Audio reproduction is a matter of taste?

[fas42]

Part of it is habit ... could you imagine suddenly having your lounge room TV replaced by a 21" B&W CRT set, and being told that's the way it's going to be indefinitely, 🙂 ... eventually, you would adjust - but the initial shock of how much has been lost would be something - but the world lived with that, and 'worse', for decades.

 

And it can go in the other direction - the audio equivalent of that low information video channel is replaced by something that gets a lot closer to being "immersive" - there's nothing really special happening, merely that the mechanism is doing a lot better job of feeding your senses with good, solid data ... then the habit of wanting to spice it up, etc, just evaporates; it serves no purpose.

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Here is what Joe Whip has to say about a power cord:

 

 

 

"What really shocked me was the sound of the piano. With the strip in place, piano recordings sounded even more like the real thing, especially the upper registers which had a purer smoother sound. To me, listening to a system fully powered by these Essential Sound Products, you are more fully able to hear what your individual components and system are capable of producing. You get a clearer, smoother yet more detailed and dynamic sound, much more like the real thing, at least as far as I could imagine from my system and room." 

[MarkusBarkus]

I'm not sure *intellectually* where I stand on the accuracy issue.
 

I think it's possible to create a convincing version of music in the home...an enjoyable experience with enough detail, timber, etc. to satisfy the mind (my mind at least). I find that enjoyable and I'm pretty sure it's the mind running the show here.
 

I *think* my system sounds pretty good. Some friends do too. But I never think I'm actually in the hall or cafe. Too many other queues are missing.

Maybe that's a lack of imagination on my part. But I'm OK with all that. 
 

Where I notice this internal reaction most is visually.

 

Seeing those high-zoot 4K or 8K...or however many Ks we gots now around here...in the TV shops. The depth in the picture is amazing. Color is groovy (I refuse to give up on this word). And so sharp.

Abracadabra...they reach out and grab ya.
 

To me, this is a very stimulating illusion. Very enjoyable. But it does not look real (to me). Again, probably (one of) my defects at play, because it is very interesting, very stimulating. Maybe even accurate. But real? Not to me. But I'm OK with that.

[John Dyson]

5 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Here is what Joe Whip has to say about a power cord:

 

 

 

"What really shocked me was the sound of the piano. With the strip in place, piano recordings sounded even more like the real thing, especially the upper registers which had a purer smoother sound. To me, listening to a system fully powered by these Essential Sound Products, you are more fully able to hear what your individual components and system are capable of producing. You get a clearer, smoother yet more detailed and dynamic sound, much more like the real thing, at least as far as I could imagine from my system and room." 

The problem with 'sound' isn't just taste, but like the problem I have -- HEARING.   Oddly, I don't even know when my hearing is working or not.

So, what might sound good for me (like a hearing-aid) might not sound good to someone else.

Of course, the ultimate is the sound of the instrument -- but what is in memory might have come from when hearing was working well.

 

John

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

 

 

In his review of a power supply entitled "Reality quest" Ray-dude concludes:

 

"Right out of the gate, it was obvious that DC4 was taking all the goodness of the DC3 and kicking up several notches: faster and more controlled dynamics (to put it mildly), breathtaking resolution and clarity and control, a true physicality and presence in the bass, and (most importantly for me) a remarkable holographic sense of space that spreads from behind the speakers to next to me on my sofa, and even above me. If DC3 makes instruments real and physically present, DC4 brings the performance into the room and up next to you, creating a hologram of the space of the performance that must be experienced to believe.

 

I typically listen to small ensemble works, looking for that jazz club or coffee house live music experience. With the DC4, complex orchestral works are now a completely different experience. The sense of being in the hall (or at the conductor's podium, depending on the recording) is absolutely intoxicating. The resolution and dynamics almost allow you to pick out individual performers (like you can in a live performance)...so close but even this small taste gives a sense of intimacy and participation in the performance that is incredibly moving and intoxicating."

[JoeWhip]

Yeah, and guess what, it is still true. I will have a LIM here next week for a formal review and comparison with my OG. As for the power cords, Jim Anderson hears the same thing as I do. So I am not the only delusional one out there.

[PeterSt]

As an audio manufacturer you can not depend on taste - especially not your own. Besides, any applied taste in my own music room would be killing for me, as all will sound the same. And thus, totally neutral is the devise.

 

I really don't see what can be the problem with envisioning how an instrument should sound through reproduction, never mind you never heard the instrument in real life; there's sufficient consistency in numerous parameters to know whether it is wrong(-ish) or right(-ish). Relatively, we can work towards more right(-ish).

It takes a lot of time though (as in 3+ hours per day for listening) and after the many years doing this, I am 100% confident it still can improve.

 

About grand piano's: the other day I had a visitor who plays the viola in an orchestra (who was educated by my father in the conservatorium, but alas). He played in very many concert halls, and could hear in which concert hall which recording was taken from the random classical albums I presented him. He told me he had all his life been searching for a well-representing music system, but could never find it and was always fooled by fake salesmen (who appears to know sh*t about music reproduction, according to him). So apparently what I have over here could be better to some degree than at least he was used to, but that he could hear these concert halls ... I was astonished.  He was always correct !

(and he was floored himself that such a thing could exist).

 

 

I still never met Mark Knopfler in live nor did I attend a concert from Dire Straits. Still since 5 years or so I am confident that I now have "tuned in" his real voice. I will repeat: there are so many parameters that allow you to think that and it is all about consistency. The major tell is that you start to see someone singing or playing. Not because you like to see that, but because you can tell / know. This is a bit similar to what Chris told in his Denafrips review. And the fun: later there appears always to be more. Example:

Once you are pretty sure how Neil Young will sound for real (when he would be live in front of you), there may apear this next dimension that you start to see that he is never at the same distance from the microphone. This could be stepping away - this could be turning his head but it is either of that. A next step in my reproduction quality could be that I can tell which of the two it is (stepping back or turning head).

 

Out of everyone, a few years ago I started to see Charlie Watts being happy behind his drums. He even moved.

I suppose I used a wrong cable there.
Can't check that one out any more.

 

[opus101]

So I am not the only delusional one out there.

 

I don't believe @hopkins is saying you're delusional.

[JoeWhip]

Sure he is, only politely. I am ok with that as I hear with my ears and brain and no one else’s.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

 

 

In this review, Chris noted:

 

"Through the Boulder 866 / SR1a combination the electric guitar sounds appropriately dirty, grungy and full of fantastic distortion. As both Tom petty and Mike Campbell start and stop / re-enter the track, the little noises before hitting the strings are all audible and bring the listen that much closer to being in the studio. For a recording that I never considered HiFI, I sure enjoyed all that's captured on it and reproduced through this Boulder amp. In fact, Petty's voice at the very start of the track, "All right here we go ..." Sounds so real it's like my headphones are plugged into the soundboard of the recording studio rather than the outputs of the Boulder 866 Integrated. This is what high end audio is all about to me. Bringing me one step, or two steps closer to the real thing. "

[opus101]

Just now, JoeWhip said:

Sure he is, only politely. I am ok with that as I hear with my ears and brain and no one else’s.

 

If he is, then I've misunderstood his argument. To me he's saying 'How can all these comments be only about taste when the vocabulary used includes words like 'real' ?'

[JoeWhip]

Well, condescending at least. Of course it is a matter of taste. We use language in an attempt to describe what we hear. Same with food and wine reviews. I don’t see hard and fast objective truths in audio as they go through our unique filters. Which is why I see no point in arguing about tubes v. SS etc. pointless.

[Iving]

Flogging a lame pony.

 

If "real" is read as "convincing", there's no case to answer.

 

You have to catch reviewers talking about "accuracy" to trip them over. But we've flogged that nag too.

 

I admit Chris's references to "real" in reviews don't stand well against his challenges on p.1 - the way I read all the respective meanings anyway.

 

Are we done with "accuracy" and "taste"? I don't see any significant dissent.

[opus101]

Just now, JoeWhip said:

 Same with food and wine reviews. 

 

I used to be quite into wine, many years ago. Read plenty of reviews - I don't recall any saying 'Wow, this wine tastes like its really made from grapes' or 'I have never tasted grapes closer to real than in this'. Rather the reviews tended to talk about notes of musk or chocolate or blackcurrant leaves. So descriptive of the taste sensations, no talk of being 'real' flavours.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

 

 

In this review of the Pontus gmgraves claims "This is the Best DAC that this reviewer has ever heard! I was able to A/B the Pontus against some formidable competition, but I have also listened at great length to such DACs as the MSB Diamond 4 with outboard clock, the dCS Vivaldi, and the Pontus blows the all out of the water."

 

What's interesting is that his review is based on his own recordings:

 

" As most readers here know, I have a rather large collection of my own master recordings. I made these recordings using my own equipment and they are comprised of a surprisingly eclectic range of musical genres. I have recordings of major symphony orchestras, string ensembles, jazz and swing bands, small jazz ensembles recorded in a variety of venues from symphony halls to intimate nightclubs to winery tasting rooms to private homes."

 

Based on his experience of the recorded music, he can evaluate the performance (accuracy?) of the DAC, for example the soundstage:

 

" All DACs do a credible job (mostly due to the inherent extreme channel separation of the digital recording process) of this. But there is sound-staging and there is sound-staging, and the Pontus just does it better than the others in this test. Having been there, I have a vivid mental picture of how the musicians were deployed, and I can close my eyes and pinpoint every instrument, not just to their relative area within the sound-field, but specifically to the exact spot occupied by each musician! "

[JoeWhip]

Musk, chocolate , black current leaves are not flavors? We  use language to describe what we hear, at times, inartfully. A wine reviewer does the same thing to describe what they taste. I compare what I hear to what I have experienced, like the sound of a piano. A wine reviewer knows what chocolate tastes like, at least to him, no? Same damn thing. This isn’t hard friends.

[opus101]

5 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

If "real" is read as "convincing", there's no case to answer.

 

That's how I read it. Perception is reality.

[JoeWhip]

Watching Spurs losing to Palace. Time to move on.

[opus101]

Just now, JoeWhip said:

Musk, chocolate , black current leaves are not flavors? 

 

Sure they are, I used 'taste sensations' in my post. 

[JoeWhip]

So I guess we should use the term aural sensations then? OK.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

 

In this review Chris states:

 

"Listening to my beloved Three Blind Mice Supreme Collection 1500 from 44.1 to DSD512 through the ARIES G2.1 was fabulous. I have no doubt the G2.1 is a reference level component on par with the best digital source components available. For example, playing the Isao Suzuki Trio's album Blow Up through the ARIES G2.1 and the Terminator revealed everything from the micro details at the heist frequencies to delivering the heft and texture of the lowest cello frequencies. BY the time I passed one minute into the first track, I didn't need to listen any longer to render my unequivocal opinion about the ARIES G2.1, but why mess up a good thing. I listened to the entire album uninterrupted, transported to Aoi Studio in Tokyo, Japan in 1977. It's hard to believe how much information is on old recordings. After using the ARIES G2.1 for several weeks, it's not hard to believe that this information is there for the taking, or should I say listening. As long as one's components are in the same class as the G2.1, it's all possible."

[opus101]

1 minute ago, JoeWhip said:

So I guess we should use the term aural sensations then? OK.

 

If it suits your taste, go right ahead  I'm not claiming its more accurate though.

[mfsoa]

25 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

I *think* my system sounds pretty good

I love it! Perfectly captures what we want out of our systems.

 

To those who are trying to accurately replay the sound on the disc -The disc has no sound. You are trying to replay what you think is the sound on the disc. Very different...

 

Since no two people think that a disc should sound the same way, it then comes down to personal preference and boom - it's all subjective ultimately.

[MarkusBarkus]

3 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Watching Spurs losing to Palace. Time to move on.

Thanks for the reminder! Go Spurs! 

[JoeWhip]

I am out after this. Listening to music and audio is entirely a subjective experience. When I say something is more accurate or real, it is so to ME, maybe not you. By all means, if you don’t like what people write, don’t read it. Doesn’t matter to me. Bickering here is like arguing about the shape of the earth, pointless, although I do enough of that in one of my other “jobs”.