The girl from Ipanema – so what key do you play it in?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

 

Who knows this sort of stuff? I guess musicians.

The girl from Ipanema apparently turns 50 and is reported to be the second most recorded song in pop music history.

An interesting look at the song and people behind "the girl from Ipanema". An even more interesting look at cultural differences behind-the-scenes, choice of key, inclusion of blues counter melody and different chord progressions. A dip into bossa nova and cool jazz...

 

Martina da Silva is the voice of the Girl from Ipanema! http://martinadasilvamusic.com/

0:00 Introduction

2:42 A brief history of Bossa Nova

8:35 Melodic sequences

13:25 The Blues countermelody

17:43 Harmony and ambiguity

24:29 Bridge comparison Ribeiro vs. Gilberto

27:25 Context and poetic deletion

[firedog]

This got me curious.
Apparently there's no comprehensive stats on the most covered song. Some lists claim it's "Yesterday"; others say "Summertime", and so on.

I did read that apparently between 1965 and 2000 the song Yesterday in one of it's forms had been played on radio 7 million times by US DJs.

Nice royalties for Lennon and McCartney.....not to mention the publisher.

[JoeWhip]

C. It is easier that way.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, JoeWhip said:

C. It is easier that way.

Yeh, F is apparently the "American" version supposedly popularised by people like Frank Sinatra and D flat the original way. Stevie wonder apparently sang it in F but did the D flat version when he performed in Brazil. Go figure

[JoeWhip]

I was a little kid when this tune came out. I remember my dad had to add it to their set list. After about a year, he came to hate that song. Then later came feelings.

[bluesman]

Jobim and Gilberto both did it in Db.  Here it is on a classic album with Stan Getz -

 

 

15 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

C. It is easier that way.

That's not actually the case - the modulations in the bridge are sufficiently different to challenge most amateurs equally in almost any key including C.  As a professional musician, I've had to play tunes in keys far from the original, in order to accommodate a vocalist. You can't be a working sideman without the ability to play any tune in any key.  As house band leader at a small jazz and blues club that hosts jam sessions, I often have to call out the changes during a tune we have to play in other than the original key because a guest jammer can only play it in an "easy" key.

 

There's a famous story about Miles when he went to Julliard.  A faculty member asked him "where the trumpet is" when the band's playing a song in E.  He replied, "It's in the f*ckin' case".

[JoeWhip]

My dad used to write all the songs out in a fakebook so he always had them for other musicians he had not familiar with them. He used to transpose them on the fly. He was really good at that. Near the end of his career, with the fancy new keyboards he could play everything in C if he wanted to and it came out in any key he wanted. I couldn’t do the stuff he could but my son the singer, songwriter and keyboardist has the same ability. It just skipped over me.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, JoeWhip said:

My dad used to write all the songs out in a fakebook so he always had them for other musicians he had not familiar with them. He used to transpose them on the fly. He was really good at that. Near the end of his career, with the fancy new keyboards he could play everything in C if he wanted to and it came out in any key he wanted. I couldn’t do the stuff he could but my son the singer, songwriter and keyboardist has the same ability. It just skipped over me.

Today’s electronic fake books will transpose for you - choose the desired key and the score changes to it.  The good ones tell you the original key(s) and open to them.  In the old days, fake books were hand scored, illegal (because no royalties were paid) and subject to confiscation.  Those who sold them were also subject to legal action, so they were kept hidden and only sold to trusted students or customers.

 

I still have my 5 originals, the first of which I got for $10 in a loose leaf notebook in 1959.  Pictured below is that one, along with the first spiral bound one I got a few years later.  Some fake books were mimeographed, some were original scores, and many had transcription errors.  And the cheap ones were basically useless. So we had to listen ahead and quickly identify specious-looking changes when sight reading new tunes on a job.  Because each covered a limited spectrum of music, we had to carry a few (jazz, pop, show tunes etc), which meant another bag or briefcase to schlep.

 

[JoeWhip]

All of his stuff was handwritten. He would listen to a record and write it down on blank music sheets you could buy in any record or music store, three hole punch it and put it into a binder. I still have some although he is long gone. 

[astrotoy]

There is a story about a famous classical pianist Wilhelm Backhaus who had phenomenal powers to transpose on the fly.  He was scheduled to play the Grieg A minor piano concerto with an orchestra.  He came in for the rehearsal the afternoon and found the piano was a semitone flat.  So he played the concerto in the rehearsal in Bb minor!  By the time of the concert that evening, the piano had been brought up to pitch (or maybe a substitute piano) and he played the concert in the correct key. 

(For non-musicians, A minor is the relative minor to C major - no sharps or flats, the easiest minor key to play, while Bb minor is the relative minor to Db major (five flats) one of the most difficult minor keys to play.)

 

For audiophiles, Backhaus did the very first recording of a concerto in 1909, the same Grieg Concerto in a very abbreviated form.  My friend, retired Decca engineer Mike Mailes, engineered one of Backhaus's last recordings, the Brahms second piano concerto, in April of 1967, done in Vienna when Backhaus was 83, two years before his death.  Mike told me this recording was one of the highlights of his career. 

 

Larry

[bluesman]

3 hours ago, astrotoy said:

For non-musicians, A minor is the relative minor to C major - no sharps or flats, the easiest minor key to play, while Bb minor is the relative minor to Db major (five flats) one of the most difficult minor keys to play.

Many musicians (including me) would dispute this statement, so I'd hate to see it quoted as gospel.  C may be the easiest key for many to read from a score, but it's no easier or harder to play in than any other key once you learn the intervals between and among the notes in the scales used for a given song.  And there are some very complicated, difficult tunes written in C.  Further, depending on the instrument(s) you play, songs played in concert C (i.e. C on the piano) may be in Bb, Eb, F, D, or some other key for you and you may rarely if ever play in C for your instrument (discussed further below).

 

When I transpose (and even when playing a song I know well in a key with multiple sharps or flats), I often visualize the score as a series of intervals (2nd, minor third, major third etc) - this makes it easy to play in any key, because the interval relationships are both intuitive and "audible" in your head once you get some mileage on your clock.

 

On the piano, C is not at all a natural key for the human hand, when you consider the fingerings necessary to run the keyboard.  Here's a simple explanation from Albert Frantz, a wonderful and well respected musician and teacher:

 

"There is an order of the keys in terms of difficulty, and it is counterintuitive. The most difficult key is C major!  [emphasis added by me] In general, the keys that are easiest to learn are simultaneously the least natural for the hand.  As a rule of thumb, the more black keys in a given key signature, the more comfortable it will be. D-flat major and F-sharp major are perfectly natural for the hand, whereas the “natural” key of C major is actually the most difficult. The very first principle of piano fingering – Chopin’s hand position – explains why.  I therefore recommend learning the keys from the bottom of the Circle of Fifths and working your way towards C major. First learn each piano scale and as you practice the scale learn the chord progressions for that key. Once you have done so, playing in all keys will be natural for you."

 

This is his reference to Chopin's hand position:  "We find the position of the hand by placing our fingers on the notes E, F#, G#, A#, [and] B...The long fingers will be found to be on the black keys with the short fingers on the white".  Chopin felt that this was the most natural position for the hand to relate to the keyboard.  

 

On the guitar, it's a simple matter of shifting your hand position from one fret to another.  A G chord barred at the third fret becomes a Bb if you move your hand 3 frets up the neck and a Db if you move up 6.  Again, all you have to know is the interval spacing among the notes and chords to play the same song in any of the 12 keys.  And once you learn chord inversions (i.e. playing the same chord from a different bottom note, e.g. a Bb major is a Bb major whether played as Bb-D-F, D-F-Bb, or F-Bb-D), you can change keys without moving your left hand much at all.

 

Remember that most horns and reeds are not pitched to concert key signatures, and some musicians rarely if ever play in concert C.  A standard trumpet is a Bb instrument, which means that a C on a trumpet is a Bb on the piano.  A clarinet and a tenor sax are also Bb instruments, but an alto sax is an Eb instrument (i.e. C on an alto is Eb on a piano) and a French horn is an F instrument.  If a composition is played in concert C, different members of the horn section are playing in Bb (trumpet, tenor & soprano saxes), Eb (alto & baritone saxes), C (trombone), F (French horn), etc.  The variations are endless - C, D and Eb trumpets are used mostly in classical and orchestral music.  FWIW, there is not and has never been a saxophone of any kind in a "proper" symphony orchestra.

 

Stan Getz was playing in G when the band was in F and in Eb when the band was in Db.  And if you played it in C, he'd be playing in D.  So C / Am is really not the easiest key in which to play - truth be told, there's no such thing as the easiest or hardest key except for simple tunes played by beginners or those who make no progress beyond introductory lessons.

 

On 8/15/2020 at 2:34 AM, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

The girl from Ipanema apparently turns 50

 

Her 50th birthday was in 2012 - the song was written in 1962.  The album by Getz and Gilberto won a Grammy in 1965.

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, bluesman said:

Her 50th birthday was in 2012 - the song was written in 1962.  The album by Getz and Gilberto won a Grammy in 1965.

 

Even scarier, if "the girl" (Tall and tan and young and lovely) was say 22 in 1962, she is now turning 80 !

[astrotoy]

I am fortunate to have a very nice 15ips 2 track tape copy of the Getz/Gilberto album.  Spectacular sound.  It has the full version of the song with Joao Gilberto playing the guitar and singing the original Portuguese lyrics and then his wife Astrud follows singing the English lyrics.  Not sure whether it is common knowledge, but after the album was released,  Astrud Gilberto moved to the US, left her husband for Stan Getz and toured with Getz.  

 

According to wiki the "Girl" was about 17 when she inspired the song in 1962.  There is a nice photo of her in the wiki article taken in 2006 when she was 61.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_from_Ipanema

 

Larry

 

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, astrotoy said:

I am fortunate to have a very nice 15ips 2 track tape copy of the Getz/Gilberto album.  Spectacular sound.  It has the full version of the song with Joao Gilberto playing the guitar and singing the original Portuguese lyrics and then his wife Astrud follows singing the English lyrics. 

 

Wow, that's interesting ! I have the HDTracks version and the sound is not great, but still listenable.It suffers some compression (DR 12? so not massively bad by measure) and maybe got rematered/Eq ? There is a upper bass muddiness and something wrong with the timbre of Astrud's voice (beyond sibilance) and Getz sax also is not right. The sax jumps out at you at times. I am being picky but wonder if you have heard this version compared to the tape copy?

Cheers

David

Edit - This probably explains a bit, from the CD

 

"Numerous friends have recommended that I obtain this recording for my collection.Eventually, I yielded to their entreaties, and to temptation, and bought the album.

 

To be honest, I was not impressed at my first auditioning. The sound quality was clearly not five-star, though the music was very nice. My taste suggested that the two vocalists lacked in professionalism: the acoustic harmonics of the female voice, recorded in a separate chamber, were so dissimilar from the other elements of the recording that I was left with the impression her part was like a lump of ice-cream offered as a side-order to a hot entrée. On the other hand, Stan Getz was in great shape, tip-top prime-time shape,and that was the best thing in the album.

 

On later occasions, I listened again and again to this album, at the request of visiting friends. I began to enjoy it for its very natural singing, and the group's successful creation of an intimate, cozy atmosphere. I began to listen to the music, and forget the sound discrepancies.

 

Last year, I met with a senior executive of Universal Music to acquire a few titles from the Verve recording vault, and he recommended this album, along with We Get Requests. I gladly accepted his offer.

 

In the months since then, this album has been twice re-mastered at Flair Studios, JVC, Tokyo! I worked quite hard with Takeshi Hakkaman, the brilliant young engineer who is the master of the superb K2 HD sound. We tried to minimize the nasal quality and chattiness of the male voice, and the wiry elements of the female. At the conclusion of our first attempt, we thought we had succeeded. However, when I afterwards listened to the CDR at home, I felt we needed still further improvement. I asked Takeshi to return to the task.

 

The version on this album is thus, finally, re-mastered to the best sound we could achieve.

 

Please listen to what we have done. I love it; I hope you will, too.

 

Winston Ma

Spring, 2009"

[JoeWhip]

I have the gold MoFi CD mastered with the Gain System developed by Mike Moffat. Sounds great to me.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

40 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have the gold MoFi CD mastered with the Gain System developed by Mike Moffat. Sounds great to me.

 

can you link to where you bought this? Thanks.

[JoeWhip]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

can you link to where you bought this? Thanks.

I bought it new in 1994 when it came out. 

[botrytis]

I have several versions of this and it does seem to one of the songs that is simple yet hard.

 

I defer to the experts on this one.

[sphinxsix]

On 8/15/2020 at 8:34 AM, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

The girl from Ipanema – so what key do you play it in?

 

In my case it's usually more or less this one. The problem is I can't exactly name it, maybe someone will help.. 

 

 

[bluesman]

21 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

In my case it's usually more or less this one. The problem is I can't exactly name it, maybe someone will help.. 

 

 

 

That’s in Q minor  😉
 

I assume you know & understand what this is. But for those who don’t, it’s music written in an alternative musical scale and harmony system to the 12 step octave system on which most western music is based.  This particular one, named the Bohlen-Pierce scale for two of the scientists who independently developed it, is based on a fundamental harmonic ratio of 3:1 (called a tritave), rather than the 2:1 ratio of the octave. The scale divides the tritave into 13 steps, whereas an octave in the system with which we’re familiar is divided into 12.
 

Instruments have to be built to play specific scales, so these are B-P clarinets.  They have different keys and fingerings, to produce notes that are not in octave based music.  There’s a lot of tonal experimentation in jazz, eg Don Cherry’s quarter tone trumpet (which has 4 valves instead of the usual 3) and the many instruments of Ornette Coleman.  But much of this is still in the octave framework.
 

FWIW, there are many scales and systems out there - the B-P is a recent one conceived about 50 years ago and formalized in the ‘80s as I recall.  Music in non traditional scales is most often dissonant or an acquired taste for those used to one system, eg a lot of Eastern music explores many scales that I just can’t learn to enjoy.  But everything’s worth one listen.  And I learned to like cilantro, so I can probably come to appreciate B-P music if I live long enough.

 

Thanks for posting this - I’d forgotten what it sounds like.

[Allan F]

On 8/16/2020 at 1:52 PM, bluesman said:

Her 50th birthday was in 2012 - the song was written in 1962.  The album by Getz and Gilberto won a Grammy in 1965.

 

The vast majority of the releases of this album, both on vinyl and CD, have the channels reversed, with Astrud Gilberto's voice on the right. In the original recording, her voice was on the left.

[JoeWhip]

True, but maybe the original is the one that was wrong and they decided to correct it. I will have to check more into this. In any event the old Mofi gold CD has that great Verve tape sound of the era in spades.

[astrotoy]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:54 AM, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Wow, that's interesting ! I have the HDTracks version and the sound is not great, but still listenable.It suffers some compression (DR 12? so not massively bad by measure) and maybe got rematered/Eq ? There is a upper bass muddiness and something wrong with the timbre of Astrud's voice (beyond sibilance) and Getz sax also is not right. The sax jumps out at you at times. I am being picky but wonder if you have heard this version compared to the tape copy?

Cheers

David

Edit - This probably explains a bit, from the CD

 

"Numerous friends have recommended that I obtain this recording for my collection.Eventually, I yielded to their entreaties, and to temptation, and bought the album.

 

To be honest, I was not impressed at my first auditioning. The sound quality was clearly not five-star, though the music was very nice. My taste suggested that the two vocalists lacked in professionalism: the acoustic harmonics of the female voice, recorded in a separate chamber, were so dissimilar from the other elements of the recording that I was left with the impression her part was like a lump of ice-cream offered as a side-order to a hot entrée. On the other hand, Stan Getz was in great shape, tip-top prime-time shape,and that was the best thing in the album.

 

On later occasions, I listened again and again to this album, at the request of visiting friends. I began to enjoy it for its very natural singing, and the group's successful creation of an intimate, cozy atmosphere. I began to listen to the music, and forget the sound discrepancies.

 

Last year, I met with a senior executive of Universal Music to acquire a few titles from the Verve recording vault, and he recommended this album, along with We Get Requests. I gladly accepted his offer.

 

In the months since then, this album has been twice re-mastered at Flair Studios, JVC, Tokyo! I worked quite hard with Takeshi Hakkaman, the brilliant young engineer who is the master of the superb K2 HD sound. We tried to minimize the nasal quality and chattiness of the male voice, and the wiry elements of the female. At the conclusion of our first attempt, we thought we had succeeded. However, when I afterwards listened to the CDR at home, I felt we needed still further improvement. I asked Takeshi to return to the task.

 

The version on this album is thus, finally, re-mastered to the best sound we could achieve.

 

Please listen to what we have done. I love it; I hope you will, too.

 

Winston Ma

Spring, 2009"

 

Besides a tape (which had the channels reversed from the CD) I do have the FIM version which Winston Ma did.  Winston hired the best mastering engineers and with his keen ears and mind would spend lots of time (and money) to get the best out of each master tape.  (BTW, the FIM version has Astrud's voice on the right).  I had the pleasure of working with Winston when he commissioned me to write a book about Decca Records (classical) for FIM in 2013.  Four CD's of some of the greatest Decca recordings were included with the book and we had two great multi Grammy award winning engineers (Michael Bishop and Robert Friedrich) doing the mastering under the watchful eyes (and ears) of Winston.

 

Larry

 

[botrytis]

2 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

The vast majority of the releases of this album, both on vinyl and CD, have the channels reversed, with Astrud Gilberto's voice on the right. In the original recording, her voice was on the left.

 

That is interesting. I will have to listen. I have a numbered 180 gram re-release of this LP as well as other versions. It will be interesting to go through and listen.

[bluesman]

9 hours ago, Allan F said:

The vast majority of the releases of this album, both on vinyl and CD, have the channels reversed, with Astrud Gilberto's voice on the right. In the original recording, her voice was on the left.

I just listened to all 4 of Astrud Gilberto's versions of Ipanema in my collection and loved every note.  Her voice is on the right on "Astrud Gilberto's Finest Hour" (played in Db) and on the original Verve Getz/Gilberto album (Db), She's centered on Getz/Gilberto 2 Live at Carnegie Hall (D major, not Db!), and she's halfway between full left and center on a limited release 7" Canadian 45 RPM from 1963 (Db).  I think I have at least one more version on vinyl and will look for it later.