The thing with audiophile networking equipment... where are the proofs?

[sine]

Dear audiophile community!

 

It seems to be quite the business to sell specialized networking hardware (cables, switches & routers, data stream cleaners) for the audiophile minded. I also noticed that this topic seems to divide the community. Unfortunately I find it very hard to build my own educated opinion because most of the postings, blogs, vlogs etc. are opinion based and lack any scientific method to quantify the change in the audio signal and thereby attempt to really proof their point, instead of preaching. If there is a difference then it should be measurable, shouldn't it? So where are these reproducible tests and measurements and proofs?

 

Kind regards
sine

[AnotherSpin]

2 hours ago, sine said:

Dear audiophile community!

 

It seems to be quite the business to sell specialized networking hardware (cables, switches & routers, data stream cleaners) for the audiophile minded. I also noticed that this topic seems to divide the community. Unfortunately I find it very hard to build my own educated opinion because most of the postings, blogs, vlogs etc. are opinion based and lack any scientific method to quantify the change in the audio signal and thereby attempt to really proof their point, instead of preaching. If there is a difference then it should be measurable, shouldn't it? So where are these reproducible tests and measurements and proofs?

 

Kind regards
sine

 

This whole love of music thing is very confusing indeed. For example, some people like Wagner and others prefer Die Antwoord. All this is strictly opinion based with total absence of any scientific method and slightest attempt to really prove any point, instead of preaching 😎

[llatpoh76]

Click/bait topic worthy of that big red (Ignore this topic) button...

[Savolax]

3 hours ago, sine said:

I also noticed that this topic seems to divide the community.

It sure does.

3 hours ago, sine said:

Unfortunately I find it very hard to build my own educated opinion because most of the postings, blogs, vlogs etc. are opinion based and lack any scientific method to quantify the change in the audio signal and thereby attempt to really proof their point, instead of preaching.

Would you find it easy to build your own educated opinion if the most postings were based on just scientific methods made by others? Would it educate your opinion if you made your own research (subjective, and objective too, if applicable!)

Say, you did your own research and found differences only subjectively, how would you educate people who emphasize "objectivity" but are not interested making their own research?

3 hours ago, sine said:

If there is a difference then it should be measurable, shouldn't it? So where are these reproducible tests and measurements and proofs?

I think it should be measurable. It's just.. are we measuring right things, with right gear?

On the forum there is a topic where some ethernet cards were measured recently. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/64138-best-ethernet-cards-for-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1218015

Not much of a substantial difference how I see as a layman.

 

I am sure some people who own the "hifi card" would recommend it based on their subjective listening experience albeit the measured results made there.

So I think here we are at the starting point of never ending debate. ♾️

 

[PeterG]

4 hours ago, Savolax said:

I am sure some people who own the "hifi card" would recommend it based on their subjective listening experience albeit the measured results made there.

So I think here we are at the starting point of never ending debate. ♾️

 

Of course, if someone showed you "proof" that a certain product was better, but you could not hear a difference, I hope you would ignore the "proof"...  I see you are a brand new member.  If you surf around this site you'll find countless debates on the general difference between people who describe themselves as objectivists and people who describe themselves as subjectivists.  Whatever way you think about this stuff, I encourage you to take an empirical approach and listen before you commit to big $--borrow gear from your local dealer before you buy, or buy from someone with a generous return policy.  Good luck!

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, PeterG said:

Of course, if someone showed you "proof" that a certain product was better, but you could not hear a difference, I hope you would ignore the "proof"...

Why?  If someone shows me scientific proof of something, I am probably willing to accept it.  If I could not hear a difference based on a situation supported by the proof, I would regard it as subjectively subliminal.

[pkane2001]

8 hours ago, llatpoh76 said:

Click/bait topic worthy of that big red (Ignore this topic) button...

 

How dare the OP post a request for objective evidence in an Objective forum??? Ignore him, nothing good ever comes out of a discussion about science or the objective approach ;)

 

 

8 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

This whole love of music thing is very confusing indeed. For example, some people like Wagner and others prefer Die Antwoord. All this is strictly opinion based with total absence of any scientific method and slightest attempt to really prove any point, instead of preaching 😎

 

Amazingly, the topic of networks has nothing to do with the love of music and everything to do with science and engineering. 

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

Of course, if someone showed you "proof" that a certain product was better, but you could not hear a difference, I hope you would ignore the "proof"...  I see you are a brand new member.  If you surf around this site you'll find countless debates on the general difference between people who describe themselves as objectivists and people who describe themselves as subjectivists.  Whatever way you think about this stuff, I encourage you to take an empirical approach and listen before you commit to big $--borrow gear from your local dealer before you buy, or buy from someone with a generous return policy.  Good luck!

 

Since we are talking specifically about network equipment here and not audio equipment it is a really strange concept to think that a network should have a "SQ". In my mind the best network has **no sound**. The highest quality commercial networking equipment has been engineered to physical standards which are simply out of the range of the capabilities of any audiophile company. That said we don't need 800Gbe at home nor for audio. My own **listening tests** identified common ground loops as well as common mode noise transmitted through copper ethernet cables as something that *can* affect "SQ'. This is trivially eliminated by using fiberoptic ethernet.

 

There is no need to buy network gear from a local audio dealer!!!

[AnotherSpin]

6 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Amazingly, the topic of networks has nothing to do with the love of music and everything to do with science and engineering. 

 

Look at the name of this forum. Would you say that audiophilia as such has nothing to do with music?

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Look at the name of this forum. Would you say that audiophilia as such has nothing to do with music?

I don’t romanticize network switches. Don’t get me wrong, there’s certain mathematical beauty there, but it’s not Wagner.

[AnotherSpin]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I don’t romanticize network switches. Don’t get me wrong, there’s certain mathematical beauty there, but it’s not Wagner.

 

The topic of what to listen vs. how to listen is a recurring theme on the forum, and there is little point in adding to it. 

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

The topic of what to listen vs. how to listen is a recurring theme on the forum, and there is little point in adding to it. 

Interesting. Is that the only point worth discussing, or are there other things beyond listening, such as, for example, science, mathematics, and engineering and design in your worldview?

[AnotherSpin]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

Interesting. Is that the only point worth discussing, or are there other things beyond music, such as, for example, science, mathematics, and engineering and design in your worldview?

 

Didn't know we are on mathematics forum. 

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Didn't know we are on mathematics forum. 

No, but you’re in an Objective forum. And objectively, network switches don’t make music.

[AnotherSpin]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

No, but you’re in an Objective forum. And objectively, network switches don’t make music.

 

I am on a forum which is called Audiophile Style. Am I wrong it is all about love to music? Of course, people discussing here cables or stands, but it is all about the ultimate goal of delivering and enjoying the art of music, isn't it?

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

I am on a forum which is called Audiophile Style. Am I wrong it is all about love to music? Of course, people discussing here cables or stands, but it is all about the ultimate goal of delivering and enjoying the art of music, isn't it?

 

Network equipment is not about the love of music, no matter how many times you repeat it. Again, you're in the objective part of the forum, regardless of what the name of the site is. Do you have anything objective to bring to the discussion of networks delivering the 'joy of music'? 

 

[AnotherSpin]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Network equipment is not about the love of music, no matter how many times you repeat it. Again, you're in the objective part of the forum, regardless of what the name of the site is. Do you have anything objective to bring to the discussion of networks delivering the 'joy of music'? 

 

 

You win, ok? 🤣

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

You win, ok? 🤣

 

Awesome 🙃. Here's some (objective) light reading for you:

 

https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/privatforen/thomas-michael-rudolph-tmr/651284-messungen-von-ethernet-infrastruktur-switches-nur-lesen

 

Eric demonstrates here how some of the better known "audiophile" network switches and cards actually make things significantly worse. Not from audibility perspective, but at the basic networking noise/jitter level, even before the digital signal enters a DAC. Would you say that this extra noise and jitter make music more enjoyable? 🤨

[AnotherSpin]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Awesome 🙃. Here's some (objective) light reading for you:

 

https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/privatforen/thomas-michael-rudolph-tmr/651284-messungen-von-ethernet-infrastruktur-switches-nur-lesen

 

Eric demonstrates here how some of the better known "audiophile" network switches and cards actually make things significantly worse. Not from audibility perspective, but at the basic networking noise/jitter level, even before the digital signal enters a DAC. Would you say that this extra noise and jitter make music more enjoyable? 🤨

 

I would say that less or more noise and jitter will not make the music less or more enjoyable. Some of my most memorable musical experiences have taken place in the midst of mediocre audio environment, while there have been many occasions when music played on relatively high quality equipment has left me indifferent.

 

But again, I see no point in developing the discussion further. This discussion has been going on here continuously for many years. If you see a direct link between reducing jitter and improving musical enjoyment, so be it. I don't want to convince or dissuade you of anything. Have a good Wagn... Jitter!

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, AnotherSpin said:

I don't want to convince or dissuade you of anything. Have a good Wagn... Jitter!

 

On most days I prefer a good dose of jitter with Rachmaninov than no jitter with Wagner 😎

 

[AnotherSpin]

54 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

On most days I prefer a good dose of jitter with Rachmaninov than no jitter with Wagner 😎

 

 

I'm generally indifferent to Rachmaninoff, except perhaps only the Piano Concerto No.3. But not with the Russian/Soviet school of performing, too much drooling and sobbing makes me allergic. And I love Wagner, with or without jitter, whatever. The best available recordings of the Ring are from the 40s, 50s or 60s at the latest, so there are only big doubts about the audio quality.

[pkane2001]

Just now, AnotherSpin said:

 

I'm generally indifferent to Rachmaninoff, except perhaps only the Piano Concerto No.3. But not with the Russian/Soviet school of performing, too much drooling and sobbing makes me allergic. And I love Wagner, with or without jitter, whatever. The best available recordings of the Ring are from the 40s, 50s or 60s at the latest, so there are only big doubts about the audio quality.

 

Ahh, so we finally found the part where we really disagree 😀  

 

[AnotherSpin]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Ahh, so we finally found the part where we really disagree 😀  

 

 

Perfectly fine with me. I hate being agree with others... 😝

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Perfectly fine with me. I hate being agree with others... 😝

Isn’t agreeing generally against the rules on the internet? 😁

[PeterG]

14 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Why?  If someone shows me scientific proof of something, I am probably willing to accept it.  If I could not hear a difference based on a situation supported by the proof, I would regard it as subjectively subliminal.

I also generally accept scientific proof.  But proof in these cases is very hard to define.  Just for example, a solid state amp is almost certain to have less distortion and noise than a comparable tube amp, but that does not mean the solid state amp sounds better.  IsoAcoustics, Nordost, AudioQuest et al have beautiful charts on their website, but a civilian has no way of evaluating their meaningfulness.  Unlike other areas of inquiry, we do not have a guaranteed set of criteria.

 

More importantly--noise reduction is expensive and complicated--I've added over $10K and multiple boxes and wires.  I could have made an audible upgrade to another component for that price, so I'm looking for more than subliminal improvement as a return on the investment.