Does SSD sound better than Hard Disk?

[sandyk]

[sandyk, People are reporting audible difference because they spent money on new SSD and expect to get a gain of it.

/QUOTE]

Yuri

With all due respect, that is a load of garbage.

Nobody knew what to expect at the Symposium. Some members such as Peter St. who designed the very well received Phasure NOS DAC and is the author of the acclaimed XXHE software, actually prefer the sound of HDD over SSD.

 

The simple fact is that the Power Supply does matter every bit as much (perhaps more) with digital as it does with Analogue.

I would suggest that you take time to peruse many of the various threads in C.A. before attempting to tell the members that all the differences they report hearing, whether with USB cables, SOtM SATA filters, SOtM PCI-E USB power supplies, glass vs plastic fibre optic leads,DIRECT usb to a DAC vs. via a Linear powered USB to coax SPDIF converter etc. , difffferent types of 75 ohm SPDIF coaxial cables etc. is all in their imagination.

Regards

Alex

[Yuri]

Hi Yuri - You may want to lighten up your tone a bit. There are many audiophiles on CA who will read your comment as an insult and discount anything you say.

 

Hi Chris, no means to insult anyone. Just wanted to explain the matter in a logical way. Sorry if being read as insulting.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks Yuri.

[Yuri]

sandyk,

 

You're trying to explain digital audio system with analog means where indeed power supply quality or line noise may affect the signal.

 

Whatever file source you use: internal SATA HDD, internal SATA SSD, external USB HDD, etc will produce exactly same byte stream to external devices (DACs). One should start worrying about signal quality from the DAC layer and beyond (up to speakers and room acoustics).

 

However, why do I care?... I will be happy when SSD sales are up

 

I would suggest that you take time to peruse many of the various threads in C.A. before attempting to tell the members that all the differences they report hearing, whether with USB cables, SOtM SATA filters, SOtM PCI-E USB power supplies, glass vs plastic fibre optic leads,DIRECT usb to a DAC vs. via a Linear powered USB to coax SPDIF converter etc. , difffferent types of 75 ohm SPDIF coaxial cables etc. is all in their imagination

 

I spent a lot of time reading this forum. Subjective reported impressions are never treated as scientific reliable data. I will agree with any of these reports if effect of replacing HDD with SSD can be measured.

Let's say one can capture USB audio stream in case #1 (HDD) and case #2 (SSD) in logic analyzer. I *know* (don't believe, know) that audio streams will be same.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Yuri - I have no doubt the bits are identical whether pulled from an HDD or SSD. That's a nonissue for me. Where I believe differences may be found is in the electrical noise generated by either HDD or SSD. Most USB receiving chips in DACs are powered from the USB bus. This direct electrical link from DAC to computer may impact performance although not change the bits.

 

A green HDD may use 6 watts versus an SSD using 0.05 watts. Could this be one piece of the puzzle? I'm not sure.

 

I've been experimenting with computer PSUs and should have some objective measurements that show audible differences soon.

[Yuri]

Well, I was thinking about DACs with their own power supply (as the one I'm using). DACs powered by USB may be a different point.

 

If USB voltage is not stable then it *may* affect digital-to-analog performance - assume that ground level (GND) is drifting then output may not be as precise as it should.

 

This might be possible when:

1) Computer's PSU is not well designed. Good one should handle 0.05 watts vs 6 watts without any spikes. And please note SSD can also generate power spikes during some operations (erase is most power consuming, and there are background tasks to relocate data on flash)

2) There is no power stabilization in USB-powered DAC

 

So if there is a *real* difference in sound quality then there should be some sort of explanation why. But with my SSD knowledge I can't imagine difference yet.

 

The only thing comes to my mind is performance. HDD may be late to provide required data causing audio dropouts or freeze. This is why advised to have big memory buffers for track preloading.

[sandyk]

You're trying to explain digital audio system with analog means where indeed power supply quality or line noise may affect the signal

Many people will tell you that a USB memory stick, which has an inbuilt 3.3V voltage regulator , sounds a little better than either SSD or HDD. It's very easy to demonstrate using a high resolution sound system, that the same USB memory stick when supplied by a very high quality +5V Linear PSU, with vBus +5V disconnected at the PC end of a USB cable sounds noticeably better than when using USB power, even when both .wav files are played from System Memory using cPlay.

I had no problems demonstrating that, and an even more highly contentious issue, to a Sydney based qualifiied E.E. at a listening session several weekends ago. The E.E has wide industry experience, and is also a DIYAudio member.("Owdeo")

Alex

[Yuri]

Alex,

 

Congratulations if that helped you with sales (seriously). But your example can be explained with a well known placebo effect.

I agree that dirty power supply may introduce some non-linear distortions to the sound but it is very unlikely that another person can easy tell one from another during short listening session. He has to be very familiar with the sound of the very given audio system to really tell the difference by replacing single component.

 

I think we cannot advance further in discussion so let's finish with it. Everybody will keep his opinion

And I wish you good luck in selling hi end (no kidding).

[sandyk]

Yuri

I have nothing to sell. I am purely into DIY, and have NEVER sold ANY equipment.

Alex

[sootshe]

In reply to the original question posted......I've just changed my internal HD over to a SSD & just run the OS & Amarra & XLD on that....everything else is on an external spinning HD & the difference is amazing! Far superior sound quality for a measlyy couple of hundred dollars....best upgrade I've ever done.

[Metralla]

I had no problems demonstrating that, and an even more highly contentious issue, to a Sydney based qualifiied E.E. at a listening session several weekends ago. The E.E has wide industry experience, and is also a DIYAudio member.("Owdeo")

What was the "more highly contentious issue" you were able to demonstrate?

[spacey]

I recently moved to a 512GB SSD from a Hybrid 750GB SSD/HDD. I use Memory play within JRiver and to me the SSD sounds better. I cannot technically explain why but leading edge decay on vocals and echo on instruments sound more defined.

[sandyk]

What was the "more highly contentious issue" you were able to demonstrate?

Hi Geoff

Let's just leave it as further confirmation of the report published in HiFiCritic Vol6 No.1 re my comparison .wav files.

My E.E. friend was dared to post what he heard in DIYAudio, but wasn't game to do so given the history there of extremely sarcastic replies that would not be tolerated here.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

Feel free to PM me if you need further explanation. I don't wish to open this can of worms again in C.A. although it does tie in to some extent with what recent posters are reporting in this thread that is also claimed to be impossible.

[Suteetat]

Recently, I changed my hard drive in my music server to a bigger one. In the past, C drive and my music library reside on the same HD. Since I have a SSD available so I thought why not and installed window and JRMC on SSD and leave my music library on regular drive. Well, this is not a blind AB test but I am familar with prevous set up as my system has been quite stable for a long time and HD was really the only change in the system. OK window was also reinstalled, same as JRMC but

the effect probably is not as big as SSD vs regular drive.

Basically, both HD sounds quite different and not all that subtle in my opinion but which is better probably will be very much depending on the rest of the system. With regular drive, the sound is a bit more roll off on the top, a bit less detail. With SSD, I hear more extension on top, a bit more clarity, the sound is better focus, a tad leaner.

Now, in a lot of digital based system where the sound could lean toward brightness and a bit edgy, hard etc (at least in comparison to a good analogue system), SSD could very well make things worse.

My Lamm electronics lean a bit toward darker, warmer side so SSD injects a bit more life a bit more extension and air on top that is quite welcome. However, in certain system, I think taking out SSD and use regular drive may help.

So I don't think that this is a matter of one solution for all.

I am not 100% sure that I like the sound of SSD more than my old drive yet. I still have the old drive intact that after a few more weeks of listening, I might stick it back into the server and see what happen.

[sootshe]

I agree Suteetat, the SSD is definitely cleaner & brighter sounding & may not suit all systems. Another big difference I noticed was that the bass was considerably improved.....cleaner & more detaild as well as easier to pick out.

 

Thanks for articulating the differences between the two drives, I think you're spot on. I always find it hard to put into words the differences I hear, but you have done a great job.

[sandyk]

[quoteAnother big difference I noticed was that the bass was considerably improved.....cleaner & more detaild as well as easier to pick out.

]

That is a well documented attribute associated with lower Jitter.

[bobbmd]

chris-i sent u a "private" message about the system i am planning to purchase and also posted it on general forums-ie buying macmini with fusion drive(126gb ssd and 1tb hdd vs256gb ssd OR the osx server 2x 256gb ssd) trying to get a "feel" for what is "better" am i incorrect that the ssd would be the drive that "plays" or sends the music out to a dac and the hdd stores the music? i assume the 126gb ssd w/1tb sata hdd would be more than sufficent/efficient for me does the "stored" music on hdd get seamlessly transferred to ssd for playing?-iam only using the the macmini to listen to music ie streaming ONLY from MOG and my cd collection plus future downloads(and email,searches) i believe you indicated somewhere in the past maybe on your CAPS page that ssd would sound better and be longer lasting and quieter would also appreciate yours and others opinions on which dac gungnir/ca dm+ to buy and any thoughts on the ripping service i am going to use "pickled productions" and the player puremusic(i understand it can be used to stream MOG through it and make it sound even better than what i hear now through my pc w/out a dac) all of these opinions sometimes get a bit confusing and sarcastic and condenscending(like one reply to me was "do you have an amp?" or in regard to which usb port to use for the dac-" be sure to stand the opitcal drive on its side when ripping my cd's to the macmini!!" i think YOU were the one who said that the ports ARE different and pointed out which one to use) hope to hear from you /others i really enjoy ca!! bobbmd

[harry26]

has anyone observed any difference in sound quality when music is played from a internal ssd drive versus a external ssd drive over thunderbolt or firewire?

[eternaloptimist]

Lets just assume for the moment that there is a difference in the digital information exiting the computer if an SSD or HDD were used (and I don't buy it for a moment - too many buffers between drive and usb "exit" etc)...

Once the bitstream hits the DAC isn't it up to the DAC to take the bytes on demand and then do the analog conversion?

 

I have an Audiophilleo2 in the chain which reclocks the bitstream - what possible change on the PC side could affect the data once it has been reclocked provided it is bitperfect entering the AP2? "Noise?" - this word is bandied around like "jitter" used to be. How would this affect the end result? Either the correct bits arrive at the correct time at the DAC chip or they don't.

 

Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary proof and I haven't seen any good evidence, just subjective, non-blinded reports - which are fine in a hobby but don't count as proof. The appeal to expert logical fallacy is also getting a workout.

I am not aiming to offend, but to counter the "smack downs" here that occur when a poster dares to question something which really would defy very well understood physics, electronics and computer science principals. Physics is physics - not a relative truth.

 

Next someone will be claiming that fancy USB cables make a difference over well made generic cables... Oh crap... They already are....

 

Incidentally, I left one forum after being roundly smacked down for seriously questioning claims of an audible difference between Ethernet cables used between pc and NAS!! How rude!

* am not feeling optimistic today *

[mayhem13]

It's OK to share your objective viewpoint on such topics here and better yet, to present a reasonable physical reason as to why such differences aren't audible BUT it's also required that you accept the listening claims of your subjective brethren, no matter how wild or far fetched you might feel those claims be. Otherwise, often offense is 'taken' that you suggest they are not hearing what they proclaim to hear. If you can wrap your head around the hypothesis that human hearing is a mystical realm not fully understood by modern science, you'll be fine!

[Suteetat]

I see people throwing around blinded study like it is the holygrail of a test and that blinded test will somehow magically validate result of any test. Granted in scientific study, blinded study is preferred but it is only a mean. There are plenty of poorly designed blinded study that produce absolutely meaningless result eventhhough perfectly blinded. Also nobody is going to take any blinded study, no matter how good the study is if there is only 1,2,3 or a handful of subjects seriously, scientifically speaking. If one person conduct a blind listening test on an audio equipment, the result is unlikely to be more significant than another's person non blinded listening test because neither test would have adequate power to prove the result in any statistical meaningful way. Most medical trials require 100's or more often 1000's of subjects in each arm to produce any kind of statistically meaningful result.

 

Not everybody has the same level of hearing capability either. Not that long ago, there was a blind test done on violins and surprisingly most people could not distiguish a Stradivarius violin from modern violin, even musicians. However, some subjects were able to identify Stradivarius violin consistantly so test subjects do matter. I think that on a forum like this, we can pretty much only share our personal experience. Throwing in blind vs non-blind test is not going to let us achieve any kind of valid scientific study anyhow unless someone is willing to gather hundreds of carefully selected subjects together then blind vs non blind test discussion will be more meaningful.

[Suteetat]

Forgot to mention, let say, a person is conducting a blind test on 2 cables, regular USB cable and uber expensive USB cable to hear if they sound the same or different. However, the person is already believed that it is all 0 and 1 and regular USB cable should logically carry 0 and 1 just like any other USB cable.

What is the likelihood that a blind test will give different result than a non blind test? Would this test give any meaningful result?

[mayhem13]

......and the expectation bias you mention works on all fronts too so remember that the next time you spend $100 or more on a USB cable and audition it for the first time. Is it really more 'air' in the music or is it just more air in your wallet? Lol!

[jhwalker]

Forgot to mention, let say, a person is conducting a blind test on 2 cables, regular USB cable and uber expensive USB cable to hear if they sound the same or different. However, the person is already believed that it is all 0 and 1 and regular USB cable should logically carry 0 and 1 just like any other USB cable.

What is the likelihood that a blind test will give different result than a non blind test? Would this test give any meaningful result?

 

That wouldn't be a blind test. If you *tell* the subject what you're testing (e.g., generic USB cable vs. expensive one), of course bias can play a role. If you don't tell, and only ask, "did you hear a difference?", there is still some bias possible (some could stubbornly say, "I will never hear a difference"), but takes away some of the preconceived notions.

 

FWIW, I agree with eternaloptimist - I don't see how the source of the data can play a role in how it sounds once it gets out the other side of a DAC. The hard disk (or RAM or whatever) is just a bit repository - it's not like an analog record that can easily become damaged or change over time. If even one bit is damaged or misread, usually the file will refuse to play at all - it won't sound more "sparkly" or have "tighter bass", etc. - these are symptoms you might get in a highly-variable analog system, not a digital one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like SSDs for better performance, etc., but I don't expect them to make a difference to sound quality.

[Suteetat]

That wouldn't be a blind test. If you *tell* the subject what you're testing (e.g., generic USB cable vs. expensive one), of course bias can play a role. If you don't tell, and only ask, "did you hear a difference?", there is still some bias possible (some could stubbornly say, "I will never hear a difference"), but takes away some of the preconceived notions.

 

FWIW, I agree with eternaloptimist - I don't see how the source of the data can play a role in how it sounds once it gets out the other side of a DAC. The hard disk (or RAM or whatever) is just a bit repository - it's not like an analog record that can easily become damaged or change over time. If even one bit is damaged or misread, usually the file will refuse to play at all - it won't sound more "sparkly" or have "tighter bass", etc. - these are symptoms you might get in a highly-variable analog system, not a digital one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like SSDs for better performance, etc., but I don't expect them to make a difference to sound quality.

 

I am not trying to convince anyone here about any difference between USB cable. My point is that when somebody is crying "well this is not a blind test so it is not valid" and so on, how often does those people actually deploy blind test properly. People tend to think as soon as it is somehow blinded, result will be magically more accurate.

 

Also, it is not true that subjects do not know what they are testing. How else would any patient be willing to sign any consent for any medical trial? The subjects all know that they are in blood pressure medication trial, diabetes trial or whatever the study is.

You are not trying to hide that point away. However, you don't tell them if they get placebo or the real medication.

 

In USB cable test, unfortunately there is no control or placebo. Only 2 cables, so it can be done blinded to death but initial premise of blind test and no bias is false if the subject already believe that there is no difference.

However, if the subject actually believes that there must be a difference between cheap and expensive cable, the result will be more interesting as the person would likely perceive some different but would they actually pick the more expensive cable or not?

 

But regardless, sample size of one or two or ten will not make much statistically difference for something like this. So however you want to test equipments, I don't really feel strongly that blind test is all that it cracked up to be for audio. Personally, I find the best way to test something is to put it in my system and listen it for a week or two then remove it. First impression during the first few minutes or hour may be accurate but surprising after extended audition, first impression is also often wrong. I don't know how many times I put something new in the system and I thought it was the greatest improvement then a week later, putting the old stuff back in and I found that the old stuff is actually better so out the new stuff go! So, long audition and getting familiar with the sound then going back to the old stuff seems to work best for me.