HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[zorntel]

Well, over on the actual thread for the product, the designer has now confirmed that it has the equivalent of the Uptone USB Regen built in. Bet you didn't know that when you made your well informed "evaluation".

 

The Regen is a $170 item that has received widespread praise and good reviews as a "good for the money" add-on to USB. So anyone already owning a Regen who buys a microRendu can sell the Regen.

 

Sounds like good value to me. What price would make it not a "rip off" in your judgement?

 

If it turns out to be a Regen $170 + Cubox-i $170...then its a bit pricey. It seems closer to a Regen $170 + Sonicorbiter SE $300 plus...maybe pricey at $600+...but it will take some ears to decide.

 

The other issue is whether you necessarily want a Regen to be a part of the product. Sometimes the Regen helps...sometimes not...nice to not have to worry about more cables/adapters though.

 

It also depends on whether you want a turn-key product. I have both a Cubox-i with Jussi's build and also a Sonicorbiter. Thanks to Jesus's quick action my Mytek Brooklyn is streaming DSD256...my cubox-i isn't. If I was a linux power user...I'd probably have my cubox-i running too...but I'm not...and I don't....

 

Sorry...getting off topic.

 

Robert

[Miska]

So you are saying just try running HQPlayer with ASIO on THAT machine, and see if the NADAC sees it?

 

I was supposed to say ASIO not ALSA... But anyway just use HQPlayer's ASIO backend with NADAC, unless you run two separate networks you can leave NAA out of the picture. If you do run two separate networks, you can use NAA to bridge the two.

[firedog]

If it turns out to be a Regen $170 + Cubox-i $170...then its a bit pricey. It seems closer to a Regen $170 + Sonicorbiter SE $300 plus...maybe pricey at $600+...but it will take some ears to decide.

 

The other issue is whether you necessarily want a Regen to be a part of the product. Sometimes the Regen helps...sometimes not...nice to not have to worry about more cables/adapters though.

 

It also depends on whether you want a turn-key product. I have both a Cubox-i with Jussi's build and also a Sonicorbiter. Thanks to Jesus's quick action my Mytek Brooklyn is streaming DSD256...my cubox-i isn't. If I was a linux power user...I'd probably have my cubox-i running too...but I'm not...and I don't....

 

Sorry...getting off topic.

 

Robert

 

Sorry for the off topic, but it is tangetially related to HQP and NAA: the microRendu isn't the Cubox or the SonicOrbiter SE. Those are both off the shelf computer products that can be used for audio.

 

The microRendu is a custom designed and built unit for audiophile ethernet>USB functionality. Different parts, custom board, electrical regulation, etc. A boutique product. So clearly it's going to be more expensive than a mass produced box selling in multiple 10K units.

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone to buy one, and obviously I haven't heard one. I just don't understand why people keep lumping it together with these other products and saying it's overpriced or a rip off. IMO, on paper it clearly isn't.

 

When they start being sold we'll find out if reality matches that.

[nautibuoy]

Well, over on the actual thread for the product, the designer has now confirmed that it has the equivalent of the Uptone USB Regen built in. Bet you didn't know that when you made your well informed "evaluation".

 

The Regen is a $170 item that has received widespread praise and good reviews as a "good for the money" add-on to USB. So anyone already owning a Regen who buys a microRendu can sell the Regen.

 

Sounds like good value to me. What price would make it not a "rip off" in your judgement?

 

Let me say up front that I am not entering the debate about whether the Sonore device's pricing but I have to say that you're push back about the Regen hasn't been thought through. The Regen sells as a retail product in it's own right for $170 but that doesn't mean that $170 of the value of the Sonore can be attributed to it; it's likely that the cost of adding Regen type functionality to the Sonore is probably just a couple of tens of $.

[pipis2010]

If it turns out to be a Regen $170 + Cubox-i $170...then its a bit pricey. It seems closer to a Regen $170 + Sonicorbiter SE $300 plus...maybe pricey at $600+...but it will take some ears to decide.

 

The other issue is whether you necessarily want a Regen to be a part of the product. Sometimes the Regen helps...sometimes not...nice to not have to worry about more cables/adapters though.

 

It also depends on whether you want a turn-key product. I have both a Cubox-i with Jussi's build and also a Sonicorbiter. Thanks to Jesus's quick action my Mytek Brooklyn is streaming DSD256...my cubox-i isn't. If I was a linux power user...I'd probably have my cubox-i running too...but I'm not...and I don't....

 

Sorry...getting off topic.

 

Robert

 

You are forgetting something, the micro Rendu is CUSTOM-BUILT for USB!!! That alone costs a lot...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[firedog]

Let me say up front that I am not entering the debate about whether the Sonore device's pricing but I have to say that you're push back about the Regen hasn't been thought through. The Regen sells as a retail product in it's own right for $170 but that doesn't mean that $170 of the value of the Sonore can be attributed to it; it's likely that the cost of adding Regen type functionality to the Sonore is probably just a couple of tens of $.

 

Or it can, depending on how you look at it. "Value" is a subjective concept, not a cost plust concept.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal thinks it might, but did not use it with HQP. The documentation seems to assert that Ravenna coexists with regular LAN networking, and I rely heaviiy on RDC for access, since both my HQP and NAA machines are headless..

I did use it with HQP, just not with an NAA. Ethernet directly from my server to the NADAC.

 

It should work, since the ALSA backend is the same between HQPlayer and networkaudiod. But it may not be very beneficial to use NAA with NADAC since it is already networked and I'm not sure if two network hops will improve the end result compared to one... If the two networks are separate then maybe, if they are all in the same network then likely not...

! I used a separate network.

 

So you are saying just try running HQPlayer with ASIO on THAT machine, and see if the NADAC sees it?

Yes.

[ted_b]

I did use it with HQP, just not with an NAA. Ethernet directly from my server to the NADAC.

 

! I used a separate network.

 

 

Kal (an any other NADAC users of HQP),

I now understand more, thanks. But how did you do ethernet direct to NADAC? Did your server have more than one NIC card? Did the server stay on your LAN so you could see it (and HQP)? What do you mean by "I used a separate network"? You can email or PM me if this is only pertinent to you (i.e no other NADAC HQP users out there).

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal (an any other NADAC users of HQP),

I now understand more, thanks. But how did you do ethernet direct to NADAC? Did your server have more than one NIC card?

Yes.

Did the server stay on your LAN so you could see it (and HQP)?

Yes.

What do you mean by "I used a separate network"?

Main LAN as it has always been. Connected NADAC to the 2nd NIC and Windows designated it as another network.

You can email or PM me if this is only pertinent to you (i.e no other NADAC HQP users out there).

No need. Also described in the current MITR for others who think it is pertinent.

[ted_b]

Yes.

Also described in the current MITR for others who think it is pertinent.

 

You're killing me, man. (Inside joke; we made a deal that we wouldn't read each others reviews before our own were done. Not that I am putting myself on Kal's level, no.)

[Elescher]

Hi,

 

I have spent over an hour trying to find an earlier post I read that explains how to set up a Mac (Mini) as a NAA. I have an Amanero USB DAC that I have been feeding bits from a Linux system for almost a year and want to hear DSD 256 on my system. Can someone send me a link that can help me out with this. Thanks upfront!!

[Freann]

https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/v3/osx/

 

The NAA has no GUI or setting. Just install and select Open from Finder. It will run from a Terminal window.

The select the NAA from the Backend setting i HQPlayer desktop.

[Kal Rubinson]

Not that I am putting myself on Kal's level, no.)

No need to think you are not. I rely a lot on your work.

[jabbr]

No need to think you are not. I rely a lot on your work.

 

Because of ted_b I buy lots of SACDs!

[Forehaven]

Hi,

 

I have spent over an hour trying to find an earlier post I read that explains how to set up a Mac (Mini) as a NAA. I have an Amanero USB DAC that I have been feeding bits from a Linux system for almost a year and want to hear DSD 256 on my system. Can someone send me a link that can help me out with this. Thanks upfront!!

 

Good question. I wonder how much SQ improvement of using something like the Microrenderer vs a M. Mini as NAA?

[sdolezalek]

Ted, Kal, others: How likely are we to see an increase in solutions like the NADAC that effectively eliminate the whole USB issue and ideally function as both NAA and DAC in one for those of us addicted to HQPlayer?

[Miska]

Ted, Kal, others: How likely are we to see an increase in solutions like the NADAC that effectively eliminate the whole USB issue and ideally function as both NAA and DAC in one for those of us addicted to HQPlayer?

 

My estimate is not very soon and not on very inexpensive devices. Given that Ravenna/AES-67 is quite a bit more complex than NAA... This is because it is trying to address way more use cases than NAA which is optimized for one single case.

[jabbr]

Ted, Kal, others: How likely are we to see an increase in solutions like the NADAC that effectively eliminate the whole USB issue and ideally function as both NAA and DAC in one for those of us addicted to HQPlayer?

 

There undoubtedly will be an increase in the use of direct Ethernet DAC inputs., using a board that outputs I2S. Of course these boards will generate a certain amount of noise & jitter and hopefully will be less than the equivalent USB->I2S boards which are in use today.

 

I think the whole USB chain has gotten expensive with special cables and all sorts of widgets that need their own power supplies etc and so if that expense is directed at the Ethernet->I2S input board, and let's assume it accepts an SFP/optical input so we won't be assaulted with "audiophile" Ethernet cables etc, than this Ethernet input could perform better at the same price point.

[jabbr]

My estimate is not very soon and not on very inexpensive devices. Given that Ravenna/AES-67 is quite a bit more complex than NAA... This is because it is trying to address way more use cases than NAA which is optimized for one single case.

 

I'm thinking of an FPGA/ARM board or embedded ARM board than can run Linux and thus NAA-- how hard would it be to modify networkaudiod to output via I2S instead of USB?

 

Or is that already configurable?

 

I'm talking about a dedicated direct Ethernet input for let's say NAA/DSC2 integrated box.

[zorntel]

Hi,

 

I have spent over an hour trying to find an earlier post I read that explains how to set up a Mac (Mini) as a NAA. I have an Amanero USB DAC that I have been feeding bits from a Linux system for almost a year and want to hear DSD 256 on my system. Can someone send me a link that can help me out with this. Thanks upfront!!

 

I'm pretty sure you won't be able to get DSD256 from that DAC and a macmini unless you install Windows under bootcamp and install the ASIO drivers. The mac only supports DSD using DoP and your DAC will only support DSD128 doing DoP. Installing the HQplayer NAA is as simple as downloading the file and double clicking on the application...but this won't help your DSD256 problem. You will either need a Windows or Linux NAA. Not sure whether there is a native Linux driver for that DAC or not.

 

Robert

[Miska]

I'm thinking of an FPGA/ARM board or embedded ARM board than can run Linux and thus NAA-- how hard would it be to modify networkaudiod to output via I2S instead of USB?

 

NAA is certainly not limited to USB at all. I2S already works just fine. As long as there's ALSA driver for Linux, networkaudiod works the same regardless of interface type. For example Hifiberry DAC+ Pro and Digi+ work just fine with networkaudiod and both are I2S and no USB involved.

 

Or is that already configurable?

 

Yes, networkaudiod just exposes audio interfaces towards HQPlayer.

 

I'm talking about a dedicated direct Ethernet input for let's say NAA/DSC2 integrated box.

 

You could certainly have both on the same board, without any USB involved. What you need is DSD digital interface instead of I2S. I2S is PCM-only... DSD interface is in fact simpler, two data lines (for stereo) and bit clock. That's all.

[jabbr]

Yes, I'm using "I2S" incorrectly. What I mean is to use the same IO pins that would be used for I2S but for direct DSD.

 

Don't have my "snickerdoodle" yet but I'm assuming there needs to be a simple ALSA driver that writes to shared memory buffer and then the FPGA side side reclocks and writes out the IO lines. In the same fashion the FPGA implements the SGMII interface to the SFP module and communicates the data to the ARM side. I'm hoping that at the $55 price point that this will be supported by the open source community.

[sdolezalek]

NAA is certainly not limited to USB at all. I2S already works just fine. As long as there's ALSA driver for Linux, networkaudiod works the same regardless of interface type. For example Hifiberry DAC+ Pro and Digi+ work just fine with networkaudiod and both are I2S and no USB involved.

 

Yes, networkaudiod just exposes audio interfaces towards HQPlayer.

 

You could certainly have both on the same board, without any USB involved. What you need is DSD digital interface instead of I2S. I2S is PCM-only... DSD interface is in fact simpler, two data lines (for stereo) and bit clock. That's all.

 

I tried to talk the iFi guys into incorporating this design into the upcoming iDSD Pro as their Nano and Micro units work so well with HQPlayer and it would be a way to distinguish the iPro from other DACs as a great upsampled and DSD-focused solution that could be plugged directly into the network. Having both regular and optical network input plugs would be even better.

[Miska]

Yes, I'm using "I2S" incorrectly. What I mean is to use the same IO pins that would be used for I2S but for direct DSD.

 

OK, from software point of view it is similar to I2S, but from hardware point of view not. That's why you don't so easily get it out of the existing hardware.

 

Don't have my "snickerdoodle" yet but I'm assuming there needs to be a simple ALSA driver that writes to shared memory buffer and then the FPGA side side reclocks and writes out the IO lines. In the same fashion the FPGA implements the SGMII interface to the SFP module and communicates the data to the ARM side.

 

Pretty much... You need some control registers (for things like clock selector for two sample rate families if you like to support that), memory buffer and interrupt generated at every N frames. The ALSA driver doesn't need to deal with writing samples to the memory because the buffer is mapped straight to the networkaudiod and it deals with that writing stuff. But it needs to deal with interrupt service and setting up the hardware specific registers and handling the necessary memory region.

[bibo01]

Miska,

 

can a device like this run networkaudiod?

https://www.solid-run.com/marvell-armada-family/clearfog/

The OS support is: Linux Kernel 3.x, OpenWrt, Yocto

 

The Pro version costs $170, but the soon to be release Base version should be interesting because it does not have as much connectivity, but it still has SFP port, Ethernet, USB and uSD. I think it has I2S too.