Rendu Support Thread

[enser]

Long time lurker... Just got my microRendu and am setting up one of my PCs for a Roon & HQPlayer server.

Saw this post and though I could add my $0.02:

 

Working as an engineer (in software defined networks) at F5 and Juniper Networks I can tell you a few pointers that will show you some significant improvement in communication over ethernet to devices located on your home network.

 

Get a dedicated NIC (network interface card). I highly recommend getting an Intel NIC (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1194745-REG/intel_expi9301ct_gigabit_ct_desktop_adapter.html). This allows offloading of network protocol processing to hardware specifically made to handle ethernet based communication. This also allows you to access fine tuning of how your NIC processes and handles this traffic (Tuning Throughput Performance for Intel® Ethernet Adapters).

 

Get an out of band switch that is connected to your computer and your microRendu ONLY. Something like a Netgear 4 port gigabit switch. If you have the funds, I would recommend a managed switch as you can segment traffic to VLANs, and take advantage of additional tuning options.

Regardless, if you use a dedicated NIC connected to this switch (which is only connected to the microRendu) you will avoid any chatter that may be occurring between unrelated network devices (this includes a wifi router or access point). You eliminate issues with traffic destined to Netflix affecting your streamer to server connection.. You limit traffic to one broadcast domain and are only broadcasting directly between streamer and server. Finally, you are avoiding any unnecessary processing of traffic that a router would perform. In theory, this shouldn't happen in the first place, but cheaper consumer devices like a wifi router cannot guarantee proper segmentation that you would get with an out of band switch as described above.

 

If you use a dedicated NIC for streaming, you can still access your microRendu via your music server. In this configuration, it is acting as a bridge between your normal home network and the dedicated music network on the server itself. Logging in and making changes to the microRendu would be done via your music server. This can be viewed as an inconvenience, but so far I've found the microRendu to be set it and forget it without excessive management of this device necessary.

 

If you need to do major long runs across the house, I would recommend going with ethernet to fiber converters on each end. This can be viewed as overkill, but better safe than sorry for those long runs as fiber optics are made for high throughput long distance runs. I think I saw someone with some improved success doing this in another post...

 

Finally, to take advantage of this setup you will need to create two networks on your server, one for general traffic and one for the music network. I.e normal network is 192.168.1.x and music network is 10.0.0.x . I am unclear if you can configure network settings on the microRendu itself. If not you can grab a lightweight DHCP server to assign an IP to the microRendu (a quick google for DHCP server windows will yeild a few results). The end result is traffic being cleanly segmented and improvement will be seen in streaming.

[Emcee]

Very interesting. Are the benefits audible?

Currently I have my MB's ethernet port connected to a router, connected to my streaming device.

So if I understand correctly - I keep my existing setup for regular internet usage but install an Intel NIC, connect it to a Netgear switch which I connect to my streamer.

I needed to Google ''difference between router and switch'' as, up until now I wasn't sure what the difference was. That gives you an idea of my level of comprehension of networking.

Why do I need the switch, can't I simply connect the NIC to my streamer?

[enser]

I haven't done A/B testing with this particular setup with the microRendu, but I have done this for streaming music and other media via Plex and NAS setups. This was something I setup a while back before I grabbed a microRendu, and these were general findings with streaming media from a server to a client (like a raspberry pi on your TV for Plex or music in this case).

 

To answer your question- connecting directly to the microRendu would be the way to go if your server is physically close to it. Usually distance can get in the way with a direct run and having shorter cables with a centralized repeating device like a switch can help with signal loss (though arguable how much a real impact it has in an audio context). A switch can also help with ensuring integrity and timing, but I don't know if it matters on this small of a scale. This:

Cut-Through and Store-and-Forward Ethernet Switching for Low-Latency Environments - Cisco

is a good article on how switches can help network traffic integrity (this is more to aid discussion).

 

Really, I believe the largest improvement came from getting a dedicated NIC that has better packet processing hardware on it than a bare bones mobo NIC that is using your CPU for packet processing. A cycle freed from your CPU is always a plus, and Intel NICs especially are good at moving packet processing off of CPU load. When using processor intensive functions like HQPlayer upsampling or Plex transcoding any extra CPU cycles you can squeeze out help (as you probably know). If you can or only want to run one network connection, this will still be a step up from your onboard NIC. In extreme cases you can run into CPU masking, i.e. artificial CPU load caused by a sub-par interface (in this case a network interface).

 

The one thing I have not had time to confirm is if you can configure the microRendu's network manually (I'm sure this has been answered in this forum by Sonore). If this is not possible than getting a managed switch that can run DHCP would be another reason to run a switch between the server and microRendu.

 

I think the big take aways I found were 1) dedicated NIC (intel) for segmentation and packet processing offload 2) and a semblance of control over I/O paths by virtue of a seperate network run.

 

As always, YMMV and I'm sure some of the guys at Sonore can chime in to let me know if I'm on point or not.

[JohnSwenson]

 

Get an out of band switch that is connected to your computer and your microRendu ONLY. Something like a Netgear 4 port gigabit switch. If you have the funds, I would recommend a managed switch as you can segment traffic to VLANs, and take advantage of additional tuning options.

 

 

Hi enser,

I agree with a lot of your post except for the managed switch. We have found that the handling of multicast traffic by many managed switches as they come out of the box does not work well with the microRendu in NAA mode. They can usually be tweaked to handle it correctly but very few people are up to the task.

 

I usually recommend that people have a separate UNMANAGED switch to deal with the traffic between the computer running HQP and the microRendu. It can still have a connection back to the internet, but it works best if the packets between HQP and the microRendu go through an unmanaged switch, in particular NOT through a router or a managed switch.

 

John S.

[enser]

Ah yes….multicast traffic is handled at the transport layer... which can be an issue depending on your gear in how gear sorts point-to-point connections. can see the logic in your recommendation.

[jaapdeventer]

Question, I've my TV, Airport Express, microRendu and NAS all connected to my WiFi router. Would it be better sound wise to put the microRendu and NAS (music only) on a switch and connect the switch to the router? That way the music stream from NAS to microRendu could perhaps bypass the noisy WiFi router.

[enser]

Yeah, thats the way I have gone and have seen improvement. If you can segment that traffic so it doesn't traverse the wifi router with a switch I'd go for it. Connecting the switch to your wifi router is fine as local network will not interact with the router unless it needs to go out to a device directly connected to said router or out to the internet.

[Ultrarunner]

Question, I've my TV, Airport Express, microRendu and NAS all connected to my WiFi router. Would it be better sound wise to put the microRendu and NAS (music only) on a switch and connect the switch to the router? That way the music stream from NAS to microRendu could perhaps bypass the noisy WiFi router.

 

I have a similar question. My main home router is an AirPort Extreme (with linear power supply). Plugged into it are my iMac, server and microRendu. So if I plug a switch into the Extreme, and then plug the server and microRendu into the switch instead of the router I'll get better sound because of the isolation from the router's wifi?

 

If the benefit is significant, I would do this (assuming I could power this switch with a linear power supply-I have a JS-2 I could use). Any recommendations for switches?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[ericuco]

Any recommendations for switches?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

This is an unmanaged switch that you just plug in and go. Been using these for home & work for a few years now without any issues.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1220709-REG/cisco_sg110d_05_na_sg110d_05_5_port_ethernet_switch.html

[Emcee]

Gigabit vs fast?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that gigabit introduced more noise than fast. Is this true? Since this will probably be used for streaming audio data only should I still opt for gigabit?

[Ultrarunner]

Gigabit vs fast?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that gigabit introduced more noise than fast. Is this true? Since this will probably be used for streaming audio data only should I still opt for gigabit?

 

I recall reading the same thing. I just placed an order for the slower of the two Cisco switched to be safe. I assume it's fine for high res audio or 4K video, if necessary down the road. It's not too big a deal if I made a mistake, given the cost.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[JohnSwenson]

I did a fair amount of testing of the microRendu between 1gig and 100Mb and could find no correlation with speed and SQ. The correlation I DID find was with power supply. Some network equipment comes with really awful SMPS supplies. Newer equipment usually comes with SMPS that are usually not too bad and these sound better. The best was a linear supply. Currently I'm running my microRendu connected to an old 100Mb switch with a linear supply, this was the best arrangement I could come up with.

 

As far as running your audio packets through a router, it has nothing to do with WiFi per se, some routers just do not have the best switches in the world which can cause problems with some audio configurations. It may be perfectly fine it may not.

 

So I recommend that if you can, get a separate unmanaged switch and put your microRendu and server on that switch. The unmanaged switches are not very expensive so for most people it is not a big deal. And if you can, power that switch from a linear supply.

 

John S.

[rae8836]

Just put my microRendu Black Friday bundle into service. I think I have the basics working but I need a better understanding of the relationship between my music server and BubbleUPnP.

 

BTW, kudos to Andrew and the crew. My Black Friday bundle order acknowledgement was timestamped 07:54 Friday and USPS delivered the package to a suburb of Chicago on Monday afternoon!

 

My chain is Minimserver/Synology DS1515+>wired Ethernet>microRendu>Oppo HA-1>Oppo PM-1.

I previously had HA-1/PM-1 working with Sony Xperia ZL>Sony PHA-2 accessing Minimserver using the uPnP/DLNA function in USB Audio Player Pro on the cellphone. I followed the (brief) instructions for LPS-1/microRendu setup and everything seemed good. I then went to MySonicorbiter and saw 'rendu-0102ed' but the Music Servers box said "No music servers found on your network." Note that I definitely had MinimServer up and running on my NAS. Realizing I needed a control element, I installed BubbleUPnP Android app (not server) on my cell phone. When I started this up, it found 'rendu-0102ed' along with MinimServer. After playing around a bit with the BubbleUPnP user interface I had MinimServer content playing through the microRendu - actually much easier than I expected. However, MySonicorbiter still says "No music servers found on your network." Why is this?

 

My further questions revolve around the why's and wherefore's for other instances of BubbleUPnP. I presently am getting full access to my albums and tracks using MinimServer on my NAS, MPD/DLNA Renderer on the microRendu, and BubbleUPnP app as controller on my cell phone.

 

When/for what would I install the available BubbleUPnP server on the microRendu?

 

When/for what would I install BubbleUPnP server on my NAS?

 

I have looked about for this info but didn't find anything useful. If these answers exist somewhere, please point me to them.

[sockpit]

I use lumin and kazoo apps on my iPad as controllers. My ripped music sits on my computer as does minimserver. With this I am able to play my own library on the network when uRendu is set to mpd/DNLA. For me, bubbleupnp had to be installed, and I put it on the uRendu, only in order to stream via tidal or Qobuz on the two mentioned apps. By creating an open home renderer version of the uRendu in bubbleupnp, the controllers are able to see it and stream to it. How all this stuff actually works I haven't a clue Android requirements may be different.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[jaapdeventer]

I have looked about for this info but didn't find anything useful. If these answers exist somewhere, please point me to them.

I'm using Bubbleupnp with Minimstreamer for about 4 years now. Never understood the use of Bubbleupnp server on the NAS. You can use it to create an open home server. I did that but it clutters your interface with extra servers and renderers. With me it didn't do anything extra. Not that I needed anything. I'm very happy with Bubbleupnp as it is. My guess is that some renderers need open home to function. I removed Bubbleupnp server from the NAS. I still got Bubbleupnp on the microRendu because it was installed as I got it. Should try removing it but I hesitate because like you I don't know what it does. Will Tidal still work if I remove Bubbleupnp from microRendu?

[vortecjr]

I'm using Bubbleupnp with Minimstreamer for about 4 years now. Never understood the use of Bubbleupnp server on the NAS. You can use it to create an open home server. I did that but it clutters your interface with extra servers and renderers. With me it didn't do anything extra. Not that I needed anything. I'm very happy with Bubbleupnp as it is. My guess is that some renderers need open home to function. I removed Bubbleupnp server from the NAS. I still got Bubbleupnp on the microRendu because it was installed as I got it. Should try removing it but I hesitate because like you I don't know what it does. Will Tidal still work if I remove Bubbleupnp from microRendu?

The main reason for BubbleUPnP Server is to use microRendu with Linn Kazoo on Apple Devices. It also enables Tidal and Qobuz on Kazoo.

[vortecjr]

I then went to MySonicorbiter and saw 'rendu-0102ed' but the Music Servers box said "No music servers found on your network." Note that I definitely had MinimServer up and running on my NAS.

 

That section is reserved for servers that we make that are based on the Sonicorbiter operating system. For example a sonicTransporter i5 or a sonicTransporter AP will show up under that section in MySonicorbiter.

[rae8836]

Thanks for the clarification that the intended use for BubbleUPnP Server on the microRendu is to support Linn Kazoo. I'm a believer in running the minimum number of tasks to obtain the desired result - thus my concern about BubbleUPnP bubbling up everywhere. I do realize that just because it shows up on a list of apps doesn't mean it is actually consuming any resources....

 

Also thanks for the clarification about "No music servers found...". Perhaps this could be reworded to match your response: "No music servers using the Sonicorbiter operating system found...". As a not-knowledgeable newbie I was concerned that when my known-good music server wasn't found that I needed to do some sort of reconfiguration of my music server (perhaps start BubbleUPnP on my NAS? <grin>).

 

Again, my LPS-1/microRendu configuration is working great. I'm just trying to gain a fuller understanding of what is happening now and what should be/could be made to happen. Actually I'm probably going to turn off Minimserver/BubbleUPnP and try my trial Roon subscription as I'd like to have a smooth integration of my existing library and Tidal. I'm aware that Tidal can be integrated into the Minimserver/BubbleUPnP environment, but Roon looks slicker and I do have the trial so....

[vortecjr]

Thanks for the clarification that the intended use for BubbleUPnP Server on the microRendu is to support Linn Kazoo. I'm a believer in running the minimum number of tasks to obtain the desired result - thus my concern about BubbleUPnP bubbling up everywhere. I do realize that just because it shows up on a list of apps doesn't mean it is actually consuming any resources....

 

Also thanks for the clarification about "No music servers found...". Perhaps this could be reworded to match your response: "No music servers using the Sonicorbiter operating system found...". As a not-knowledgeable newbie I was concerned that when my known-good music server wasn't found that I needed to do some sort of reconfiguration of my music server (perhaps start BubbleUPnP on my NAS? <grin>).

 

Again, my LPS-1/microRendu configuration is working great. I'm just trying to gain a fuller understanding of what is happening now and what should be/could be made to happen. Actually I'm probably going to turn off Minimserver/BubbleUPnP and try my trial Roon subscription as I'd like to have a smooth integration of my existing library and Tidal. I'm aware that Tidal can be integrated into the Minimserver/BubbleUPnP environment, but Roon looks slicker and I do have the trial so....

 

I think you will like the Tidal integration in Roon. Use the 60 day trial coupon that comes with the unit.

[Emcee]

I recall reading the same thing. I just placed an order for the slower of the two Cisco switched to be safe. I assume it's fine for high res audio or 4K video, if necessary down the road. It's not too big a deal if I made a mistake, given the cost.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

I just hooked up a Cisco SE1500 and the Intel NIC and am quite pleased with the result. For starters navigating in my Squeezebox is much faster than before. Now I've been in this game long enough to not jump to conclusions prematurely but at low volume the first track I played sounded fuller than usual. It's too late crank up the sound so I'll hold off with any further comments but I'm quite certain that there is an improvement. I also had to use some cheapo CAT 5 cable to go from NIC to switch so there might be more room for improvement although I'm not totally convinced (yet) that ethernet cables make that much of a difference.

[Ultrarunner]

I just hooked up a Cisco SE1500 and the Intel NIC and am quite pleased with the result. For starters navigating in my Squeezebox is much faster than before. Now I've been in this game long enough to not jump to conclusions prematurely but at low volume the first track I played sounded fuller than usual. It's too late crank up the sound so I'll hold off with any further comments but I'm quite certain that there is an improvement. I also had to use some cheapo CAT 5 cable to go from NIC to switch so there might be more room for improvement although I'm not totally convinced (yet) that ethernet cables make that much of a difference.

 

I look forward to experimenting with mine when it comes. I assume the one I ordered (Cisco SF-110D) will be similar to yours. And, unfortunately, you might be surprised on Ethernet cables. I just replaced a run of generic with Audioquest Cinnamon and was surprised myself.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[rae8836]

I think you will like the Tidal integration in Roon. Use the 60 day trial coupon that comes with the unit.

 

You're Right! Turned off MinimServer/MPD-DLNA and set up Roon on my Synology DS1515+ and activated the RoonReady app on the microRendu. The close coupling between Roon and Tidal Hi-Res results in a music library environment that is definitely much more than the sum of the parts. Yes, it comes down to $30/mo annualized but for me the value-add is much more than that. Really appreciate the smooth integration of Roon into the microRendu, including the Native DAC support (which I am using for my Oppo HA-1). Very pleased customer all around....

[cjf]

FYI...I ran the update to 2.3 today from 2.1 and noticed that the DSD handling settings reverted back to the defaults of none which means DSD will be downsampled to PCM.

 

My normal setting here is "DOP" so I needed to change it back to that after the upgrade.

 

Also, not sure if something is wrong with the ROON Ready component of the upgrade process or not but I saw mention of it attempting to use .18 then crapped out and after all was said and done the ROON Ready version was .10

 

I didn't take notice to the previous version but if I were a betting man I think I saw it was .10 before the upgrade anyway. I took screenshots of the upgrade page but don't have them handy on my tablet. I can post them if anyone cares to see it.

[vortecjr]

FYI...I ran the update to 2.3 today from 2.1 and noticed that the DSD handling settings reverted back to the defaults of none which means DSD will be downsampled to PCM.

 

My normal setting here is "DOP" so I needed to change it back to that after the upgrade.

 

Also, not sure if something is wrong with the ROON Ready component of the upgrade process or not but I saw mention of it attempting to use .18 then crapped out and after all was said and done the ROON Ready version was .10

 

I didn't take notice to the previous version but if I were a betting man I think I saw it was .10 before the upgrade anyway. I took screenshots of the upgrade page but don't have them handy on my tablet. I can post them if anyone cares to see it.

What you probably saw was 1.1.8 being updated to 1.1.10.

[Ultrarunner]

Adding the Cisco switch between my router and microRendu did improve the sound quality, to my surprise. I was just hoping it wouldn't degrade the sound quality since I wanted an extra port. The switch being fed by a JS-2. Overkill, but it was nearby and one of its outputs was unused.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile