This I believe -

[jabbr]

To ask related questions: How many people who believe they've heard differences in their own or others' systems from such things as changing digital cables or software players are in what we'll call the "subjectivist" camp? How many who don't believe they've heard such differences are in the "objectivist" camp? In other words, to what extent are all of our discussions on these subjects a posteriori justifications of our own experiences? (Have to give a shoutout to Dennis here, who started out with the belief that he heard differences and had the curiosity and gumption to go further to try to determine whether those differences were real.)

 

Ha. I believe that there is a reason for each person's experiences. That is to say there is no strong line between "objectivist" and "subjectivist". I also believe that when a person is interested, that with education, listening can improve.

 

I also believe that some people gain genuine pleasure and consequently have a better listening experience when spending more $$$ on equipment -- this is dramatically different than my own experience as my wife gets much more pleasure when I spend less $$$ on equipment. Nor have I ever had a girlfriend that got turned on by fancy cables

 

That said, I do get pleasure in things like what I consider beautiful design, and so I might actually enjoy listening to equipment for which I understand the design and internals and which I consider eloquent.

 

That said I would say that the differences between certain software players can be objectively measured. I go to the trouble to purchase digital cables which meet or exceed specifications and while I can imagine that digital cables might impart a sound, that unless it has to do with different types of noise transmission, that this also may be due to defects in the equipment. That is to say that when/if such differences occur that they have an objectively measurable reason.

 

I have no interest in spending an iota of time considering if $1k ethernet cables sound any better than Belden mediatwist cat 6a which I am using exclusively for new cables/installations. If I knew that some type of audioquest ethernet cable were even in the room I would get ill and the entire test would be biased. Life is too short.

[Jud]

Nor have I ever had a girlfriend that got turned on by fancy AUDIO cables

 

 

Fixed that for you.

[trithio]

Pappy van Winkle or Hudson Baby, thank you.

A nice listing

http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/jhb/whisky/malts.html

 

I am a fan of the 50+ proof category. And smoky most of the time although not a must. The 57 Lafroaig is just lovely

 

And never go out without the mandatory malts chart

http://www.malts.com/index.php/Choosing-Whisky/A-World-of-Flavour/The-Single-Malt-Whisky-Flavour-Map

[wgscott]

I think Francis Collins has made the most compelling argument for the existence of DNA and cellular biology as being evidence deity for as opposed to positioned against religion. I

 

This is technically true. Unfortunately for Collins, it does not follow that it is a compelling argument.

[senorx]

I believe you're a troll

 

Prove it scientifically.

[wgscott]

Just to bring this thing full-circle, here is Richard Dawkins streaming DSD over airplay in front of his Reef Tank:

 

[jabbr]

This is technically true. Unfortunately for Collins, it does not follow that it is a compelling argument.

 

*You* don't need to better understand science nor do you need to read his book to find beauty in DNA/chromosomes/genetics. On there other hand there are wide swaths of the country where people are being tought that DNA and genetics are an outright assault on their faith. Hopefully his argument is compelling to at the very least one poor kid who is contemplating going to college and starting a career.

[petaluma]

Just to bring this thing full-circle, here is Richard Dawkins streaming DSD over airplay in front of his Reef Tank:

 

 

That's great! The only thing left to complete the picture is him spinning on his 10K CF bike trainer...

[wgscott]

*You* don't need to better understand science nor do you need to read his book to find beauty in DNA/chromosomes/genetics. On there other hand there are wide swaths of the country where people are being tought that DNA and genetics are an outright assault on their faith. Hopefully his argument is compelling to at the very least one poor kid who is contemplating going to college and starting a career.

 

 

I fully agree. RNA is The Way, The Truth and The Light. No one comes unto Thee but via a 2'-OH.

 

[trithio]

This is technically true. Unfortunately for Collins, it does not follow that it is a compelling argument.

 

I found this hypothesis interesting http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml. Some pretty good testing already done. And it's a nice little documentary, should be available online. No flashy video effects and dramatics either, which is quite rare nowadays.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

That's how it works. Measurements are often/usually indirect.

 

Yes measurements are often indirect but no, it often doesnt work ie it is far from ideal. If you have a defined outcome the ideal is to have a direct measurement of that outcome. I am very familiar with all the examples you gave and am very much aware of the difficult process of having to use things like biomarkers,imaging tests, functional tests (imaging or otherwise) and the like instead of the real thing. Often there is poor correlation and concordance let alone issues of causality. A lot of work has to go into establishing links between surrogates and the real thing....cardiologists are still arguing about LDL cholesterol as a predictor of heart disease and this is after decades of worlwide research. Currently, we simply do not have any direct or valid measure or gold standard valdated surrogate value for complex musical perceptions. If you know differently I would be sincerely pleased to learn of specific references.

 

 

 

Correlates should never be assumed to imply a causal relationship: that would be a rookie mistake. Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Um yes that is what I said. So I agree :-)

[Daudio]

Applied to audiophilia, I wonder if we all don't have some tacit metaphysical convictions operating that have some effect on our positions, approaches, orientations toward how to go about getting great sounding music from a system? A problem would emerge if these perhaps foundational tacit convictions were both inflexible and inarticulate (not named), and were in some meaningful sense exaggerated? This, it seems to me, could cause some intransigence that would not allow genuine dialogue to emerge.

 

I think you are quite right about this. For some time now I have noticed that those who reject 'subjective' audio observations, seem to have a deep seated distrust of humanitys ability's and motivations. Notice how many objectivists have such a strong distrust and distaste for audio manufactures in addition to their dismissal of 'subjective' observations and perceptions.

 

Some people view all of humanity, including themselves, as suspect, mendacious, weak, impure, corrupt, evil, unworthy of trust. This mindset manifests in religion, politics, personal relations, and yes, even hobbies. It is usually deeply embedded in the individual psyche, and may, or may not be recognized consciously. I suspect that it is mostly due to poor life experience, but could have a genetic basis too. In extremis, it can be pathological.

 

Consider trithio's posts: he rejects any listener observations, lumping them all into the term 'anecdotes' which just drips with disdain. His hatred and distrust of audio companies is obvious. He trusts the 'clean', 'scientific', 'objective' DBT unquestionably, almost as a talisman against evil. A powerful spell to ward off the stress of all the confusing, inconsistent, erroneous, self-serving, crazy stuff that comes from impure humanity.

 

I see less evidence for the other end of the spectrum here (perhaps Teresa ?), as I perceive most of the rest of the CA members as entertaining technical tests as appropriate, and judging subjective observations with a number of factors to integrate a balenced view of equipment and audio in general.

 

 

In other words, to what extent are all of our discussions on these subjects a posteriori justifications of our own experiences?

 

I think I have seen plenty of evidence of audio folks allowing their philosophical orientations to ignore, suppress, invent,or even override their own personal audio perceptions. 'esldude' is a bit of an extreme example, but lots of other examples have been posted here on CA.

[trithio]

.

 

Consider trithio's posts: he rejects any listener observations, lumping them all into the term 'anecdotes' which just drips with disdain. His hatred and distrust of audio companies is obvious. He trusts the 'clean', 'scientific', 'objective' DBT unquestionably, almost as a talisman against evil. A powerful spell to ward off the stress of all the confusing, inconsistent, erroneous, self-serving, crazy stuff that comes from impure humanity.

.

 

Oh my I'm the devil .

The most extremist part of my attitude is however your exagerated description of it. Never talked about that 'DBT ideal' that you imply. And anecdotes could be very fun and entertaining. Only issue, they are not _data_. And assuming that 'disdain' exists at all, it is surely not for the anecdotes.

You are of course free to have your own opinion about my words. Hope you chose the most enjoyable for yourself.

[christopher3393]

Just to bring this thing full-circle, here is Richard Dawkins streaming DSD over airplay in front of his Reef Tank:

 

 

[sbgk]

It was written that come the end times every audio forum in the world will become bogged down in DBT threads and cats will sleep with dogs and meteors will fill the sky, the earth will breath fire.

[Jud]

This is technically true. Unfortunately for Collins, it does not follow that it is a compelling argument.

 

Or, in just slightly more detail:

 

- "Evolution is the reason for species" is more compelling than "Evolution is impossible (subtext: therefore Deity)," since there is a sh*tload of evidence, amounting to conclusive proof, for the former.

 

- "Deity uses evolution to make species" is more compelling than "Evolution is impossible," simply because the latter has been conclusively proved wrong.

 

- "Deity uses evolution to make species" is not particularly compelling as a matter of science, because "Evolution is the reason for species" is all that's necessary; Deity's just an add-on.

[sbgk]

Prove it scientifically.

 

trolling is more an indication of an underlying personality defect so would be tested by applying psychological tests, is psychology a science ?

 

Would involve collecting evidence and seeing if they match up to the profile of a troll. Unfortunately, I've just got a few samples, so need more to be sure.

 

Anyway, I said I believe you are a troll, not that you are a troll.

[petaluma]

I think you are quite right about this. For some time now I have noticed that those who reject 'subjective' audio observations, seem to have a deep seated distrust of humanitys ability's and motivations. Notice how many objectivists have such a strong distrust and distaste for audio manufactures in addition to their dismissal of 'subjective' observations and perceptions.

 

Some people view all of humanity, including themselves, as suspect, mendacious, weak, impure, corrupt, evil, unworthy of trust. This mindset manifests in religion, politics, personal relations, and yes, even hobbies. It is usually deeply embedded in the individual psyche, and may, or may not be recognized consciously. I suspect that it is mostly due to poor life experience, but could have a genetic basis too. In extremis, it can be pathological.

 

Consider trithio's posts: he rejects any listener observations, lumping them all into the term 'anecdotes' which just drips with disdain. His hatred and distrust of audio companies is obvious. He trusts the 'clean', 'scientific', 'objective' DBT unquestionably, almost as a talisman against evil. A powerful spell to ward off the stress of all the confusing, inconsistent, erroneous, self-serving, crazy stuff that comes from impure humanity.

 

I see less evidence for the other end of the spectrum here (perhaps Teresa ?), as I perceive most of the rest of the CA members as entertaining technical tests as appropriate, and judging subjective observations with a number of factors to integrate a balenced view of equipment and audio in general.

 

 

 

 

I think I have seen plenty of evidence of audio folks allowing their philosophical orientations to ignore, suppress, invent,or even override their own personal audio perceptions. 'esldude' is a bit of an extreme example, but lots of other examples have been posted here on CA.

 

daudio, It seems to me that, and its what you have stated, that some of the threads on the site are a metaphor for society in general. Some of the threads look, at a 20 thousand foot level, just like comments sections on the major news sites. It very quickly degenerates into non useful discourse from both sides of the spectrum. A few try to steer the ship back on course but more often than not that does not occur. Hopefully the silent majority do make decisions without fanfare that rule the day in the audio world and the world in general. Although I do not hold out a lot of hope for that.

[petaluma]

Hopefully the silent majority do make decisions without fanfare that rule the day in the audio world and the world in general. Although I do not hold out a lot of hope for that.

 

Just as soon as I go all pessimistic about the world in general South Carolina goes and does something good...

 

Famed SC civil rights protesters have convictions erased

 

Bravo

[Daudio]

The most extremist part of my attitude is however your exagerated description of it.

 

Go back and read your own posts. Perhaps a little distance will help you see yourself more clearly.

 

Nothing really extreme or exaggerated about my description, through my extrapolation of the causes is my informed opinion (can you tell the difference ?).

[christopher3393]

daudio, It seems to me that, and its what you have stated, that some of the threads on the site are a metaphor for society in general. Some of the threads look, at a 20 thousand foot level, just like comments sections on the major news sites. It very quickly degenerates into non useful discourse from both sides of the spectrum. A few try to steer the ship back on course but more often than not that does not occur. Hopefully the silent majority do make decisions without fanfare that rule the day in the audio world and the world in general. Although I do not hold out a lot of hope for that.

 

Well put.

[senorx]

trolling is more an indication of an underlying personality defect so would be tested by applying psychological tests, is psychology a science ?

 

Would involve collecting evidence and seeing if they match up to the profile of a troll. Unfortunately, I've just got a few samples, so need more to be sure.

 

Anyway, I said I believe you are a troll, not that you are a troll.

 

I believe you take yourself far too seriously and lack a sense of humor.

[sbgk]

I believe you take yourself far too seriously and lack a sense of humor.

 

let's look at what happened shall we

 

I posted

 

Originally Posted by sbgk

I look forward to being able to go into a dealer showroom, put on a brain sensor cap and have the brainwaves analysed so that the best listening experience can be identified. Perhaps a measure of serotonin will be done at the same time.

 

Maybe in the future, when all is digital, the system will be able to be tailored to produce the best listening experience according to the brain wave measurements.

 

Mind you, maybe people will find it's the purchase of the new component that gives them the most pleasure.

 

then you posted

 

"Why would you need this? Don't you trust your ears?"

 

then I posted

 

"I believe you are a troll"

 

then you posted

 

"Prove it scientifically"

 

My first post was an attempt at humour, your response was an attempt at humour based on you trying to be smart at my expense. Then you didn't like my reply saying I believe you are a troll, which was in context of the thread which is what do people believe in and it was a little dig back at you.

 

So I put it to you that you are the humourless, unimaginative troll like person who wants to give it out, but can't take it.

 

Prove I'm wrong (scientifically).

[senorx]

let's look at what happened shall we

 

I posted

 

Originally Posted by sbgk

I look forward to being able to go into a dealer showroom, put on a brain sensor cap and have the brainwaves analysed so that the best listening experience can be identified. Perhaps a measure of serotonin will be done at the same time.

 

Maybe in the future, when all is digital, the system will be able to be tailored to produce the best listening experience according to the brain wave measurements.

 

Mind you, maybe people will find it's the purchase of the new component that gives them the most pleasure.

 

then you posted

 

"Why would you need this? Don't you trust your ears?"

 

then I posted

 

"I believe you are a troll"

 

then you posted

 

"Prove it scientifically"

 

My first post was an attempt at humour, your response was an attempt at humour based on you trying to be smart at my expense. Then you didn't like my reply saying I believe you are a troll, which was in context of the thread which is what do people believe in and it was a little dig back at you.

 

So I put it to you that you are the humourless, unimaginative troll like person who wants to give it out, but can't take it.

 

Prove I'm wrong (scientifically).

 

That would be superfluous, as you just did.

[alfe]

let's look at what happened shall we

 

I posted

 

Originally Posted by sbgk

I look forward to being able to go into a dealer showroom, put on a brain sensor cap and have the brainwaves analysed so that the best listening experience can be identified. Perhaps a measure of serotonin will be done at the same time.

 

Maybe in the future, when all is digital, the system will be able to be tailored to produce the best listening experience according to the brain wave measurements.

 

Mind you, maybe people will find it's the purchase of the new component that gives them the most pleasure.

 

then you posted

 

"Why would you need this? Don't you trust your ears?"

 

then I posted

 

"I believe you are a troll"

 

then you posted

 

"Prove it scientifically"

 

My first post was an attempt at humour, your response was an attempt at humour based on you trying to be smart at my expense. Then you didn't like my reply saying I believe you are a troll, which was in context of the thread which is what do people believe in and it was a little dig back at you.

 

So I put it to you that you are the humourless, unimaginative troll like person who wants to give it out, but can't take it.

 

Prove I'm wrong (scientifically).

 

 

Science use monkeys,careful guys:)