Network Isolation

[reverendo]

just read through this thread. very interesting stuff.

since I have one of those wireless ethernet switches (Netgear WNCE4004) I'm thinking that one of these ethernet isolators would be interesting between the switch and either the SBT or my DAC that has an ethernet input. Does this make any sense at all? I'm also contemplating testing a dedicated QNAP NAS for the DAC and maybe the link right before the DAC would be the place to insert the isolator. has anyone compared the different isolators? I just saw someone posting that compared the RL-1 to the Giso 1GB and preferred the latter.

since I'm at it, any suggestions on good, inexpensive LPS for the switch would be more than welcome.

thanks in advance

André

[lmitche]

thanks again for the ideas. To help me thoroughly understand do you still use the ethernet isolators with the wireless streaming.

 

And to understand the wireless streaming part, would I just setup the external drive that is hooked to the airport as a shared drive and let the bits stream to the player on the mac?

 

This seems like a fairly easy comparative test to listen to this weekend, minus the isolators.

 

thanks

 

Yes, I have left the isolators on the network with wireless streaming. There is no downside, as one of benefits is a better TV picture.

[Camb]

GISO

 

There is a lot of discussion and feedback about this device on the Meridian Digital Streaming user group site.

[jabbr]

Yes, compared to other audio system cables, EN cable difference is minor. Also depends a lot on how you have your network set up. If I run my music computer through my Cicso switch, then while I still hear differences between the cable types/brands, it is less than the improvement I hear with the combination of a direct connection (Mac-to-Mac) and the best EN cable.

 

The Supra Cat7+ is about the only Cat7 (individually shielded pairs) that I would be interested in trying since Supra (really Jenving Technology) is a real and sophisticated maker of wire/cables. Supra is no Belden--they don't have the long expertise and enterprise network equipment experience that Belden has, and the particular design of Belden's 10GX cable (combination of bonded-pair and Spiral-Flex for pair randomization--look it up, it is not just BS, they explain it). But if an SSTP (screened, shielded, twisted pair) is going to sound good, then the 23AWG, solid-core Supra would be it.

 

I am not sure if their U.S. importer, SJÖFN HI FI, is stocking the Supra Cat7+. I'll have to give Lars a call.

 

Thanks for calling it to our attention Brian. Let us know if you do buy or compare the Supra to the BlueJeans/Belden. As you said, they are both very reasonably priced. I happen to like Supra's USB cable VERY much. In my system it has proven better than the (admittedly small number of) much more expensive USB cables I tried.

 

Best,

 

--Alex C.

 

I'm assuming you are A/B testing 1Gbe vs 10Gbe switches?

Fiberoptic?

Are you ensuring that your wireless network uses oxygen free transmission?

[Superdad]

I'm assuming you are A/B testing 1Gbe vs 10Gbe switches?

Fiberoptic?

Are you ensuring that your wireless network uses oxygen free transmission?

 

Welcome to the CA forum.

 

I am assuming you are being sarcastic or trying to poke fun.

But as I said, I am not using ANY switch between the two computers.

 

It is all about the active interfaces on the computer attached to the DAC, and minuscule noise getting in and quality of signal so that the Ethernet PHY (and its PLLs and clocks) does not have "work hard" (thereby generating more crap) to construct a signal with integrity to pass along into the PCIe controller chip.

 

Perhaps check a few of my other posts and reports.

[spdif-usb]

Are you ensuring that your wireless network uses oxygen free transmission?

+1

[lmitche]

GISO

 

There is a lot of discussion and feedback about this device on the Meridian Digital Streaming user group site.

 

Thanks for this reference. The benefits claimed on the Meridian/GISO site match what I am hearing (and are described in a more articulate fashion) with the EMO EN-70HD and BAASKE isolation transformers. However, in my case I have a NAD M50 streamer and Auralic Vega DAC and no Meridian gear.

 

It appears that Germany is the world's center of excellence for LAN isolation with GISO, EMO and BAASKE all being German companies. It would be good to know if GISO is winding their own transformers, or sourcing from another manufacturer, like EMO.

 

It occurred to me that anyone can experience the benefits of LAN isolation prior to purchasing one of these transformers. Simply disconnect the ethernet cables from your cable modem and all other devices that are simultaneously connected to a RG-9 cable connection and your ethernet cable plant. TVs, network tuners like a CETON or HDHomeRun, home theater receivers, and MOCA adapters all come to mind as candidates for disconnect. Once done, sit down and listen to your music. This is a close approximation of what you will hear with good isolation transformers installed.

 

While the network transformers stop the cable RFI from polluting the network, the benefits of good ethernet cable are not to be diminished. Using the Belkin CAT6A cables stops additional interference from entering the cable plant within the house.

 

The Belkin CAT6a is constructed like a standard metal jacketed MC (aka BX) AC cable, with the conductors clad in a metal tube and a drain wire running through the cable for lower impedance. This design works for AC power distribution and works for ethernet signals.

 

I have a large Cat 6 cable plant in my house. This was built in an organic way over the past 15 years. I am slowly replacing all cable with the Belkin CAT 6A. Everything this cable touches sounds and/or looks better.

[jabbr]

 

I am assuming you are being sarcastic or trying to poke fun.

But as I said, I am not using ANY switch between the two computers.

 

Sure you can use Ethernet in a point to point fashion. Ethernet switches and for that matter routers are actually quite useful ... indeed we would not be having this conversation without them.

 

If you believe that it is the Ethernet switch that is somehow affecting your soundstage -- again there are so many other factors that might have a substantially greater affect that this doesn't affect my thinking -- in all seriousness you can use a fiberoptic Ethernet connection (and switch) which will provide 100% electrical isolation between the server, switch and client computers.

 

Similarly a wireless connection provides 100% electrical isolation (even in the presence of oxygen containing fields :-))

 

On the other hand, wireless has a substantially greater network latency. Does that matter?

 

It is all about the active interfaces on the computer attached to the DAC, and minuscule noise getting in and quality of signal so that the Ethernet PHY (and its PLLs and clocks) does not have "work hard" (thereby generating more crap) to construct a signal with integrity to pass along into the PCIe controller chip.

 

Perhaps check a few of my other posts and reports.

 

With all due respect, no its not all about the active connections. Bandwidth and latency are far far more important. For audio applications latency more than bandwidth.

 

A classic computer science/engineering mistake is to spend 99% of your time optimizing only 1% of a problem.

 

Consider this: how many of you are storing your music on hard drives?

How many of you are mirroring your drives?

How are you monitoring bit rot?

[Miska]

How are you monitoring bit rot?

 

Btrfs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[fabien44]

@slavo,

why don't you use Wifi instead of ethernet? No link no need to purify.

Auralic advised also Wifi for best SQ.

[jtwrace]

Yes, use wireless for the ARIES as long as your network is good enough. I use an isolator between the modem and router for its intended purpose.

[Bazinga]

Which isolator do you use and can you hear a difference ?

[davide256]

Hi Guys - I was recently told by a very respected colleague in the industry about these Ethernet network isolation devices. They do make sense and I think I'll get one in the near future. Does anyone have experience with thee or similar products?

 

Baaske Medical Inc., Medical Systems, Medical Isolation

Fixing the wrong problem... you want your ethernet attached gear to be DC powered in which case AC leakage shouldn't exist.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Fixing the wrong problem... you want your ethernet attached gear to be DC powered in which case AC leakage shouldn't exist.

Can you explain a bit more?

[davide256]

The isolators at the start of the thread are to protect in a hospital environment where the AC and equipment used can be problematic... a "sledgehammer" level of protection. The network gear you have should be using AC to DC converters as routers behave better when DC powered. If you want to spend money on noise reduction, look at improving those power supplies first so that the noise never gets into the gear. Think source power purity, not power isolator... which in my book is just as dirty a word as "frequency equalizer"

[lmitche]

For computer audiophiles, the primary benefit of the network isolator is removing RFI from the cable system coming from cable modems and networked digital tuners. 'able is designed to deliver RF. Unfortunately it leaks past any connected device.

[Ben-M]

The Supra Cat7+ is about the only Cat7 (individually shielded pairs) that I would be interested in trying since Supra (really Jenving Technology) is a real and sophisticated maker of wire/cables. Supra is no Belden, but if an SSTP (screened, shielded, twisted pair) is going to sound good, then the 23AWG, solid-core Supra would be it.

 

I am not sure if their U.S. importer, SJÖFN HI FI, is stocking the Supra Cat7+. I'll have to give Lars a call.

 

Hey Alex, did you ever get around to contacting them?

 

And how about anybody else; have any of you tried the Supra Cat7+ or another "real" Cat7?

[khollister]

While I'm certain the a good CAT7 cable would be beneficial in rejecting radiated EMI or crosstalk within the cable, I cant see it having much impact on what is likely to be the greater problem of broadband noise getting injected into the pairs at the source (meaning cable modem, switch or whatever) and then being passed down the line. My Aries is connected by 5GHz wifi on a dedicated SSID (network) to an Airport Extreme about 4 feet away. That AE is connected to my DOCIS3 wideband cable modem directly and also to the rest of my LAN.

 

I swapped the 1 foot Monoprice CAT6 cable between the AE and modem for a 1 foot BJ Belden CAT6a and did hear a slight improvement, so I am not totally discounting what effect a Cat7 cable might have. Although I'm at a loss to explain, as an electrical engineer, why the Aries would be impacted at the other end of a wireless link aside from possible coupling back through the power line.

[Paul R]

I have had this link in my bookmarks for several years. It is pretty much a good write up that describes most of this in English. Hint, don't use a $30 Chinese Switch.

 

-Paul

 

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

[Superdad]

I have had this link in my bookmarks for several years. It is pretty much a good write up that describes most of this in English. Hint, don't use a $30 Chinese Switch.

 

Good paper Paul, thanks!

[Superdad]

Hey Alex, did you ever get around to contacting them?

 

And how about anybody else; have any of you tried the Supra Cat7+ or another "real" Cat7?

 

 

Hi Ben:

 

I actually have been trying to reach Lars at SJÖFN for a couple of weeks. My Mac-to-Mac direct link (no switches!) is 25 feet, so I'm not sure if he will have stock of such a length. I also still need to try the 25-ft. unshielded BlueJeans/Belden Cat6 that I bought last year versus their shielded Cat6a. One of the things different about the BJ Cat6a is that, although it is shielded, they do not tie the shield at either end. To me this is a good think as it maintains galvanic isolation between the computers (though truth be told, the minis' Ethernet jacks don't appear to connect any connector shell to anything). I could see grounding one end of the shield to drain off RF/EMI.

 

As for Class F/Cat7, our consumer gear does not take advantage of the extra pins available with the special connectors (GG45, TERA, etc.)--nor are there many firms selling cables with those connectors. So the only construction difference with Cat7 cable is that individual pairs are also shielded. But AFAIK, every company who does that uses stranded wire for the paired conductors, and fairly small gauge at that so the cable doesn't end up 1/2" thick and stiff as a board. Whereas the BlueJeans/Belden does use solid conductors of heavier gauge, along with Belden's bonded-pair adhesive and other geometry tricks. Beating it is going to be tough.

 

BTW, beware of most of the cheap "Cat7" cables being peddled out there. I bought some Keydex Cat7, only to discover that it used copper-clad aluminum stranding. That cable faired worse in my comparison tests than 10-year old Cat5 I had laying around. Remember, copper is not cheap these days!

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

[Richard Dale]

I have had this link in my bookmarks for several years. It is pretty much a good write up that describes most of this in English. Hint, don't use a $30 Chinese Switch.

 

-Paul

 

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

 

Thanks very much for the link, a very interesting read.

[EuroDriver]

Thanks very much for the link, a very interesting read.

 

+ 1 a fascinating encyclopedic review, I learnt a lot !

[EuroDriver]

Today Geoffrey Armstrong and I tested a pair of Fibre Media Converters

Gigabit Single-Mode Media Converter MC210CS - Welcome to TP-LINK

in between the NAA and the rest of the network and it made a big improvement to the sound.

 

The connections are

 

[Network Router (1 Gb)] - - -- CAT5 -- - - [MC210CS] - - - 2 fibre optic cables - - - - -[MC210CS] - - - - -CAT5 - - - -[NAA computer]- - - - USB - --- - [DAC]

 

- SMPS powering first MC210CS and cheap LPS powering second MC210CS

 

 

We did this test on two systems

 

System A

 

HQ Player on Win 8.1 MAC Pro > NAA on WS2012+AO Minimal Server Mode on DH61DL i7 > TotalDac D1 USB > Exasound E22 > Hypex Ncore > KEF Blade

 

System B

 

HQ Player on MAC OSX Yosemite on MAC Pro > NAA on SOTM SMS-100 (Linux) > USB > Grimm LS1 digital active speaker

 

 

For both systems, the optical isolation on the LAN connection made a big and very big improvement to the realism of the sound.

 

The cost of the 2 x MC210CS and the 2 meter fibre optic cable was about Euro 110. The cost of the voltage selectable LPS was Euro 11, but made very big difference to the sound quality compared to using the OEM SMPS !

 

 

What is hard to discern is how much LAN switch power SMPS noise, and how much HQ Player Desktop CPU noise were we keeping out of the NAA. But never mind, what ever the source, keeping it out of the NAA made a big upgrade in sound realism. We both heard sound quality / realism we have never heard before. We repeated again and again, its sounds like live :-)

[EuroDriver]

Fibre media converters should also be effective for the Auralic Aries and JRiver Id