Does SSD sound better than Hard Disk?

[btlancaster24]

What do Amarra, iTunes, hard drives, SSDs, different coaxial digital cables and different toslink optical cables all have in common?

 

They can each be a part of a bit perfect computer music system, transfer bit perfect data and yet result in different SQ. Imagine that, same bit perfect data, same zeros and ones, but different sounds.

 

Maybe the Amarra skeptics would disappear if Amarra was only $100 or better yet, free. Then all skeptics that have Mac computers would use Amarra and never look back.

 

On to the next debate.

 

What's better with Amarra vs Pure Music 2.0.4?

[btlancaster24]

On all my systems - Win7. Snow Leopard and Linx. No ifs or buts. Plus it's dead quiet. I do not not know why it sounds better.

And it's getting cheaper by the month....and what is $400 or so in audioland? drop in the bucket.

Cheerio

A

Who has the best price/quality? My late '13 iMac (Yosemite 10.10.2) has 250gb flash storage/SSD. I'm looking for a good backup drive and possible small quality server with SSD. My music collection is currently only 47.8GB so I don't need much space as slow as I collect music. I'm just getting into CA. My DAC is the Dragonfly 1.2 w/ Pure Music 2.0.4 and Klipsch 2.1 pro media speakers. But it's my main source for AIFF / internet radio listening currently. I tried an Audioquest cinnamon ethernet cable from my modem to my Airport extreme but debating on returning it to amazon unless there's a more appropriate use to make it worth keeping. Looking for advice and suggestions. Thanks.

[btlancaster24]

Gang,

 

It makes a huge difference. I think it is primarily in timing. Being that everything I play is bit true, it seems that there must be something with timing.

 

Everycomputer I have now has an SSD.

 

BUT NOTE! Not all the SSD's are created equal. Some are only 2x the speed of spinning disks. Some like the SuperTalent UltraDrive or the OCZ Vertex are more like 10x the speed.

 

With operating systems that swap virtual memory constantly the speed difference can make a huge difference in sound.

 

Not to mention the load on the power supply which reduces airborne noise and cable noise. SSD drives can eat about 1/10 the juice that a rotating unit will eat.

 

Thanks

Gordon

 

Where to buy for external use? (SuperTalent UltraDrive or the OCZ Vertex) Are they better than OWC? How do they compare to internal flash storage in iMacs?

[Rezseeker]

This paragraph strikes a sympathetic cord with me. I have what most of friends and colleagues think is an exotic system although at slightly less than $10,000 others might consider it just above entry level. At parties people want to hear it, expecting something magical and mind-blowing and I invariably say no. With all the background noise going on, conversations, cooking and drinking I know it would be a complete waste of time so I steer them onto other topics. My system can indeed sound spectacular with dynamic material, but what invariably grabs my attention is the subtleties that most uneducated listeners would miss. The skin reverberation of a drum; the rich overtones of a grand piano chord; the leading edge of a guitar note; the sound of a singer's mouth. These things aren't what non-audiophiles expect to hear; they just want loud and bassy. I guess it's a bit like expensive wines and single malts. It's the complexity and subtlety that makes them stand out from the dross, and so it is with good musical reproduction. A system that can unravel the threads of the music and provide the subtle cues and emotion of a live performance is the one that will keep you engrossed for years to come.

 

Amen. Just threw a small party and basically turned the system so low it might as well have been off.

Next time I throw a party, I'll rent a public address system.

On a side note, it's also kinda funny reading equipment reviews by consumers whose only experience with the gear is in a badly setup electronics shop - not a measure of whether you'll be smiling or gritting your teeth after a few continuous hours listening to the same gear at home.

[yay101]

Just use Linux. Run the entire OS and all your music from ram. From the comments in this thread so far from what i shall call "the believers" that would result in the holy land, anything else is just playing with yourself.

[Kiwicol]

FWIW I did some critical tests on the SD card, RAM Disk differences that Superdad had suggested and there was a marked difference in this versus my Lacie drive connected by firewire. The main difference I noted was a more organic sound, digital recordings that previously were a little hard on the ears were smoother and less edgy. I also had the benefit of trying an Antipodes server and again that organic more analog sound was prevalent but with gobs more detail. My wife who has good ears but doesn't subscribe to our crazy hobby also noticed the difference. Now if moving from an external HDD to an SD card can make a difference then it stands to reason that in a revealing set up a SSD which does not spin and is more efficient that a spinning drive a difference would be heard. Arguing over this is a futile exercise. There will always be the skeptics who want proof that this is the case. If you do hear a difference pour a drink, put on your favourite album and enjoy your improvements.

[Superdad]

Hi Kiwicol:

Glad you are able to appreciate the SD card. But suggesting that an SSD will thus sound better than a spinning drive is the wrong conclusion. Music storage/playback SQ differences are all about the active drive interfaces--their own and the computer's chipsets for the same--and the activity, noise, and power supply spikes they generate at playback time in the DAC-connected computer. SATA, FireWire, and Thunderbolt all generate far more "stuff" than SDXC, PCIe flash, or Ethernet attached storage.

 

I've swapped a HD and an SSD into the same OWC FireWire enclosure (powered by an LPS) and heard virtually no difference. But put either of those drives into a different enclosure (the quad-ported OWCs with eSATA, USB 3.0, etc. sound worse), and THAT is easy to hear.

[AnotherSpin]

Glad you are able to appreciate the SD card. .

Call me crazy, but my today joy is to listen files through HQP on Sandisk SD card inserted to mac mini. No HQP on SSD at the same time.

[jabbr]

Hi Kiwicol:

Glad you are able to appreciate the SD card. But suggesting that an SSD will thus sound better than a spinning drive is the wrong conclusion. Music storage/playback SQ differences are all about the active drive interfaces--their own and the computer's chipsets for the same--and the activity, noise, and power supply spikes they generate at playback time in the DAC-connected computer. SATA, FireWire, and Thunderbolt all generate far more "stuff" than SDXC, PCIe flash, or Ethernet attached storage.

 

I've swapped a HD and an SSD into the same OWC FireWire enclosure (powered by an LPS) and heard virtually no difference. But put either of those drives into a different enclosure (the quad-ported OWCs with eSATA, USB 3.0, etc. sound worse), and THAT is easy to hear.

 

And so the conclusion drawn from this is that a diskless boot (via PXE) would allow all of the SATA etc. interfaces to be turned completely off in the BIOS.

[Paul R]

Hi Kiwicol:

Glad you are able to appreciate the SD card. But suggesting that an SSD will thus sound better than a spinning drive is the wrong conclusion. Music storage/playback SQ differences are all about the active drive interfaces--their own and the computer's chipsets for the same--and the activity, noise, and power supply spikes they generate at playback time in the DAC-connected computer. SATA, FireWire, and Thunderbolt all generate far more "stuff" than SDXC, PCIe flash, or Ethernet attached storage.

 

I've swapped a HD and an SSD into the same OWC FireWire enclosure (powered by an LPS) and heard virtually no difference. But put either of those drives into a different enclosure (the quad-ported OWCs with eSATA, USB 3.0, etc. sound worse), and THAT is easy to hear.

 

(grin) And would you believe the difference is is astounding between a standard spinning drive and a SSD?

 

That with a Crucial SSD MX200 series drive, and the built in Apple Flash. What a difference- especially when connected as an externally attached Thunderbolt-2 interface.

 

Now honestly, in absolute terms, it is a minute difference. But it affects the imaging and thus has an outsized impact on my enjoyment.

 

-Paul

[Superdad]

(grin) And would you believe the difference is is astounding between a standard spinning drive and a SSD?

 

That with a Crucial SSD MX200 series drive, and the built in Apple Flash. What a difference- especially when connected as an externally attached Thunderbolt-2 interface.

 

Now honestly, in absolute terms, it is a minute difference. But it affects the imaging and thus has an outsized impact on my enjoyment.

 

-Paul

 

Hi Paul:

I am not at all clear what or how you are comparing SSD vs. HD in your set up. If the interface, including the drive adapter/enclosure is at all different between them, then I still think that is most of what you are hearing.

Take a raw SSD and swap it into the same SATA bridge and then you would be comparing apples to apples.

[sandyk]

Hi Paul:

I am not at all clear what or how you are comparing SSD vs. HD in your set up. If the interface, including the drive adapter/enclosure is at all different between them, then I still think that is most of what you are hearing.

Take a raw SSD and swap it into the same SATA bridge and then you would be comparing apples to apples.

 

Chris demonstrated the differences between HDD and SSD at a Symposium several years ago. IIRC, he said that the HDD sounded a little muddy in comparison.

[Paul R]

Hi Paul:

I am not at all clear what or how you are comparing SSD vs. HD in your set up. If the interface, including the drive adapter/enclosure is at all different between them, then I still think that is most of what you are hearing.

Take a raw SSD and swap it into the same SATA bridge and then you would be comparing apples to apples.

 

 

Absolutely - just replaced the spinner in an older MacBook (non-retina) with a Crucial SSD and the music changed for the better to me. That applied whether the music was local on the disk or streaming over the house network. Color me absolutely surprised...

 

-Paul

[sandyk]

Paul

It's a shame thast you don't have enough room inside for +5V regulator

Absolutely - just replaced the spinner in an older MacBook (non-retina) with a Crucial SSD and the music changed for the better to me. That applied whether the music was local on the disk or streaming over the house network. Color me absolutely surprised...

 

-Paul

Paul

It's a shame that you don't have enough room inside for a small +5V regulator PCB for powering the SSD from the main supply rail. It would further improve !

 

Alex

[Superdad]

Absolutely - just replaced the spinner in an older MacBook (non-retina) with a Crucial SSD and the music changed for the better to me. That applied whether the music was local on the disk or streaming over the house network. Color me absolutely surprised...

 

Thanks for clarifying Paul. Your test was different than mine in three key ways which likely allowed you to hear the differences you did. In what I think is greatest-to-least order of impact:

 

1) Your internal MBP drives were connected directly to SATA bus--versus my HD/SSD swap being done in an external FW enclosure--and in my interface SQ rankings direct SATA rates higher than any external bus-attached interface.

 

2) Your internal drives are not only drawing all their power from inside the computer, and SSD may be drawing less--or in a less "bursty" way than the HD. Both of those drives are also imposing their differing power and noise spike fingerprints in the computer, whereas my external drive interface with separate LPS may negate those power profile differences.

 

3) Internal drives sit right next to/on top of motherboard. Some SSDs may have less radiated EMI/RFI than some spinning drives.

 

Above is all speculation of course since neither have us have done the other's comparison. But at least you were comparing oranges-to-oranges while I was comparing apples-to-apples.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

And so the conclusion drawn from this is that a diskless boot (via PXE) would allow all of the SATA etc. interfaces to be turned completely off in the BIOS.

 

If I ever run Windows again I might try that!

In the meantime, I am anxious to compare a 2014 Mac mini with just PCIe Flash drive (no SATA!) versus my 2012 SD card booted mini (with all SATA dismounted/ejected). Should equal or surpass it (certainly on speed!).

I don't mind the change to soldered RAM in the 2014 as that probably gives Apple more control over timing. But the only i7 available in the 2014 is dual-core, not quad-core, and I'm not sure how that will do with HQ Player if I ask it to go to Redbook>DSD256.

[OctavianH]

This is an incredible topic and I see no one bothered to continue the discussion for almost 5 years. I've upgraded recently my PC to an "all SSD" configuration and moved my lossless collection from a WD 6TB HDD to a Sandisk 4TB SSD Ultra 3D and I heard immediately a difference. The first impression was that the sound was thinner, less analogue, but very precise and clean. First of all I thought that maybe the motherboard is the culprit, but after listening more and more I start to think that the storage changed something. A few months ago I would never thought about this, but here we are... 

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, OctavianH said:

This is an incredible topic and I see no one bothered to continue the discussion for almost 5 years. I've upgraded recently my PC to an "all SSD" configuration and moved my lossless collection from a WD 6TB HDD to a Sandisk 4TB SSD Ultra 3D and I heard immediately a difference. The first impression was that the sound was thinner, less analogue, but very precise and clean. First of all I thought that maybe the motherboard is the culprit, but after listening more and more I start to think that the storage changed something. A few months ago I would never thought about this, but here we are... 

  SSDs can inject a lot of very fast rise and fall time residual rubbish back into the main PSU area, and more than HDDs . (see attachment)

 Ideally, they and their PSU leads should be screened, and if possible powered from the +12V rail using a low noise +5V regulator to help isolate this rubbish from getting back into the main PSU area.

[OctavianH]

Well, I never heard of the existence of such a low noise regulator for PC.

[sandyk]

34 minutes ago, OctavianH said:

Well, I never heard of the existence of such a low noise regulator for PC.

 

 Mine is purely D.I.Y and has <4uV noise . You can also obtain a suitable adjustable regulator from Audiowind on ebay with around 40uV noise, but ideally you should have a separate regulator section for each SSD, and they take up room, in my case in the bottom of the PC's case. I use a dual +5V regulator for both my OS and Music SSDs

 

audiowind-ultra-low-noise-lt40v-adjustable-voltage-regulator-module-12520v-15-amp-p0688-p0688

[OctavianH]

Well, my scenario is: 4TB SSD for storage of the music files, powered from a normal PC power supply. Then a JCAT on PCIexpress externally powered by a Sbooster. So the USB cable to the DAC is plugged into the JCAT. What I observed is that playing from HDD was warmer and somehow more "analogue" and playing via SSD was somehow more analytical, more details, but a less exciting sound. This is not a very big problem for me, from my DAC I have a Tube amp for my headphones so I can modify the sound signature to match my expectation. So it is not very clear for me, how these residual noise is affecting my scenario. Normally the USB signal is filtered by the JCAT. This is why I do not really understand why storage type matters in my case.

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, OctavianH said:

This is why I do not really understand why storage type matters in my case.

 

 The front end does matter, and the actual PSU area can change a little how a  music file sounds, even when playing the file from System Memory,  without harming any 1s or 0s , despite what quite a few members here will insist, but not most of those participating in this huge thread..

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/#comments

[OctavianH]

When you speak about "PSU area" you are referring to the location of the PSU?

 

 

The SSDs are on the back of the motherboard at a bigger distance from the PSU as the HDD from the previous build which was located somehow in front of it. I never thought there will be any difference, and indeed I have a new motherboard now. Your advice is to power separately these SSDs? Any other advices?

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, OctavianH said:

When you speak about "PSU area" you are referring to the location of the PSU?

 

 

 

 No, I am talking about the type and quality of the PSU.

  e.g. 100s of Mac Mini owners obtained a marked  improvement in SQ by replacing it's SMPS with a Linear PSU designed by E.E. John Swenson  from Uptone Audio, as well as using their Linear Fan controller option to filter the power to  the Fans, thus markedly reducing RF/EMI from the harmonics of the "square wave" type pulses of around 25kHz from the Motherboard PWM control ( Pulse Width Modulation) 

 A Kelvin Sensor option for the PSU also resulted in a further small improvement by further improving the stability of it's output voltage, as it sensed the actual voltage at the end of the output cable.

 In my PC, I use the existing SMPS but further filter the +12V and +5V voltages to the internal Blu Ray writer to obtain a highly stable voltage when ripping and writing , as well as regulating the 12V rail to a very low noise +5V for the OS and Music SSDs,

 The SSDs are also mounted in the metal drive bay .

[OctavianH]

Honestly, instead of doing this I guess the simplest solution would be an external enclosure connected via USB3 and powered externally.