Computer Audio vs Analogue

[spdif-usb]

Way back in 2001, Silicon Chip magazine published their LP Doctor project which was able to declick records automatically while playing them via it's inbuilt Phono Preamp, or allow them to be saved as declipped .wav files via a soundcard.

 

Silicon Chip Online - LP Doctor

I know. It just doesn't work for me TBH.

[Jud]

Actually people in a band don't know what they sound like either. They know it from their perspective right over the instrument they play. The sound of the entire group a short distance away....no one in the group knows. They would know the fun had of course.

 

The dealer I bought nearly all my first high end system from told me the members of the Philadelphia Orchestra had no idea how the ensemble should sound in a recording. Several were his customers. (He had a subscription and attended many of their concerts each year.)

[sandyk]

I know. It just doesn't work for me TBH.

 

I preferred to use Sound Forge "copy and paste" to replace small damaged sections, combined with the "" Pencil tool" to correct obvious overshoots.

[StephenJK]

Nothing matters.

[ted_b]

Chris,

 

Last post. As much as I like your site, it's not something for the common man. It's become a private playground for people who seem to think that whatever their interest is in any topic is the only one that matters.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I find it to be a very open discussion forum. Yes, there are dogmas and schools of thought, but that happens anywhere there is a focus on one hobby, especially a somewhat technical one. Please don't go to Audio Asylum, that place is a war zone compared to here. Maybe just step away for a few days and you'll chill down over whatever is eating at you (which I am not doubting is real, and likely some rude comment or narcissistic post).

[spdif-usb]

I preferred to use Sound Forge "copy and paste" to replace small damaged sections, combined with the "" Pencil tool" to correct obvious overshoots.

In spectrogram view, iZotope RX 3 Advanced allows you to easily zoom in on clicks that can be hard to find, but that can nevertheless be heard by listening through headphones. ClickRepair ( Resurrect your old recordings | Audio Restoration | Brian Davies ) in automatic mode can kill transients even if mild settings are used, and, by lining up the untouched version of a track with the differences between it and the output of automatic ClickRepair (using DiffMaker to save these differences to a separate track) it becomes possible to accelerate workflow on some occasions because then both the clicks and the transients are all a tad easier to see.

[bluesman]

Actually people in a band don't know what they sound like either. They know it from their perspective right over the instrument they play. The sound of the entire group a short distance away....no one in the group knows. They would know the fun had of course.

Having played my first pro gig in 1959 and joined Local 77 of the AFM in 1969, I've played in my share of bands, concerts and sessions. We actually do know what we sound like, although you're correct that the stage perspective is not the same as the audience perspective. We know the quality of the instruments, ambiance, performance, etc blindfolded, both when playing and when listening.

 

Most professional musicians (myself included) are able to ignore technical factors and hear through the recording and equipment to "recreate" the performance despite suboptimal reproduction. That doesn't mean that we don't know what we sound like.

[Jud]

Having played my first pro gig in 1959 and joined Local 77 of the AFM in 1969, I've played in my share of bands, concerts and sessions. We actually do know what we sound like, although you're correct that the stage perspective is not the same as the audience perspective. We know the quality of the instruments, ambiance, performance, etc blindfolded, both when playing and when listening.

 

Most professional musicians (myself included) are able to ignore technical factors and hear through the recording and equipment to "recreate" the performance despite suboptimal reproduction. That doesn't mean that we don't know what we sound like.

 

This is one of those well worn discussions. :-)

 

I don't know whether you have played in a full orchestra, but if not, could you imagine that someone sitting in the midst of the trombones might not know what the ensemble sounds like out in the hall or in a recording?

 

 

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[spdif-usb]

Having played my first pro gig in 1959 and joined Local 77 of the AFM in 1969, I've played in my share of bands, concerts and sessions. We actually do know what we sound like, although you're correct that the stage perspective is not the same as the audience perspective. We know the quality of the instruments, ambiance, performance, etc blindfolded, both when playing and when listening.

 

Most professional musicians (myself included) are able to ignore technical factors and hear through the recording and equipment to "recreate" the performance despite suboptimal reproduction. That doesn't mean that we don't know what we sound like.

My cook doesn't know what he tastes like. I decided we need to cook him first... J/K.

[gstanley75]

I listen to almost every format. Telling The difference in any compressed format or CD is easy. Differences between high res digital PCM, DSD and vinyl records is more challenging in short bursts but I do find certain formats seem more involving in the following order:

1. Vinyl

2. DSD 64, 128, 257

3. 385/24 DXD

3. 192/24 PCM

4. 96/24 PCM

5. 48/24 PCM

6. 44.1/16

7. Dirty vinyl

 

Now having said that, let me also say there is more discernible difference between producers and recordings than all the differences between formats, so these days I spend more time reading music reviews and listening to samples so I can buy well recorded music by gifted artists. And I must say there are a lot of really bad performances and recordings. I have over 5000 recordings and only about 30 of them have that "you are there" feel. But I keep it up because there is a real rush when you find those rate gems and that is more fun than worrying over formats.

[Audio_ELF]

Having played my first pro gig in 1959 and joined Local 77 of the AFM in 1969, I've played in my share of bands, concerts and sessions. We actually do know what we sound like, although you're correct that the stage perspective is not the same as the audience perspective. We know the quality of the instruments, ambiance, performance, etc blindfolded, both when playing and when listening.

 

Most professional musicians (myself included) are able to ignore technical factors and hear through the recording and equipment to "recreate" the performance despite suboptimal reproduction. That doesn't mean that we don't know what we sound like.

This is one of those well worn discussions. :-)

 

I don't know whether you have played in a full orchestra, but if not, could you imagine that someone sitting in the midst of the trombones might not know what the ensemble sounds like out in the hall or in a recording?

I'm not sure if you took it as one, but I don't think the comment was intended as an insult.

 

But as Jud comments, in a full orchestra by its very nature, the individual musicians hear a distorted (and I use that word advisedly) view of the music as they will hear more of what is close to them. Thats the whole reason the conductor exists: to pull together disparate elements of the orchestra.

 

Eloise

[bluesman]

I don't know whether you have played in a full orchestra, but if not, could you imagine that someone sitting in the midst of the trombones might not know what the ensemble sounds like out in the hall or in a recording?

I've played in symphony orchestras, 17 piece jazz bands, and ensembles of many kinds in many sizes. While those on the stage or in the pit don't hear what the audience hears, we have the unique experience of hearing both the stage sound and the sound of the recorded performance when it's played back. We also get to compare what it sounds like to the audience (since we do attend concerts, ballets, shows etc in the venues in which we play performed by our friends and colleagues) with what it sounds like on stage.

 

Did you ever wonder why some bands swing no matter what the tune, but others don't seem to have that fire despite excellent technical playing? or why some orchestras have a smoothness and coherence to their performances that others seem to lack? A large part of this is the ability of the musicians to know how what they're playing and how they play it will affect the performance as the audience hears it. Surely none of you believes that all the trumpet players in Count Basie's band just happened to play at exactly the same volumes by coincidence, or that the multiple guitar players in the Tonight Show orchestra just happen to play notes, chords and rhythms that do not clash with each other......every time on every tune. Good, sensitive players who care about the music first absolutely know how our playing contributes to and affects what the audience hears. They (and, hopefully, I) know and care as much (or more) about how the music sounds as they do about their solos.

[4est]

This appears to be the crux...

In general I have found musicians(mostly classical in my case) listen to the performance more than the tonality.

While those on the stage or in the pit don't hear what the audience hears, we have the unique experience of hearing both the stage sound and the sound of the recorded performance when it's played back.

[gmgraves]

Having played my first pro gig in 1959 and joined Local 77 of the AFM in 1969, I've played in my share of bands, concerts and sessions. We actually do know what we sound like, although you're correct that the stage perspective is not the same as the audience perspective. We know the quality of the instruments, ambiance, performance, etc blindfolded, both when playing and when listening.

 

Most professional musicians (myself included) are able to ignore technical factors and hear through the recording and equipment to "recreate" the performance despite suboptimal reproduction. That doesn't mean that we don't know what we sound like.

 

 

I've noticed this most of my recording life. I know several symphony orchestra conductors, a number of band leaders, and quite a few musicians and I am constantly amazed and bemused by the fact that most of them don't have even mid-fi level stereo systems! One fairly well known symphony conductor that I used to know had a big ghetto blaster to listen to music through. Even though I recorded using good microphones (Sony C-37Ps, C-500s, and Neumann U-87s among others) on half track, 15 ips tape, all this conductor wanted were cassettes of the performance, but I have three seasons worth of the masters!) His boom-box sounded simply dreadful. He didn't care. Neither do most musicians, it seems. Many have told me that they can hear what they want to hear about a performance on an AM table radio!

[Jud]

I've played in symphony orchestras, 17 piece jazz bands, and ensembles of many kinds in many sizes. While those on the stage or in the pit don't hear what the audience hears, we have the unique experience of hearing both the stage sound and the sound of the recorded performance when it's played back. We also get to compare what it sounds like to the audience (since we do attend concerts, ballets, shows etc in the venues in which we play performed by our friends and colleagues) with what it sounds like on stage.

 

Did you ever wonder why some bands swing no matter what the tune, but others don't seem to have that fire despite excellent technical playing? or why some orchestras have a smoothness and coherence to their performances that others seem to lack? A large part of this is the ability of the musicians to know how what they're playing and how they play it will affect the performance as the audience hears it. Surely none of you believes that all the trumpet players in Count Basie's band just happened to play at exactly the same volumes by coincidence, or that the multiple guitar players in the Tonight Show orchestra just happen to play notes, chords and rhythms that do not clash with each other......every time on every tune. Good, sensitive players who care about the music first absolutely know how our playing contributes to and affects what the audience hears. They (and, hopefully, I) know and care as much (or more) about how the music sounds as they do about their solos.

 

I've bolded the only point I was making. :-) I don't disagree with the rest of what you say at all.

[Biku Toru]

... Many have told me that they can hear what they want to hear about a performance on an AM table radio!

 

I think, that's because music is THE GOD and you do not listen to it just with your ears, you listen to it with your heart.

 

All this equipment, digital or analog is nice, but I'd listened to a very bad reception on my dad's radio, when I was young, and enjoyed it all the same.

It seems lots of people here making their equipment their God. Like so many religions of the past and present, they loose what it is all about.

I do feel I do not belong here and not an audiophile, because I just love music in any form, format or place.

[Raym87]

I think, that's because music is THE GOD and you do not listen to it just with your ears, you listen to it with your heart.

 

All this equipment, digital or analog is nice, but I'd listened to a very bad reception on my dad's radio, when I was young, and enjoyed it all the same.

It seems lots of people here making their equipment their God. Like so many religions of the past and present, they loose what it is all about.

I do feel I do not belong here and not an audiophile, because I just love music in any form, format or place.

Many a true word.......

[spdif-usb]

I think, that's because music is THE GOD and you do not listen to it just with your ears, you listen to it with your heart.

 

All this equipment, digital or analog is nice, but I'd listened to a very bad reception on my dad's radio, when I was young, and enjoyed it all the same.

It seems lots of people here making their equipment their God. Like so many religions of the past and present, they loose what it is all about.

I do feel I do not belong here and not an audiophile, because I just love music in any form, format or place.

Most people on here, myself included, don't use High End equipment. They worry about the sound of their USB cables and solid state disks, but not about the sound of the isolation transformers that separate their computers from their DACs, while, on top of that, things like dither or the ringing artifacts caused by a filter are frequently considered taboo.

[bluesman]

I know several symphony orchestra conductors, a number of band leaders, and quite a few musicians and I am constantly amazed and bemused by the fact that most of them don't have even mid-fi level stereo systems!

I don't think that means they wouldn't prefer great systems, all other things being equal. In my experience, it usually means only that they don't make enough money to be comfortable spending a lot on a sound system. It's appalling how little most professional musicians make and how hard they have to work to earn a living. Most play in multiple groups and teach. Many also work in music stores or other "day gigs".

 

We went to Fork's Drum Closet in Nashville several years ago because my son the drummer wanted to see it. The sales guy who took care of us was a very nice man who just happened to be between tours - we saw him on TV the next week backing a Grammy winner. Later, while walking down Broadway, I heard an amazing pedal steel guitar player coming from a dive bar. I went in, listened to the set, then introduced myself and talked with him for quite a while. He turned out to be Tommy Hannum, who was Ricky Van Shelton's bandleader.

 

And because we do enjoy the music regardless of the venue or system, an expensive system is simply not worth the cost to most. The conductors and serious musicians I know who can afford it all have fine systems. Eugene Ormandy and many other well known musical figures in town were long-time clients of my dealer of 30 years (Danby Radio in Philly, sadly now long gone) - they all have / had fine systems, but they could afford it.

[NOMBEDES]

I don't think that means they wouldn't prefer great systems, all other things being equal. In my experience, it usually means only that they don't make enough money to be comfortable spending a lot on a sound system. It's appalling how little most professional musicians make and how hard they have to work to earn a living. Most play in multiple groups and teach. Many also work in music stores or other "day gigs".

 

We went to Fork's Drum Closet in Nashville several years ago because my son the drummer wanted to see it. The sales guy who took care of us was a very nice man who just happened to be between tours - we saw him on TV the next week backing a Grammy winner. Later, while walking down Broadway, I heard an amazing pedal steel guitar player coming from a dive bar. I went in, listened to the set, then introduced myself and talked with him for quite a while. He turned out to be Tommy Hannum, who was Ricky Van Shelton's bandleader.

 

And because we do enjoy the music regardless of the venue or system, an expensive system is simply not worth the cost to most. The conductors and serious musicians I know who can afford it all have fine systems. Eugene Ormandy and many other well known musical figures in town were long-time clients of my dealer of 30 years (Danby Radio in Philly, sadly now long gone) - they all have / had fine systems, but they could afford it.

 

 

 

And we see in the press that the streaming music model means less money for the musicians. Here in Tucson we often have events to support our local musicians who have financial problems due to illness or other issues. Sometimes I wonder if the current hardships in the music industry will result in a 13th C. model of paying a band with chickens and beets.

[Audio_ELF]

I don't think that means they wouldn't prefer great systems, all other things being equal. In my experience, it usually means only that they don't make enough money to be comfortable spending a lot on a sound system. It's appalling how little most professional musicians make and how hard they have to work to earn a living. Most play in multiple groups and teach. Many also work in music stores or other "day gigs".

With respect bluesman ... why should musicians be any different to the majority of us? Having to work hard to earn a living. They should be paid a reasonable wage (by which I mean working a 40 hour week should provide a living wage) but there is no reason they should be head and shoulders above the general population.

 

Yes there are those in the music industry who earn mega-buck ... but then there are those in ever section of society / employment who earn mega-bucks.

 

Please excuse me if I read your comments wrongly ... but there did appear to be an element suggesting that as a musician you are entitled to something more than the general population.

 

Eloise

[Paul R]

With respect bluesman ... why should musicians be any different to the majority of us? Having to work hard to earn a living. They should be paid a reasonable wage (by which I mean working a 40 hour week should provide a living wage) but there is no reason they should be head and shoulders above the general population.

 

Yes there are those in the music industry who earn mega-buck ... but then there are those in ever section of society / employment who earn mega-bucks.

 

Please excuse me if I read your comments wrongly ... but there did appear to be an element suggesting that as a musician you are entitled to something more than the general population.

 

Eloise

 

+1

 

Thanks for posting that Eloise. -Paul

[Jud]

With respect bluesman ... why should musicians be any different to the majority of us? Having to work hard to earn a living. They should be paid a reasonable wage (by which I mean working a 40 hour week should provide a living wage)

 

Eloise

 

He mentioned that many musicians in his experience, even those working for well known artists, needed second jobs, i.e., music did not provide a living wage. As for a 40 hour week - is there a venue you know of paying musicians to do 8 hours of shows per day for 5 days each week, and do you know of a musician with that level of endurance?

 

 

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[bdiament]

A musician, if they're going to be any good, must spend a great deal of unpaid time, continually honing their craft. Unlike other jobs, a player can't just show up for a gig and start performing. The good ones are constantly practicing their craft in the time between gigs.

 

I look at it this way: If the artist can't afford to create their art, I lose. I want them to be well remunerated for all they give to me and to others for whom music (and all art) is important.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[bluesman]

With respect bluesman ... why should musicians be any different to the majority of us? Having to work hard to earn a living. They should be paid a reasonable wage (by which I mean working a 40 hour week should provide a living wage) but there is no reason they should be head and shoulders above the general population.

 

Yes there are those in the music industry who earn mega-buck ... but then there are those in ever section of society / employment who earn mega-bucks.

 

Please excuse me if I read your comments wrongly ... but there did appear to be an element suggesting that as a musician you are entitled to something more than the general population.

 

Eloise

I love you dearly, Eloise - but you gotta be kidding. All I said is that most musicians, even those in name bands and orchestras (like the Philadelphia Orchestra, with which I'm more than a bit familiar) don't make enough for them to justify to themselves spending major money on an audio system. Part of the reason is that most professional musicians can "hear" what we want to hear in the music through systems of less than stellar specification. But I assure you that it's a matter of cost for many. The impression given in a post above that musicians don't care about their systems leaves out the qualifier - they don't care enough to spend $10k+, even though they'd certainly be happy to have them.

 

Remember that they have to buy, insure and maintain some pretty expensive instruments, and that's where their money goes first. I don't have to remind you of the value and cost of a fine violin, but you may not realize that even the lowly saxophone is a 5 figure exercise. Price a good trumpet or flute. A Benedetto or D'Angelico guitar can run $35k+, and even a Dumble amplifier runs $10k. When you make less than $100k / year, there's little room in the budget for that plus high end audio. Sure it's deductible, but that's only a discount equal to the marginal tax bracket - it's not free.

 

I'm not asking for pity for musicians - I agree with you completely. But the concept that musicians don't care about their audio systems (along with the suggestion that they don't know how to listen) is simply not valid. Work is good for the soul - and you can't play the blues without suffering.......

 

Best regards -

 

David