The two home problem

[Browniesbane]

A couple of weeks ago, I was asking about how to get access to my music library on an innuous into an iPod, but it occurred to me I may have a bigger problem coming, a small vacation home where I would spend long periods. How does one easily maintain a fully synched music library in two different locations aside from uploading everything to the cloud. 

[Dan Gravell]

I'm interested - what is wrong with uploading it to a storage service online, then syncing the two locations to that?

[Kal Rubinson]

Two NAS drives that are synched over Internet.

[Kal Rubinson]

8 hours ago, Browniesbane said:

How does one easily maintain a fully synched music library in two different locations aside from uploading everything to the cloud. 

Two NAS drives that are synched over Internet.

1 minute ago, Dan Gravell said:

I'm interested - what is wrong with uploading it to a storage service online, then syncing the two locations to that?

Depends on library size.  Large libraries are too expensive to store online. 

[Dan Gravell]

2 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Depends on library size.  Large libraries are too expensive to store online.

 

Agree in principle, but there are a lot of "it depends" there... how large is large, file formats etc...

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Dan Gravell said:

Agree in principle, but there are a lot of "it depends" there... how large is large, file formats etc...

Yes, I agree in principle and it always "depends."  I have looked at cloud options and, so far, they are too expensive (subjective) for my large collection (subjective) with a wide array of formats (subjective).  It is also too slow (subjective) for the initial upload and too slow (subjective) for a full download/restore with my current ethernet connections.  I wish it were otherwise and, some day, it will be.

 

If my remote NAS fails beyond the ability of RAID recovery or needs to be replaced, it goes in the car, back to home and, after repair/replacement, is restored by direct wired connection to the home NAS.  Vice versa, too.

[firedog]

Based on my not extensive knowledge, online storage is not cheap if you have a big library.

If it was me, I'd make portable backups, and just update each location and the backup drives as necessary. You can move the portable backup with you as you travel between the 2 locations.

Of course, if you have a very large collection, what Kal described above would seem to be the best bet.

[bluesman]

I see no reason to duplicate a large library when it's readily accessible where it lives.  I stream my files from our home to wherever we happen to be (as long as there's internet access) with JRiver Media Center. There's a web server built into it that's accessible using an alphanumeric access key unique to each instance.  My main JRMC instance is on my Win10 PC, and I use that access key for my own WAN access.  I also run an instance on a Raspberry Pi so my son can listen to my files wherever he is, using his own access key.  Before I adopted JRiver, I used Foobar2000 for this.  With the foo_upnp plugin, it also works extremely well. It's not quite as simple as JRMC to set up and use, but it's not far behind.

 

I do back up my library on line.  Yes, it took days to upload it all - but the download was fast enough for me the only time I needed to restore.  I use Livedrive (based in London) because they truly offer unlimited storage for one very reasonable price.  They also let you back up unlimited network storage for a reasonable annual add-on charge. Their app monitors whatever directories you select, and it synchs whenever a change is made.  It's been running 24/7/365 for me for over 10 years without a hitch.  They also provide great customer service.  You have to send them a message whenever you're changing hardware, so they can "disconnect" the old and connect the new.  Their response time has been hours at the most.

[firedog]

38 minutes ago, bluesman said:

I see no reason to duplicate a large library when it's readily accessible where it lives.  I stream my files from our home to wherever we happen to be (as long as there's internet access) with JRiver Media Center. There's a web server built into it that's accessible using an alphanumeric access key unique to each instance.  My main JRMC instance is on my Win10 PC, and I use that access key for my own WAN access.  I also run an instance on a Raspberry Pi so my son can listen to my files wherever he is, using his own access key.  Before I adopted JRiver, I used Foobar2000 for this.  With the foo_upnp plugin, it also works extremely well. It's not quite as simple as JRMC to set up and use, but it's not far behind.

 

I do back up my library on line.  Yes, it took days to upload it all - but the download was fast enough for me the only time I needed to restore.  I use Livedrive (based in London) because they truly offer unlimited storage for one very reasonable price.  They also let you back up unlimited network storage for a reasonable annual add-on charge. Their app monitors whatever directories you select, and it synchs whenever a change is made.  It's been running 24/7/365 for me for over 10 years without a hitch.  They also provide great customer service.  You have to send them a message whenever you're changing hardware, so they can "disconnect" the old and connect the new.  Their response time has been hours at the most.

That makes a lot of sense, but I'd hesitate to leave my server/router on for such a use if I was away from home for more than a few days. Just don't like the idea of something unattended being left on and running for extended periods of time. 

[Kal Rubinson]

38 minutes ago, bluesman said:

 I stream my files from our home to wherever we happen to be (as long as there's internet access) with JRiver Media Center. There's a web server built into it that's accessible using an alphanumeric access key unique to each instance.  My main JRMC instance is on my Win10 PC, and I use that access key for my own WAN access.

I do understand that one can do this but how does this work with multichannel DSD?  Gapless? High bit-rate multichannel PCM?

40 minutes ago, bluesman said:

I do back up my library on line.  Yes, it took days to upload it all - but the download was fast enough for me the only time I needed to restore.

How large a download was it and how long is fast enough?  

42 minutes ago, bluesman said:

I see no reason to duplicate a large library when it's readily accessible where it lives. 

My duplicate library takes the place of the cloud storage but I'd consider a change, if feasible.

[bluesman]

2 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I do understand that one can do this but how does this work with multichannel DSD?  Gapless? High bit-rate multichannel PCM?

How large a download was it and how long is fast enough?  

My duplicate library takes the place of the cloud storage but I'd consider a change, if feasible.

I haven’t tried MC, but JRMC lets you choose whether and how to transcode streamed files - so I assume with good reason (but haven’t confirmed) that you can stream in native format any files JRiver will play.

 

Your download speed determines time to restoration.  I restored about a TB of FLACs and high res photo files in about 6 hours with the nominal 50 MBPS download speed we had at the time.

 

If your duplicate library is geographically and electronically separate from the main one, at least one instance is safe from total physical or computer-driven destructive event affecting the other. But you still have to maintain currency manually between the two with every change in content. I did this for a few years, swapping drives between NAS and safe deposit box weekly.  It gets old quickly.

[bluesman]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

That makes a lot of sense, but I'd hesitate to leave my server/router on for such a use if I was away from home for more than a few days. Just don't like the idea of something unattended being left on and running for extended periods of time. 

My NAS, gateways, and multiple computers run 24/7.  Pre-Covid, we went abroad for 2+ weeks at a time at least 3 or 4 times a year without a problem.  Every few years, a power failure shut everything down - but the worst that happened was my inability to listen to my music in JRiver on my phone or tablet while in Sydney.  And I can always listen to my Livedrive backup if my home server goes down - I just can’t use my usual GUI to locate and open files.  But the folders are easy to navigate by name, so this isn’t a big deal either.

[R1200CL]

21 hours ago, Browniesbane said:

How does one easily maintain a fully synched music library in two different locations aside from uploading everything to the cloud. 

Should we understand that you have limited internet access to none at the vacation home ?

If you don’t like to use a service like Jottacloud, You can ether use NAS as suggested (Qnap has nice SW doing this), or using software on your computer will be able to sync. 
 

How big is you library ?

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

I haven’t tried MC, but JRMC lets you choose whether and how to transcode streamed files - so I assume with good reason (but haven’t confirmed) that you can stream in native format any files JRiver will play.

Is this based on DLNA?  If so, there are significant restrictions.

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

Your download speed determines time to restoration.  I restored about a TB of FLACs and high res photo files in about 6 hours with the nominal 50 MBPS download speed we had at the time.

Not bad.  Was that because of a disc failure or some other loss?  

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

If your duplicate library is geographically and electronically separate from the main one, at least one instance is safe from total physical or computer-driven destructive event affecting the other.

Yup.  One in NYC and one in CT.

 

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

But you still have to maintain currency manually between the two with every change in content. I did this for a few years, swapping drives between NAS and safe deposit box weekly.  It gets old quickly.

I did that initially.  Now, I just update them incrementally over the Internet as I add new content and/or modified content to either one.

[bluesman]

26 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Is this based on DLNA?  If so, there are significant restrictions.

Not bad.  Was that because of a disc failure or some other loss?  

 

Yup.  One in NYC and one in CT.

 

I did that initially.  Now, I just update them incrementally over the Internet as I add new content and/or modified content to either one.

Foobar2000 uses DLNA for web streaming, but I don’t think JRiver does.  It has a DLNA server so it can play to DLNA renderers. But I’m pretty sure that MCWS (Media Center Web Service), which plays to JRMC clients, is not DLNA.

 

The failure was mine.  Somehow, very late at night, I managed to delete an entire partition when I thought I was just clearing a media library of its content. I discovered my error the next day.  And, of course, RAID had followed suit on the mirror - so it was all gone.  I tried every data recovery trick and program I could find short of the very costly services that retrieve content from residual magnetic patterns on the disc.

 

If you can write to your disks from either location, you can play from one machine to the other the same way.  

[Browniesbane]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Should we understand that you have limited internet access to none at the vacation home ?

If you don’t like to use a service like Jottacloud, You can ether use NAS as suggested (Qnap has nice SW doing this), or using software on your computer will be able to sync. 
 

How big is you library ?

Not large for this group 7500 tracks, 232gb.

[Kal Rubinson]

9 hours ago, bluesman said:

Foobar2000 uses DLNA for web streaming, but I don’t think JRiver does.  It has a DLNA server so it can play to DLNA renderers. But I’m pretty sure that MCWS (Media Center Web Service), which plays to JRMC clients, is not DLNA.

I will look into MCWS but, since the remote NAS is required for security as backup, I sees no reason to ignore it and play via MCWS.

9 hours ago, bluesman said:

And, of course, RAID had followed suit on the mirror - so it was all gone.

Ooof.  There should be a way to prevent that but it is why I do my synching manually.  If I rip or download files at one location, I add them to my local JRMC library and play/edit for metadata.  Later, after confirming that all's well,  I send the files to the other location.  Same for deletions.  Do it local, wait and then do the remote.  No need to tote drives.  

(I also keep a local b/u off line just in case I do something stupid.)

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I also keep a local b/u off line just in case I do something stupid.

I had a local BU HDD.   But I’d just put hundreds of large (RAW and hi res JPEG) image files from a trip on the NAS that day - and I hadn’t added them to the BU drive yet.  I thought I was just deleting the media partition from my travel drive using the directory tree in the photo editor.........but it took out the NAS partition as well.

 

Lessons for us all:

• learn what each function does in each program you use
• make sure you know by testing first with disposable files
• when in doubt, go back and read the documentation again before clicking
• make sure your BU has completed and is good before deleting anything - ever!
• when in doubt, leave the originals in place and add more storage to computers, NAS, cameras (buy extra cards), etc
• add twice the capacity you think you need, plus 50% for luck 🙃

This was the only time I’ve truly & permanently screwed up computer files since I started programming on an IBM 1620 in 1965.  I once ran my punch cards through the reader in mid-summer without letting them sit in the air conditioned computer room for a few hours to lose the added thickness caused by high humidity in dorms without A/C.  Instant confetti ensued!

[R1200CL]

15 hours ago, Browniesbane said:

Not large for this group 7500 tracks, 232gb.

Can’t you just get a flash drive ? (Or huge size memory phone )

Problem solved, or ?

[stefano_mbp]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:37 AM, Browniesbane said:

Not large for this group 7500 tracks, 232gb

For that size I should get a M.2 500gb ssd ($60/70) and a case for it ($15/20) with usb3 connection. Very unobtrusive, small but fast enough and quite unbreakable.

Use then some sw to keep it synchronized with your “master” library.

I use FreeFileSync to backup my library on two different hdd, the copy can be configured as incremental therefore after the first time the copy will last very few minutes 

[jcbenten]

6 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

For that size I should get a M.2 500gb ssd ($60/70) and a case for it ($15/20) with usb3 connection. Very unobtrusive, small but fast enough and quite unbreakable.

Use then some sw to keep it synchronized with your “master” library.

I use FreeFileSync to backup my library on two different hdd, the copy can be configured as incremental therefore after the first time the copy will last very few minutes 

 

Exactly...actually get three. Primary at home, backup @ 2nd home and the third to travel back and forth.

[Browniesbane]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:49 AM, jcbenten said:

 

Exactly...actually get three. Primary at home, backup @ 2nd home and the third to travel back and forth.

Thanks,  for me transportable media seems  the way to go.  It’s a little complicated by the fact that my home system is an innuous , not a regular computer,  while I would use a Mac as a server for the second system, but I should be able to duplicate the backup drive from the innuous. 
 

I’ll do some experimenting. Even before I need a server for a second place, it might be useful to set up the Mac as a backup server in case of a hardware failure to the innuous or one of my network players.
 

[stefano_mbp]

Here you can find instructions on how to access you Innuos from a Mac (or Windows)

http://www.innuos.com/en/go/manual-managing-server-accessing-files