Network Isolation

[jtwrace]

back to network isolation....

[AlainGr]

I agree that isolation needs to be taken in account, with all the thunderstorms that we see more than ever. When I leave home for work and then realize I forgot to disconnect my sound system from the mains (and there are thunderstorms forecasts), I feel real bad...

[4est]

Gosh, the thought of unplugging my DAC or my present amp hurts me-both take about a day to warm up...

I agree that isolation needs to be taken in account, with all the thunderstorms that we see more than ever. When I leave home for work and then realize I forgot to disconnect my sound system from the mains (and there are thunderstorms forecasts), I feel real bad...

[jtwrace]

Gosh, the thought of unplugging my DAC or my present amp hurts me-both take about a day to warm up...

 

I do not unplug jack.

[AlainGr]

Hi 4est,

 

I think the same, but I have witnessed what Nature can do and it finally made more sense to me to protect what I have than to take the risk of losing it... But I know what you mean...

[lmitche]

Hi Imitche,

 

Same here with the getting rid of nasty switching supplies. Of course there are some clean ones like Pardo.

 

I have found that anything connected to the audio and power circuit provides a path of noise. The ethernet transformers are not made equal, and I am now looking at creating two networks, so that I can separate the cable modem, tv data, work computers data streams from the network connected to the Audio Mac for remote app functionality. Right now they share the network and I think it is raising the fatigue factor.

 

Should be relatively easy with a wireless bridge/router to the internet as opposed to hardwired for e.g. internet radio, and remote app, a switch for a layer of isolation, a medical isolator for more isolation, bluejeanscable CAT6, Acoustic Revive filter and some bench LPSUs. Overkill? Not sure what else to throw at it, except physically unplug the ethernet cable (which does help), but that defeats the CA convenience.

 

I agree, the Teddy Pardo supplies are intriguing, but expensive. While I am anxious to try one, for now, I am using three 2.5 amp 12 volt Pyramid linear power supplies costing $30 each from Amazon. They are enhanced with 10000uf 16volt Panasonic HS capacitors, $5 each, connected across the output terminals. Sound quality is much improved with these LPSes powering the NAS and two HP 1GB procurve switches. The signal carrying switch and NAS linear power supplies are plugged into a Tripp lite isolation transformer, ~$100, which helps as well.

 

This morning I took delivery of a Baaske network isolation transformer. I spent the morning running around the house testing the Baaske in different points in the network. While this was not a blind test, I was alone, the best perceived sound quality was obtained by placing the transformer between the cable modem and router. This makes sense as it removes the EMI/RFI collected by the 300+ coax cable running from the nearby telephone pole. It also good to know that the entire wired network is protected.

 

I tried using the transformer to segment the network into two pieces, a data cable plant and an audio cable plant using the transformer to isolate from the data cable plant in rest of the house. Sound quality suffered when doing so. Lastly, placing the transformer behind my NAD M50 music player reduced the level of presence and ambience obtained without the transformer.

 

FYI, I use Bluejeans cable CAT 6a for all signal carrying cables between the NAD and NAS. It is a terrific choice. I have tried so called CAT 7 shielded twisted pair cables, but the results are disappointing. My expectation is that the shield is just another carrier of EMI/RFI. Perhaps if one end of the shield was disconnected, ala Naim interconnects, that would work. I don't know.

 

Thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread. My system has never sounded better, and I could not have done this without your contribution.

[Listener7]

EMO USA stocks them too. That's where I got mine.

 

They now have them on Amazon too.

[jtwrace]

They now have them on Amazon too.

 

Slightly more expensive too. Mine was $182.20 shipped to my door.

[tranz]

One more way to provide electrical separation between all the other routers, modems, computers, dvrs, etc. on the network:

 

1. NETGEAR Universal N300 Wi-Fi to Ethernet Adapter (WNCE2001) for $47

 

This is a handy small wireless receiver with one LAN out connection. This I have connected through a bluejeanscable 6a cable and the Acoustic Revive filter to the Mac Mini.

 

2. HY1503C Variable Linear DC Power Supply. Analog. $70

 

To remove the switching supply wall wart of the Netgear, I use a bench LPSU to provide 1A, 5V

 

3. A connector plug for DC power. 1.3mm x 3.4mm DC connector. 171-3224-EX from Mouser.com

[lmitche]

One more way to provide electrical separation between all the other routers, modems, computers, dvrs, etc. on the network:

 

1. NETGEAR Universal N300 Wi-Fi to Ethernet Adapter (WNCE2001) for $47

 

This is a handy small wireless receiver with one LAN out connection. This I have connected through a bluejeanscable 6a cable and the Acoustic Revive filter to the Mac Mini.

 

2. HY1503C Variable Linear DC Power Supply. Analog. $70

 

To remove the switching supply wall wart of the Netgear, I use a bench LPSU to provide 1A, 5V

 

3. A connector plug for DC power. 1.3mm x 3.4mm DC connector. 171-3224-EX from Mouser.com

 

Tranz - Thanks for this. After reading your post, you got me thinking, and I finally got around to trying the built-in WIFI connection in the NAD M50 streamer connected to my Auralic Vega DAC setup in Femto clock mode. This meant disconnecting the (noisy) direct copper cable drop to the NAD M50/Vega combo.

 

However, once done, when playing the NAD m50, the DAC stuttered on high res recordings. So, I moved my Wireless Access Point(WAP) closer, directly into the equipment cabinet, 1 foot away from the NAD M50. That solved the stuttering problem. Also, my WAP device, a Unifi AP Pro, is Powered Over Ethernet(POE). This let me put the (presumably noisy) switching power supply for the Unifi in the basement, at the end of a 150 foot Blue Jeans cable, keeping the Unifi power supply off the dedicated power circuit used for my two channel system.

 

The SQ was improved once again, and is the best I have heard in my system. Sound stage and ambience are the most notable improvements and I am getting better resolution and high frequency extension, with sounds such as brushes on cymbals. My Watt Puppies are pretty revealing, so every change is easy to hear. Many thanks for the suggestion.

 

BTW, I am keeping the Emosystems EN70HD and Baaske isolation transformers on the network. The Emosystem device is on the cable modem. The Baaske is on a Ceton ETH6 Windows media tuner. The Emosystems transformer seems more effective at filtering the cable modem EMI than the Baaske, and the cable modem is by far the noisiest of the two devices. One unintended benefit of the network isolation transformers is that the picture quality from the Ceton greatly improved with the network isolation. So much so, that I had to re-calibrate my 55 inch TV. The picture quality has never been better, sharper with improved color saturation.

 

It is so nice to SEE the impact of network isolation, as well as hearing it.

[tranz]

Hi Imitche,

 

Glad to read you are getting improvements.

 

I have been contemplating getting the EMO for the modem as well, to see whether my TV picture would improve. Thanks for sharing your findings.

 

Cheers

[bixby]

Very interesting thread. May I ask a question about effectiveness (audible benefit) of the ethernet isolator when used with a mac mini that is sending a signal to a dac via a USB cable with no power leg? Is there still an improvement in sound quality?

[lmitche]

Very interesting thread. May I ask a question about effectiveness (audible benefit) of the ethernet isolator when used with a mac mini that is sending a signal to a dac via a USB cable with no power leg? Is there still an improvement in sound quality?

 

I don't have a Mac Mini so can't supply empirical evidence for your case. However my expectation is that your SQ will improve with an isolation transformer if 1)the Mac Mini is connected to your network via a hard-wired ethernet connection and 2) you have a cable modem (or any other coaxially cable networked device) in your house.

 

If you Mac Mini is connected to your network via WIFI, it is tough to say whether you will hear any improvement in SQ.

[bixby]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I am using Cat 6 to connect the airport extreme to the mini. The cable modem is connected to the extreme as is a USB external hard drive which feeds the player in the mac. I have not used wifi on the mac since I determined it affected SQ negatively.

 

I did not know if an improvement would still be evident with no power going to the usb dac but thought any noise from the airport extreme or modem may get to the computer and manifest itself as noise that may still affect sound quality. May have to pick up the Emo unit and give it a try.

 

thanks

[cjf]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I am using Cat 6 to connect the airport extreme to the mini. The cable modem is connected to the extreme as is a USB external hard drive which feeds the player in the mac. I have not used wifi on the mac since I determined it affected SQ negatively.

 

I did not know if an improvement would still be evident with no power going to the usb dac but thought any noise from the airport extreme or modem may get to the computer and manifest itself as noise that may still affect sound quality. May have to pick up the Emo unit and give it a try.

 

thanks

 

FWIW, you will probably benefit from placing some distance away from that main cable modem feed wire as that signal has some pretty ugly voltages and noise associated with it.

 

Personally I would take the Ethernet cable Output from the cable modem and plug it into a separate switch and not the same switch that your main music server is using. As a similar FWIW, you may also benefit from not using the USB plug on the switch/router as a connection point for your External Hard drive holding your music.

 

These switches are made with Mickey Mouse parts and zero attempt at shielding and the wall wart used to power them probably barley has enough juice to keep its self running let alone a daisy chained External hard drive.

 

IMO, if you are going to use an Ethernet isolator for blocking noise from getting into your music system the best place for it is a few inches BEFORE the music server itself then have it be a home run directly into the music server Ethernet Input. If you are only concerned with surges then immediately after the Cable Modem Output is best.

[bixby]

FWIW, you will probably benefit from placing some distance away from that main cable modem feed wire as that signal has some pretty ugly voltages and noise associated with it.

 

Personally I would take the Ethernet cable Output from the cable modem and plug it into a separate switch and not the same switch that your main music server is using. As a similar FWIW, you may also benefit from not using the USB plug on the switch/router as a connection point for your External Hard drive holding your music.

 

These switches are made with Mickey Mouse parts and zero attempt at shielding and the wall wart used to power them probably barley has enough juice to keep its self running let alone a daisy chained External hard drive.

 

IMO, if you are going to use an Ethernet isolator for blocking noise from getting into your music system the best place for it is a few inches BEFORE the music server itself then have it be a home run directly into the music server Ethernet Input. If you are only concerned with surges then immediately after the Cable Modem Output is best.

 

Curious as to what item you refer to in first paragraph, the router placed away from the coax cable? I use an Airport Extreme and it is a few feet away. Also the USB drive is totally externally powered by its own supply (sadly a switching brick) so it is not relying on the Extreme for power. I have foil wrapped the drive power brick for what it is worth.

 

Has anyone done a test from an extreme or other router and then run it through another switch just to see if sound benefits? I would prefer not to add an additional connection if not necessary.

 

thanks for the input.

 

And yes I do think the best position for the ethernet isolator for a sound quality improvement may be right at the input to the Mac mini.

[lmitche]

Curious as to what item you refer to in first paragraph, the router placed away from the coax cable? I use an Airport Extreme and it is a few feet away. Also the USB drive is totally externally powered by its own supply (sadly a switching brick) so it is not relying on the Extreme for power. I have foil wrapped the drive power brick for what it is worth.

 

Has anyone done a test from an extreme or other router and then run it through another switch just to see if sound benefits? I would prefer not to add an additional connection if not necessary.

 

thanks for the input.

 

And yes I do think the best position for the ethernet isolator for a sound quality improvement may be right at the input to the Mac mini.

 

Agreed, intuitively it makes sense to place the network isolation transformer directly behind the music server or PC. Indeed I tried that first. In my environment, the SQ was unacceptable with this placement. There was a loss of signal and noise. Placing the transformers on my two RG9 coax connected devices, cable modem and TV tuner, yielded the best SQ results. I have no idea why.

 

YMMV.

 

In the end I went wireless using the native wifi adapter in my music streamer. Moving the Wifi Access Point (WAP), 1 foot from the streamer fixed the dropout issues. I can now stream 192 khz 24 bit flac files just fine. The manufacturer recommendation was that a wired connection was better. They were wrong.

 

Tranz - gave me the wireless idea. Later it occurred to me that this is also the preferred network connection method for the Auralic Aries streamer. Given the positive reviews, it seems they may have gotten it right. I am auditioning an Aries at home tonight.

[Superdad]

I have been following along with this thread of a while. Although I do not use any "network isolator" devices, I do a couple of things which yield very good results (in a Mac environment):

 

Instead of attaching my i7 Mac mini music player (w/linear PS, linear fan controller, booted from SD card, only USB to DAC and Ethernet connected) to my Cisco Gigabit with, I run it straight to the drive-sharing Mac mini on my desk--using a 25-ft. run of the wonderful BlueJeans/Belden Cat6a. I also configure the connection for Jumbo frames (MTU 9000).

So as not to loose internet/LAN connectivity on my desk computer, I use an Apple Thunderbolt>Ethernet Adaptor to make a second Ethernet connection to my switch (don't use the TB adaptor for the music server EN connection--that sounds really BAD). I turn on Ethernet sharing so that the music computer also has access to the web (for track title and art lookup or for streaming).

 

While the fat, bonded-pair BlueJeans/Belden cable is shielded, its shields are not tied at either end (no metal around the RJ45s), so the music computer stays galvanically isolated from the other computer and rest of the LAN. I think this really helps.

 

YMMV.

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[bixby]

Agreed, intuitively it makes sense to place the network isolation transformer directly behind the music server or PC. Indeed I tried that first. In my environment, the SQ was unacceptable with this placement. There was a loss of signal and noise. Placing the transformers on my two RG9 coax connected devices, cable modem and TV tuner, yielded the best SQ results. I have no idea why.

 

YMMV.

 

In the end I went wireless using the native wifi adapter in my music streamer. Moving the Wifi Access Point (WAP), 1 foot from the streamer fixed the dropout issues. I can now stream 192 khz 24 bit flac files just fine. The manufacturer recommendation was that a wired connection was better. They were wrong.

 

Tranz - gave me the wireless idea. Later it occurred to me that this is also the preferred network connection method for the Auralic Aries streamer. Given the positive reviews, it seems they may have gotten it right. I am auditioning an Aries at home tonight.

 

 

thanks again for the ideas. To help me thoroughly understand do you still use the ethernet isolators with the wireless streaming.

 

And to understand the wireless streaming part, would I just setup the external drive that is hooked to the airport as a shared drive and let the bits stream to the player on the mac?

 

This seems like a fairly easy comparative test to listen to this weekend, minus the isolators.

 

thanks

[bixby]

I have been following along with this thread of a while. Although I do not use any "network isolator" devices, I do a couple of things which yield very good results (in a Mac environment):

 

Instead of attaching my i7 Mac mini music player (w/linear PS, linear fan controller, booted from SD card, only USB to DAC and Ethernet connected) to my Cisco Gigabit with, I run it straight to the drive-sharing Mac mini on my desk--using a 25-ft. run of the wonderful BlueJeans/Belden Cat6a. I also configure the connection for Jumbo frames (MTU 9000).

So as not to loose internet/LAN connectivity on my desk computer, I use an Apple Thunderbolt>Ethernet Adaptor to make a second Ethernet connection to my switch (don't use the TB adaptor for the music server EN connection--that sounds really BAD). I turn on Ethernet sharing so that the music computer also has access to the web (for track title and art lookup or for streaming).

 

While the fat, bonded-pair BlueJeans/Belden cable is shielded, its shields are not tied at either end (no metal around the RJ45s), so the music computer stays galvanically isolated from the other computer and rest of the LAN. I think this really helps.

 

YMMV.

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

Alex, Hi. Thanks for the info. I have been following your posts on the ethernet cable. I assume the Blue Jeans cable is cat 6 and if the wireless test does not pan out, perhaps an upgrade form my cheap but good cat 6 to Blue Jeans might be in order.

[Superdad]

Alex, Hi. Thanks for the info. I have been following your posts on the ethernet cable. I assume the Blue Jeans cable is cat 6 and if the wireless test does not pan out, perhaps an upgrade form my cheap but good cat 6 to Blue Jeans might be in order.

 

BlueJeans Cable has a Cat 6 and a Cat 6a. I use the Cat 6a. Both are from Belden's top of the line, bonded-pair 10GX series and are 24AWG solid-core. Belden sells this wire only in bulk (no patch cords terminated by Belden with this cable), and BJC terminates it and provides a 2-page measurement report with each, 100% tested cable. The Cat 6a has a shield, while the Cat 6 does not. But the shield of the Cat 6a is not terminated. I' had a yet to be listened to 25-footer of the Cat 6 sitting under my desk for 4 months now. Just been too busy to compare it to the otherwise-the-same Cat 6a.

 

As I posted in the past, I used the described Mac-to-Mac set up and compared 5 differently constructed 25-foot Ethernet cables--all from what were supposed to be less than bargain-basement firms. The differences were shocking--at least in the context of what you would expect from an stinkin' Ethernet cable--and the BlueJeans/Belden walked away from the bunch.

 

BTW, Cat 7 cable, in which the individual pairs of wires are shielded, can not be properly used with standard RJ45 (more technically correct to be called an 8P8C connector). And the one cable I did try that was supposedly a Cat 7 sounded the worst of the bunch!

[cjf]

Curious as to what item you refer to in first paragraph, the router placed away from the coax cable? I use an Airport Extreme and it is a few feet away. Also the USB drive is totally externally powered by its own supply (sadly a switching brick) so it is not relying on the Extreme for power. I have foil wrapped the drive power brick for what it is worth.

 

Hello, I was referring to the cable modem. The main coaxial cable that comes into your house terminates to the cable modem and I have seen where the coaxial cable itself produces some ugly noise so the thought being that the whole cable modem should be considered a compromised piece. In my setup, I have the Ethernet cable that comes out of the cable modem going into a separate switch so that it is as far removed as possible from the switch that feeds the music server.

 

Some will no doubt consider this a bit overkill but I'm all about overkill

 

I've been very pleased with the Optical Ethernet isolator that I use in my system which lives just in front of my music server as a last line of defense which in effect completely isolates the music server from any noise found on the Ethernet wire. Yup, overkill again!

[bixby]

thanks for the clarity Alex and CJF. I tried going wireless with the usb drive hooked up to the airport extreme and wireless to the mac mini. No problems at all with streaming to Decibel. I can see how some may like this configuration as it sounded a bit smoother or perhaps quieter but in the end it lost some of the transparency I got with the hardwired ethernet from the AE to the mini.

 

Using one of my favorite live cds Edgar Meyer and Bela Fleck "Music for Two" I noticed the banjo and bass overtones to be rounded off a bit with the wireless setup. Also noticed applause sounded a bit more cupped hand than with the wired setup.

 

Now I suppose I need to try some of the Blue Jeans cable and see how that does.

[BrianC]

BlueJeans Cable has a Cat 6 and a Cat 6a. I use the Cat 6a. Both are from Belden's top of the line, bonded-pair 10GX series and are 24AWG solid-core. Belden sells this wire only in bulk (no patch cords terminated by Belden with this cable), and BJC terminates it and provides a 2-page measurement report with each, 100% tested cable. The Cat 6a has a shield, while the Cat 6 does not. But the shield of the Cat 6a is not terminated. I' had a yet to be listened to 25-footer of the Cat 6 sitting under my desk for 4 months now. Just been too busy to compare it to the otherwise-the-same Cat 6a.

 

As I posted in the past, I used the described Mac-to-Mac set up and compared 5 differently constructed 25-foot Ethernet cables--all from what were supposed to be less than bargain-basement firms. The differences were shocking--at least in the context of what you would expect from an stinkin' Ethernet cable--and the BlueJeans/Belden walked away from the bunch.

 

BTW, Cat 7 cable, in which the individual pairs of wires are shielded, can not be properly used with standard RJ45 (more technically correct to be called an 8P8C connector). And the one cable I did try that was supposedly a Cat 7 sounded the worst of the bunch!

 

Hi,

 

I am about to make a 25 m ethernet connection, and compared to other audio-related cables, I find the differences in price to be minor.

 

Regarding cat 6 vs. cat 7: Has anybody tried out Supra´s cat 7+?

[Superdad]

Hi,

 

I am about to make a 25 m ethernet connection, and compared to other audio-related cables, I find the differences in price to be minor.

 

Regarding cat 6 vs. cat 7: Has anybody tried out Supra´s cat 7+?

 

Yes, compared to other audio system cables, EN cable difference is minor. Also depends a lot on how you have your network set up. If I run my music computer through my Cicso switch, then while I still hear differences between the cable types/brands, it is less than the improvement I hear with the combination of a direct connection (Mac-to-Mac) and the best EN cable.

 

The Supra Cat7+ is about the only Cat7 (individually shielded pairs) that I would be interested in trying since Supra (really Jenving Technology) is a real and sophisticated maker of wire/cables. Supra is no Belden--they don't have the long expertise and enterprise network equipment experience that Belden has, and the particular design of Belden's 10GX cable (combination of bonded-pair and Spiral-Flex for pair randomization--look it up, it is not just BS, they explain it). But if an SSTP (screened, shielded, twisted pair) is going to sound good, then the 23AWG, solid-core Supra would be it.

 

I am not sure if their U.S. importer, SJÖFN HI FI, is stocking the Supra Cat7+. I'll have to give Lars a call.

 

Thanks for calling it to our attention Brian. Let us know if you do buy or compare the Supra to the BlueJeans/Belden. As you said, they are both very reasonably priced. I happen to like Supra's USB cable VERY much. In my system it has proven better than the (admittedly small number of) much more expensive USB cables I tried.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.