they will come on the system and "convert the heathen" to the one true point of view. Theirs of course. Silly task of course, and those people usually wind up frothing at the mouth in frustration if they cannot accept other people do not agree with them.

 

Even fewer come on the system with the intention if using it to start a crusade for their cause.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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KK,

 

No double standard, just no forum moderation. People only get banned when they cross way over an ill-defined line, AND somebody(s) complains to Chris C (who is the ONLY one who can ban anybody).

 

I hear the accusation that the 'subjectivists get away with murder, and the 'objectivists' are the poor victims.

 

Pleeease ! We've all seen that tactic too much in the political arena:

 

X launches nasty attack on opponent

Opponent attacks back

X complains to high heaven about being unfairly attacked

Attentive observers lose their lunch

 

DAudio, Trithio. Stop.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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Hi Trithio,

 

I'm an engineer (civil) and it was instilled in me at an early age to think for myself, which was reinforced time and time again during my 5 year university course. Later during my career I questioned everything simply because I was responsible for people's lives. I had to satisfy myself that what I was being told by other professionals and contractors and what I was doing myself made sense and was in fact correct. I have therefore always needed to understand how and why things work and I apply the same principals and attitude to my audio hobby.

 

I don't place myself in either the subjective (trust your ears only) or objective (bits are bits) camps and hopefully belong in the open mind camp and as such really appreciate the experiences and contributions of fellow members. I genuinely believe that bits are bits theory cannot adequately explain all phenomena we experience as we don't yet understand all the science and I also believe that as human beings we are also very open to the Placebo effect (bias) and therefore cannot simply trust our ears... they are after all attached to our brains. We need measurements as well.

 

So I am here to gather information and learn while enjoying the camaraderie of fellow members. There are some fabulous people here at CA.

 

I get neither information I value nor a sense of camaraderie from your posts, which, like many others, I find antagonistic and offensive. IMO you simply don't add value to this forum and for that reason I ignore your posts.

 

This is not a rant it is simply how I see things. Do yourself a favour and go back over your posts for the last two weeks and see if you can find an example of where you have genuinely attempted to educate or help others (without belittling them) or share information that was of value.

LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers

OFFICE : Mac Mini - Audirvana - Benchmark DAC1HDR - ADAM A7 Active Monitors

TRAVEL : MacBook Air - Dragonfly V1.2 DAC - Sennheiser HD 650

BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers

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On the other hand, I don't see a positive contribution in that list of quotes,

Let me get this straight. D'audio spent some serious time (thanks again) to compile a list of my 'nastiest' quotes and you are complaining that there is nothing good in there !? Are you freaking serious !? If someone like you, with a reputation of moderation and fairness, gives me THAT, then....

 

along the lines of what you've said you were looking for here and haven't found: Any helpful suggestions of less expensive "pro" components that have been found in reliable testing to be as good as or better than more expensive "audiophile" stuff, for example? Any DBT listening tests to determine what level of jitter is audible to you or others, so we don't get sucked in by marketing? All your comments above were fair, but now that we've heard this and we know, what's next?

 

Folks like Alex (sandyk), Superdad, Anthony (mayhem13), Dennis - they've all made frequent positive contributions to the community. (And that's aside from the personal generosity of someone like Alex, which many of us have experienced for ourselves.) Want to see a better community here? Make it so.

 

I'm here for a month or so and you complain that I did not contribute as much as those forever-members. Thats another 'fair' one.

And somehow you seem to 'forget' all the samples and links I posted. If only for that headfi thread with hundreds of test links. The DBTed thresholds for things like THN, S/N,...

Whatever. Looks like I'm wasting my time asking for any sort of fairness around here.

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I'm here for a month or so and you complain that I did not contribute as much as those forever-members. Thats another 'fair' one.

And somehow you seem to 'forget' all the samples and links I posted. If only for that headfi thread with hundreds of test links. The DBTed thresholds for things like THN, S/N,...

Whatever. Looks like I'm wasting my time asking for any sort of fairness around here.

 

You're right, I'm not being fair. I dunno, do you want to use that as an excuse to carry on arguing, or would you rather do more of that positive contribution stuff (which you correctly pointed out that I didn't credit you with before - my apologies)?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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By the way, a blind test is not automatically a huge step forward. I get you do not understand that. Sometimes blind tests are steps backwards, and more often, if poorly designed or executed, worthless. They can easily be a trap that gives back wrong answers. Just ask Pepsi.

 

-Paul

 

Coke did blind testing to arrive at New Coke, which bombed. Did Pepsi do one of these as well?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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You're right, I'm not being fair. I dunno, do you want to use that as an excuse to carry on arguing, or would you rather do more of that positive contribution stuff (which you correctly pointed out that I didn't credit you with before - my apologies)?

 

All ok.

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Hi Trithio,

 

I'm an engineer (civil) and it was instilled in me at an early age to think for myself, which was reinforced time and time again during my 5 year university course. Later during my career I questioned everything simply because I was responsible for people's lives. I had to satisfy myself that what I was being told by other professionals and contractors and what I was doing myself made sense and was in fact correct. I have therefore always needed to understand how and why things work and I apply the same principals and attitude to my audio hobby.

 

I don't place myself in either the subjective (trust your ears only) or objective (bits are bits) camps and hopefully belong in the open mind camp and as such really appreciate the experiences and contributions of fellow members. I genuinely believe that bits are bits theory cannot adequately explain all phenomena we experience as we don't yet understand all the science and I also believe that as human beings we are also very open to the Placebo effect (bias) and therefore cannot simply trust our ears... they are after all attached to our brains. We need measurements as well.

 

So I am here to gather information and learn while enjoying the camaraderie of fellow members. There are some fabulous people here at CA.

 

I get neither information I value nor a sense of camaraderie from your posts, which, like many others, I find antagonistic and offensive. IMO you simply don't add value to this forum and for that reason I ignore your posts.

 

This is not a rant it is simply how I see things. Do yourself a favour and go back over your posts for the last two weeks and see if you can find an example of where you have genuinely attempted to educate or help others (without belittling them) or share information that was of value.

 

You do ignore my posts on one hand and complain that I did not post useful things on the other. Isnt this an impossible contradiction? And yes there are enough of those useful posts from me. One needs to read them though.

Other than that, thanks for the long post and sincere view.

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Apart from you twisting the quotes (it was actually me who posted that link because he posted just a doc title that we had to google), I do not see anything 'nasty' in there. No 'shit', no name calling, no 'you fools'. Even the more lets say 'combative' comments and that lalalaaa were perfectly in tone with the discussions.

 

trithio,

 

I didn't have to spend much time scanning through your posting Activity, to assemble a longer list, then edited that down. I didn't twist anything you posted. Just copied and pasted. Yes, they were taken out of context. But, in context, some may look better, some worse. But, there is a pattern, a dismissal of others for the slightest things, a negative tone, that others have noticed and commented on.

 

Maybe it is not your intent to be so negitive, perhaps it is a language problem ? A cultural difference ? We know almost nothing about you, and that doesn't help.

 

But, the fact is that it is how you are percieved by many people. And that is a problem. Right ?

Do you have any desire to get along with other CA members ? Do you really not care how many CA people you antagonize ? Even someone like Jud, who has helped you, and defended you so much ?

 

You do seem to want to be accepted, but you must accept in return. Can you make an effort to get along with people you may not agree with, to make life better for you and everyone else here on CA ?

 

 

But thanks for the effort.

 

Are you truly thanking me (I'm not sure for what), or just being sarcastic again ?

 

 

Dave

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Coke did blind testing to arrive at New Coke, which bombed. Did Pepsi do one of these as well?

 

The "Pepsi Challenge" that started back in the mid 1970s. Pepsi setup stands in grocery stores, malls, and any other place, then offered passers by a sip from two unlabeled cups, one with Pepsi and one with Coca Cola. Almost overwhelmingly, testers chose Pepsi in these test.

 

Turns out that people will almost always choose the sweeter beverage in a "sip" test, even if they really prefer the less sweet beverage in daily life. Same factor works between coffee and sweetened hot chocolate too, even with people who absolutely abhor hot chocolate. ;)

 

Blind tests can lead to misleading results. The parallels in audio are not precise, bu interesting.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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The "Pepsi Challenge" that started back in the mid 1970s. Pepsi setup stands in grocery stores, malls, and any other place, then offered passers by a sip from two unlabeled cups, one with Pepsi and one with Coca Cola. Almost overwhelmingly, testers chose Pepsi in these test.

 

Turns out that people will almost always choose the sweeter beverage in a "sip" test, even if they really prefer the less sweet beverage in daily life. Same factor works between coffee and sweetened hot chocolate too, even with people who absolutely abhor hot chocolate. ;)

 

Blind tests can lead to misleading results. The parallels in audio are not precise, bu interesting.

 

-Paul

 

I would say that that choice is a bit more complex than simple taste preferences. Advertising, cool factor, peer-influences, mood. Plus, a crave for drinks may vary quite wildly during as little as 5 minutes: from water to whisky and all in between. Very hard to do a controlled test for such things.

And nowadays focus groups and other similar tests for new products are losing ground and are replaced with big data, crowds science and so on. A brave new world. Not so relevant for CA I'd say. If you apply that stuff to audio we all end up with youtube, mp3 and bose/beats :)

 

 

 

For Daudio

Yes I did thank you.

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The "Pepsi Challenge" that started back in the mid 1970s. Pepsi setup stands in grocery stores, malls, and any other place, then offered passers by a sip from two unlabeled cups, one with Pepsi and one with Coca Cola. Almost overwhelmingly, testers chose Pepsi in these test.

 

Turns out that people will almost always choose the sweeter beverage in a "sip" test, even if they really prefer the less sweet beverage in daily life. Same factor works between coffee and sweetened hot chocolate too, even with people who absolutely abhor hot chocolate. ;)

 

Blind tests can lead to misleading results. The parallels in audio are not precise, but interesting.

 

-Paul

 

BTW, Coke & Pepsi varies their sweetness levels depending on the ethnic group and climate:

 

White skin and closer to the North, less sweetness.

 

Dark skin and closer to the South, more sweetness.

 

I don't believe nobody already made a research like this regarding music taste (and other issues when listening to music). I hope there would be an 'universal truth' regarding music listening, but it's only a hope.

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

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