A suggestion for CA

[Richard Dale]

 

Unfortunately Jud, this won't deter my attempts to enlighten people of some of the myths that plague this hobby.

 

 

 

Well you certainly can't get audiophiles to agree with each other, and I don't think you can get audiophiles to even agree what an audiophile is. For me, an audiophile is someone who listens to music a lot and seeks for ways to improve their enjoyment of the music by getting better equipment and improving their listening environment.

 

 

 

Speaking personally, I think the thing that plagues the audiophile hobby is large numbers of people, who don't have any clue about the reproduction of music, being very rude about audiophiles on forums such as Slashdot. Before the internet, you followed your hobby by reading about HiFi topics in paper magazines and met other enthusiasts in HiFi shows and shops, or in their own homes. I don't mind non-audiophiles thinking we are a bit boring like they might think about stamp collectors. But you didn't have to deal these rude 'anti-audiophile' people at all.

 

 

 

I first noticed quite how rude these 'internet mobs' could be when the 'Great Randi' challenged audiophiles to demonstrate that they could hear differences between speaker cables. The Stereophile contributor Michael Fremer was being attacked by people with no relevant experience of listening to high quality systems, let alone Michael Fremer's half million dollar system. They didn't even any clue about basic physics. I was quite taken aback by all the insults.

 

 

 

So I think the most important thing is to be able to identify non-audiophiles who are being rude about audiophiles, as opposed to audiophiles disagreeing with each other about matters relevant to audiophiles. Now that is obviously a bit tricky, but as a starting point here is a list of signs I think you can use to tell if someone is an 'anti-audiophile':

 

 

 

• The refer to audiophiles using 'Monster cables', when by and large hardly any audiophiles use this brand.
  
• They refer to the 'Great Randi' speaker cable challenge.
  
• They think Bose is an audiophile brand
  
• They refer to an informal test that someone did to compare a coat hanger with a HiFi cable.
  
• They say that DBTs have proved that MP3s sound as good as uncompressed 16/44.1 PCM
  

 

 

 

And so on...

 

 

 

The reason that we used to have 'HiFi shops' in the physical world that sold things was that it is much harder than you might think for a non-audiophile to be able to assemble a good sounding system. It is really important to be able to go to a shop speak to an expert and listen to the alternatives that they suggest.

 

 

 

You can't really replace that experience of dealing with an expert in a shop, with a bunch of FAQs on a site like this. But the people on a site like this are invariably trying to be helpful even if we frequently disagree with each other. So my suggestion is to use the above list as a starting point for determining who is an 'anti-audiophile' in order that you can just concentrate on understanding the complete disagreements that actual audiophiles have with one another.

 

 

[prufrock]

A tip for other newbies.

Here is an "opinion" filter that may be of use. Check if someone has proudly listed all their cables at the bottom of the post. If they have, move on.

 

[Jud]

Check if someone has proudly listed all their cables at the bottom of the post. If they have, move on.

 

Guilty as charged. I do it for two reasons, both of which have worked well here in the past: to show others familiar with the equipment "where I'm coming from" as far as listening preferences; and to alert newbies who might be thinking of buying some of these items that I can give them info about its sound and reliability.

 

[Richard Dale]

 

Check if someone has proudly listed all their cables at the bottom of the post.

 

 

 

You might want to list what equipment you use even if you don't think listing the cables being used is worth doing. It helps to give some perspective on what sort of equipment a person prefers, and what level of performance and resolution their system might have. If you don't list any equipment, it makes it harder to know where you are coming from.

 

 

[mayhem13]

I disagree. Some may spend the extra $$$ on cables for durability and aesthetics. Of course there's the over the top cable guy now and then but hey....you can't win em all.

 

[Richard Dale]

 

I disagree. Some may spend the extra $$$ on cables for durability and aesthetics. Of course there's the over the top cable guy now and then but hey....you can't win em all.

 

 

 

You don't have a sig which gives details of you HiFi system and so it is very difficult to evaluate what practical experience you might have of high resolution HiFi systems (and cables). Are your opinions based on practical experience?

 

 

[souptin]

I think the remark about listing cables in signature was inteneded to be a little toungue in cheek. But hey, if you want to have a fight about it, I'll hold your jackets (and look through your wallets while I'm at it).

 

Listing one's gear in a signature is, as already stated, a reasonable way of giving other people some idea of where you're coming from. I don't (too lazy), although I do try and give some idea of it where it seems relevant. I think it's fair to point out that, unless a reader has listened to an astonishingly vast range of equipment, gear listings may not tell you much more than to give an idea of how much money the writer has invested. Not necessarily an accurate guide to sound quality or listening skills.

 

To address the initial points: There's already an FAQ section, as well as the C.A.S.H. list of kit to consider, as well as the CA Academy section. Perhaps not exactly what prufrock had in mind, but a good starting point for those who are intimidated by some of the longer and more controversial forum topics.

 

The only think I'd like to suggest to the general community is the great benefits to the life of the forum of being welcoming to newcomers, and attempting to reply to any new topics they raise in a considerate manner. Which many do, of course, but there are a few zero reply topics which is a shame. Not as bad as dressing up in Nazi uniforms and drowning puppies of course, which I know for an absolute fact is popular amongst certain forum members. I have pictures.

 

[RealAudio]

“The reason that we used to have 'HiFi shops' in the physical world that sold things was that it is much harder than you might think for a non-audiophile to be able to assemble a good sounding system”

 

That’s what Computerland used to say about Dell and all the other internet computer retailers.

 

“You can't really replace that experience of dealing with an expert in a shop” The expertise of the person in the shop is the same as the expertise of any commissioned salesperson. Their skill is sensing your sensitivities and using them to have you make purchases that maximize their commission. In the end, they don’t give a fig what your system sounds like.

 

”They didn't even any clue about basic physics”

 

If you’re concerned with science you should support the gold standard for science, the double blind test. The “basic physics” to justify multi thousand dollar power and speaker cables doesn’t exist. I can buy a plate for a dollar or I can buy a Flora Danica diner plate for $1,500. I can brag about the expense or the beauty of the Flora Danica, but no one says that the plate changes the taste of the food served on it. Expensive speaker and power cables are the same.

 

One final comment. All these comments on equipment and the virtues of high rez miss the point. I recently went to Das Rheingold at the Met Opera. At the end of that performance, as you walked out you could see that virtually everyone in the audience had actually been moved to tears by the performance. The common comment of selecting recording by the bit depth and sample rate not by the performance is proof to me that many “audiophiles” don’t know or care what music actually sounds like or what it can do.

 

 

[Jud]

One final comment. All these comments on equipment and the virtues of high

rez miss the point. I recently went to Das Rheingold at the Met Opera. At the

end of that performance, as you walked out you could see that virtually

everyone in the audience had actually been moved to tears by the performance.

The common comment of selecting recording by the bit depth and sample rate

not by the performance is proof to me that many “audiophiles” don’t

know or care what music actually sounds like or what it can do.

 

I've made similar comments myself (e.g., that no one ever walked away from a Pavarotti recital raving about the treble response).

 

Most of us are aiming for the same goal, to reproduce the type of emotion you saw. Because some folks think that something as simple as a USB or speaker cable might make a difference in pursuit of that goal doesn't render us hopeless unscientific tweaks. If you look at comments on the site, you'll see plenty of decent scientifically oriented thought from "subjective" folks.

 

[souptin]

The common comment of selecting recording by the bit depth and sample rate not by the performance is proof to me that many “audiophiles” don’t know or care what music actually sounds like or what it can do.

 

See here:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/Forums/Music/Music-Analysis-Objective-Subjective

 

Would you mind making an exception for those uncommon people (quite a few of them, in fact) who take their time to both listen and take measurements in order to help others?

 

Just for the record, I actually agree with you on quite a few points: Salesmen these days (sadly) are often much more interested in making the sale than in whether the product is what the buyer needs... Many hifi components look to have been built and priced for bragging rights and looks at least as much as they are for sound quality.

 

Oddly enough, personally I've found that fine china and quality glassware often does enhance a meal, even if I know fine well that it isn't changing the taste of the food. Go figure, huh? Only exception would be that time when I was in prison, when my pal Andy arranged for us to get some cold beers (which we drank straight out of the bottle) in return for tarring the roof. We sat and drank with the sun on our shoulders and felt like free men. Hell, we could have been tarring the roof of one of our own houses. We were the lords of all creation.

 

[jk1430]

Mayhem13,

 

Thanks for the above clarification. I thought you were talking about sound quality. It makes much more sense now in context of functionality and convenience. I do, however, have to agree with Jud. There's quite a few things we will not agree on. And thats OK; you're allowed to have your own views.

 

That said, I was hoping you can answer a couple of questions for me. (If anyone else has some input, by all means, comment as well.). I fully admit I am one of those people that forms an opinion based mostly listening. I will look at some measurements and specs, but in the end, I've never put that much trust in them. After reading a lot of comments on websites like this, it seems that a lot of people share your views. I'm starting to now think that I may have to readjust how I evaluate components. One of the main things I listen for when trying new equipment is timbre. For me, I find that is a component is very good at presenting the timbre of various instruments, I will probably be happy with it. The question I have is, how is timbre measured? If you (or anyone), can tell me how to look for this, it will save me a great deal of time. At the very least, it may help me narrow some of my choices down. I do have a couple more questions, but this is my main one so just this for now. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me out on this.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Awayalways - It's too bad you haven't talked to most audiophiles I know who and the dealers who help them. I'm not sure you'd think differently, as your opinions seem very black & white and set in stone, but at least you would see the other side of the industry.

 

Also, your writing implies a pretentious attitude that turns many people away from great performances at their local symphony hall. It also implies there is something wrong with loving equipment and talking about high resolution music like many people do.

 

P.S. Are you coming to Stereo Exchange this afternoon? I'll be there from Noon to 3:00 if you want to chat.

 

[Brian A]

Since these debates go on so often on this forum, and since the various positions people take are so predictable, repeated so frequently and so adamantly, it could save us all a lot of time and energy if we just established code words to represent our various positions. This would save everyone time from having to spelling it all out over and over again.

 

I'm no expert at codification of this stuff, but I have just spent a boring Sunday stuck in a hotel room in Atyrau Kazakhstan, so I'll take a first kick at sketching out the territory. Hopefully others can help:

 

A = You are an idiot! I have never heard a cable make a difference to my system.

 

B = You are an idiot! The laws of physics say that cables cannot be the difference.

 

C = You are an idiot! What sounds good on my system doesn't necessarily sound good on anybody else's system. Leave me alone.

 

D = You are an idiot! If you invited me to your house and served me beer, I could show you how good new cables could sound on your system.

 

E = You are an idiot! If your system was as good as my system, differences in cables would be clearly evident.

 

F = You are an idiot! And you have ears made of cloth. And I can tell by the way you write that you are kinda ugly too.

 

I say E.

 

 

[Paul R]

@Alwaysalways

 

Wow, you surely seemed to have boxed everyone into easily cataloged tiny boxes, and pasted labels on them. And stated your ideas like they are irrefutable laws of nature.

 

I think you might ought to talk to more people in the industry. Unlike many of the folks here, I am nobody special and I do not have a lot of connections inside the audio industry, but the people I have talked to mostly seem to be living refutations of your ideas.

 

And half the fun of this hobby is playing with the gear and seeing how enjoyable you can make your own personal system. It's always surprising what different people like and want to listen to. Even my wife occasionally surprises me.

 

-Paul

 

And of course, 30 seconds after I wrote that, I see Chris C. posted a note that says it way better than I did. -PR

 

 

[prufrock]

Its very time consuming for a newcomer to trawl through threads and blogs to get the basic information they need to get them started. Asking questions can result in conflicting information and more confusion. It requires the site owner to stick their neck out and provide guidance and sensible advice. I can see why they may be reluctant to do that however. Its what a newcomer wants though.

 

You brandname cables in the signature guys - You do the newbie no favours at all. Having them there sends a message that careful selection is an integral part of attaining a good sound.

 

 

-------------------------

HD USB3 ------> Asus Ultrabook UX21E i5, 11.6”, 128GB SSD, 4GB RAM, JRiver,Win7,802.1,Google Chrome,AVG, ---> USB2 ---> Stello U3 DCC asynch 24/192 ----> AES/EBU----> Stello DA100 Signature DAC ----> RCA Analogue out -----> NADC355BEE Integ Amp-----> Four Vandersteen 1; 2 Vandersteen 2wq subs

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bottlerocket]

Remove any posts with the the acronymn "DBT" in them before mayhem ensues.

 

[RealAudio]

Pretentious moi?

 

I'm in the middle of working with my team to tune up our algos in time for market open a 18:00, if we finish up, I'll drop down to lower broadway to say hi. I know those guys and I know that commissioned salepeople are the same regardless of industry.

 

[wgscott]

"Remove any posts with the the acronymn "DBT" in them before mayhem ensues."

 

Why stop there? Why not delete every post that appeals to reason and rationality, just in case it might potentially offend someone's irrational belief in imaginary phenomena?

 

[Talos2000]

... you will be first against the wall. With your opinions, which are of no consequence at all. What's there?....

 

That apparently rude brush-off is meant to be a serious observation. When I am listening to Radiohead on my system, why should I care a hoot what anybody on CA thinks about any aspect of my cables, file format, or the manufacturer of my hard disk?

 

Opinions - including mine - are opinions. They're not facts. Very few positions taken here are facts. Facts are easy to recognize - they are the ones NOBODY takes issue with. All the rest are opinions. And if you are going to go to the trouble of expressing your opinions here, you should be open to, and respectful of, others who may wish to express contrary opinions.

 

And kick me if I occasionally let those standards slip. I'm only human.

 

[dummy]

Google's not my friend today... What does "DBT" means?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

[Jud]

You brandname cables in the signature guys - You do the newbie no favours at all. Having them there sends a message that careful selection is an integral part of attaining a good sound.

 

They aren't? Huh, knock me over with a feather. Coulda swore my new speaker cables improved things. But I' m kinda softheaded that way, running after every new speaker cable tweak - after all, this *is* my second new set in the short space of 23 years. Musta been that smooth talking cable manufacturer, who when I called asking for a new biwired set, suggested a regular used set at a quarter of the price. These salesmen - all the same, I tell you.

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

how about we all try being a bit more polite to each other?

 

[Richard Dale]

DBT stands for 'Double Blind Test', and the idea is to compare the sound of components and software by allowing people to hear two different sources without knowing which one is which, and then give their ratings. On the surface, that sounds uncontroversial, but in practice there are many debates on this site and elsewhere about whether or not DBTs are a good idea.

 

[dummy]

I know what a double blind test is, I just didn't know DBT was its acronym. Now I do!

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

[Daren F]

"placebo effect = marketing hype to sell a product"

 

I recently had a visit to a local high end audio shop to buy a new power conditioner and audition a CA DacMagic Plus for my headphone setup.

 

The salesman, at the same time as selling me the power conditioner tried to sell me 2 - $200.00 power cords for my 2 amplifiers. He said I would hear an instant improvement. I asked him "why do I need $200.00 power cords if my amps are plugged into the power conditioner which is already filtering any EMI or RMF interference out? His response was "you don't but I like to plug my amp directly into the wall and leave the conditioner for ancillary equipment". Okay, so I asked if the power cords will cancel the interference picked up in the cheap lumex cables in the wall? He said "don't worry about what happens behind the walls". In other words, he didn't know.

 

Then I asked about XLR Cables to connect the DAC Magic to my preamp. Again they tried to sell me a pair of 3 foot XLR cables that came close in price to the DAC. I asked what made these any better than the $10.00 cables I could buy at Monoprice? He said that they have better shielding and can reject interference better. Again, he didn't really know. I told him the reason you use XLR cables in the first place is because it has a third wire in the cable that cancels out induced interference so shielding in an XLR cable isn't necessary.

 

Anyway, I forgot what the point I was trying to make was? I think my browser must have picked up that same Trojan Greg's is infected with. I digress, I'm going to zero out my hard drive now.