SGC - sonicTransporter Series and Signalyst HQPlayer 4 Embedded

[Miska]

8 hours ago, diecaster said:

The Windows 10 OEM version is significantly cheaper than the version that is not tied to hardware. Your model is the other way around.

 

My model has two different products. It is like comparing Windows IoT, Desktop and Server editions. It is just that one of the products is targeted to OEM and another for end-users. I agree that the Desktop version is too cheap, but I haven't increased the price in years...

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, soares said:

Juddi, you've been following closely this thread and we have already exchanged a couple of messages so I do not understand how can you be lost on the number of licences I got.

 

Yes, sorry, I talk to so many people here and over email that a lot of times I'm especially unable to remember whom I speak to over email is who here on this forum.

 

So Roon works to 768k PCM on the same computer and doesn't run into white noise? Interesting... For me that would be first player to work without white noise to a Chord DAC, because so far what didn't work: HQPlayer at 705.6/768k PCM (mostly works on Linux), Spotify on Windows at 44.1k PCM (works for about one minute), Spotify and Tidal running on iPhone and connected to Mojo using Apple's Camera Connection Kit at 44.1k PCM (works for about one minute). All these cases depend heavily on the USB cable used, some cables work better than others.

 

5 hours ago, soares said:

As you know I have a licence on my old Mac and another one in my STi5

 

Are these both for HQPlayer Desktop?

 

5 hours ago, soares said:

So, if I would want to use HQplayer I would need to buy a 3rd license for instance to use on  STi7 configured for Windows.

 

I sell three types of licenses at the moment: HQPlayer Desktop for Mac/Linux, HQPlayer Desktop for Windows and HQPlayer Embedded. So if you want all three you need to buy three licenses. However you can get bundle discount when you get HQPlayer Desktop for all platforms - also if you want to add second platform later.

[Miska]

6 hours ago, diecaster said:

I need to test something for more than 30 minutes to know that it works well. I have too many horror stories to tell from my software development and testing days to think 30 minutes is enough to adequately test something.

 

It is 30 minutes per run, then you restart it and have another 30 minutes and so on. License allows you to run the trial this way for a month. But there's no technical restriction for the month part, only for the 30 minutes per run.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, diecaster said:

I said the analogy was rediculous. What does a hardware DSP chip have in common with a piece of software that is not installed by default and you have to buy a license for if you want to use it? The answer is nothing. They are completely different cases. 

 

I can give you another example:

Oscilloscopes and other measurement gear, like my audio analyzer. They have software options that are built-in, but available only after buying an activation key for the feature. And they are tied to the particular device/model.

 

Luckily my software option is cheap compared those. Those feature options for measurement gear costs thousands and are much simpler ones. Makes me feel sometimes that I'm selling stuff for way too cheap.

 

[diecaster]

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I can give you another example:

Oscilloscopes and other measurement gear, like my audio analyzer. They have software options that are built-in, but available only after buying an activation key for the feature. And they are tied to the particular device/model.

 

 

Do any of the oscilloscope software options cost 30% of the price of the oscilloscope? Also, oscilloscopes don't get upgraded at anywhere near the rate that computers do. Even when compared to servers. My race car ECU has the same kind of software options that can be turned on. But none of the features cost 30% the price of the ECU. The ECU can installed in my next race car.

 

If your software was priced at 10% of the cost of the server, I would be worried about it. So, you examples don't really fit the situation.

 

If you raised the price of your software, I would be even less inclined to buy it because I would be risking throwing away even more money if I upgraded my server. If you charged more for your software but the license could be moved to another server if/when I upgraded, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Heck, if you charged a reasonable new server activation fee we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd have the software and an ultraRendu to make the best use of it. Instead of trying to understand where I am coming from, you and Jesus want to tell me how stupid I am.

[Miska]

21 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Do any of the oscilloscope software options cost 30% of the price of the oscilloscope?

 

Yes they do, can add up to be as much as the measurement device. And the features are much simpler DSP stuff than what HQPlayer does.

 

Just like damn ink cartridges for printers!

 

28 minutes ago, diecaster said:

My race car ECU has the same kind of software options that can be turned on. But none of the features cost 30% the price of the ECU. The ECU can installed in my next race car.

 

So does my Volvo's original ECU. Higher power version of the car is exactly same, just different ECU tuning and costs 3500€ more. That's why I purchased the cheaper one because I know I can upgrade it with third party tuning after the warranty has expired. But I cannot transfer the tuning to a new car. They will charge 500€ again for tuning a new car.

 

For my previous Mini, I had ECU tuning from Superchips and it was tied to the car's VIN, so that I don't go around and install it to friends car too. And it costs freaking 500+€ for just small data set that takes them less than a day to make! I've been working on HQPlayer for 20 years!

 

22 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Also, oscilloscopes don't get upgraded at anywhere near the rate that computers do.

 

If you want to think streamers as computers and not as appliances or other HiFi equipment.

 

24 minutes ago, diecaster said:

If your software was priced at 10% of the cost of the server, I would be worried about it. So, you examples don't really fit the situation.

 

You only know the price only because I sell it directly too to allow people build their own servers. Unlike competing solutions.

 

34 minutes ago, diecaster said:

If you raised the price of your software, I would be even less inclined to buy it because I would be risking throwing away even more money if I upgraded my server.

 

I was talking about price of the Desktop version. But also note that Embedded has features Desktop version doesn't have.

 

35 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Heck, if you charged a reasonable new server activation fee we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Well, that is something I can think about! You'd probably need to ask me for a coupon code, but it should be doable. I need to deactivate old licenses which is pain...

 

For me, selling HQPlayer Embedded directly is not the primary means selling it, but instead through hardware manufacturers as part of the hardware.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, soares said:

as I mentioned before my Qutest is not compatible with the HQplayer upsampling DSD256 and PCM768. Roon upsampling  is but the quality of the filters provided by HQplayer are far greater.

 

Now I'm playing through following setup with HQPlayer upsampling to 768/32 and microRendu running the latest NAA updates. So far 30 minutes without white noise... This just emphasizes my earlier findings that the Chord device is really really sensitive to the USB source (and cable). That short USB cable is the one that comes with Mojo.

 

[Sloop John B]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

But also note that Embedded has features Desktop version doesn't have.

 

I must have missed this, can you outline these features?

 

.sjb

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

My model has two different products. It is like comparing Windows IoT, Desktop and Server editions. It is just that one of the products is targeted to OEM and another for end-users. I agree that the Desktop version is too cheap, but I haven't increased the price in years...

 

I might help with the tire kickers:)

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

It is 30 minutes per run, then you restart it and have another 30 minutes and so on. License allows you to run the trial this way for a month. But there's no technical restriction for the month part, only for the 30 minutes per run.

Most the of the feedback I get is from customers who tried HQ Player and instantly knew they could not live without. 

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I can give you another example:

Oscilloscopes and other measurement gear, like my audio analyzer. They have software options that are built-in, but available only after buying an activation key for the feature. And they are tied to the particular device/model.

 

Luckily my software option is cheap compared those. Those feature options for measurement gear costs thousands and are much simpler ones. Makes me feel sometimes that I'm selling stuff for way too cheap.

 

My analyzer works the same way and it's these very ad-on features that make the unit more valuable should I want to sell it in the future. 

[Miska]

56 minutes ago, Sloop John B said:

I must have missed this, can you outline these features?

 

So far most notable ones are support for realtime inputs (digital and analog) and UPnP Renderer functionality.

 

HQPlayer Desktop is as name says primarily a player application for a normal computer OS and made to function as such. HQPlayer Embedded is more like what people call "streamer" and "upsampler" as hardware devices, it just puts both of those functionalities to the same box and does more than what those would traditionally do (convolution engine for digital room correction and such). These two are used in somewhat different way, although there is some overlap when used with something like Roon or HQPDcontrol.

 

[Miska]

Regarding pricing, looking at percentage of price compared to hardware device it runs on is not fair. SGC sonicTransporter is just one of the most affordable products offering it...

 

[mansr]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

I can give you another example:

Oscilloscopes and other measurement gear, like my audio analyzer. They have software options that are built-in, but available only after buying an activation key for the feature. And they are tied to the particular device/model.

Many of the options on Tektronix scopes are transferable (within the same product range).

 

4 hours ago, diecaster said:

Do any of the oscilloscope software options cost 30% of the price of the oscilloscope?

Make that 300%. The 4-channel, 100 MHz bandwidth option in the Tektronix MDO3000 series costs about £2500, the bandwidth upgrade to 500 MHz £7800. In fairness, the upgrade comes with a new set of probes "worth" £2000, so it's more than just a software key. This option is not transferable to another scope. (Prices from Farnell UK.)

 

To be clear, I'm not defending such pricing models, just giving an example.

[Miska]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

Many of the options on Tektronix scopes are transferable (within the same product range).

 

Until you want to "upgrade" as discussed here, where newer fancier product line couple of years later uses different license dongle. I had this issue once myself with Tektronix "FFT" option dongle. And that was just a software feature, no new hardware. Just enabled spectrum analysis functionality. And I just remember it was over 1000€.

 

For hardware dongles it is easier to arrange transfers without ending several units having the option enabled, after being paid once. If I used those USB license dongles that would be easier. But as I said, I don't like the idea of increasing my license price by 150+€ just because I need to also sell a small USB dongle (and they charge crazy yearly license fees for the dongle software stack too)!

 

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

To be clear, I'm not defending such pricing models, just giving an example.

 

The prices they ask are quite a bit different level and I don't particularly like that every small thing comes with big price tag and separate option.

 

My audio analyzer also has bandwidth option license key and that is tied to the analyzer unit serial number. It only enables wider bandwidth, no hardware changes or any extra accessories.

 

[mansr]

I don't see the point in attempting to lock down software with licence keys. It only makes life difficult for honest, paying customers while the pirates will do their thing regardless.

[R1200CL]

On 5/30/2018 at 12:29 PM, vortecjr said:

You can't take the digital signal processor (DSP) out of a receiver and place it in your next receiver, but you pay for it even if you don't use it. Jussi is protecting is intellectual property and I really don't see an issue. SGC does not preinstall the software and include its cost in the base cost of the product because not everyone will use HQ Player Embedded. You can install the software and run it for free under the trial. If you want the software you have to pay for it and the license will be tied the unit.    

 

Well Jesus, if I understand this correctly, I cannot sell my i5 with the HQPlayer license as that license is personal. 

 

Any other HW with SW tied to it can be sold. 

 

Am I correct ?

[R1200CL]

On 5/30/2018 at 12:56 PM, diecaster said:

He might as well charge a $99 annual fee to use the software.

 

I would be happy to pay that for a year, before I purchase a license. 

Then I could test it out properly. Or even $60 for 6 months ?

[R1200CL]

12 hours ago, vortecjr said:

If you can't make up your mind in 30 minutes chances are you are not going to. It's really your loss because the rest of us are enjoying it. 

 

This I totally disagree with.

It’s quite time consuming switching between Roon with or without upsampling with or without RC and different DACs. 

 

I would need minimum a week.

A month would be fair. 

[R1200CL]

16 hours ago, Miska said:

That has been one option in my mind too, but the price would be likely somewhere between 10€ and 20€ per month with one year minimum subscription.

 

I bit expensive, as then you could have purchased the license for the price of a 2 year subscription. 

 

However if one could deduct the one year subscription when purchase, or the license is yours after 24 to 36 month, I probably go for it. 

 

As stated in other posts, apart from a quite high price, the 30 minuets evaluation time is to narrow for me. 

I own the desktop version and I expect the SonicTransporter version to be better.

 

I can only hope for a nice Black Friday sale.

Unfortunately  I’m  afraid it will be a bundle with the SonicTransporter. 

 

[R1200CL]

17 hours ago, Miska said:

But as an example, I can buy navigation option for my car's IVI system (Volvo). Dealer will install it and activate the software module, the software option costs 1500€ - not including the installation work that would be charged separately. And if I sell the car and buy a BMW instead, I cannot transfer this navigation option to the new car. Not even if I buy another Volvo.

 

If I could sell my SonicTransporter with an activated license of HQPlayer, you have a valid point, but according to our previous conversations I can’t sell the license as it’s personal and linked to my email. 

 

Please correct me if im wrong. 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

 

Well Jesus, if I understand this correctly, I cannot sell my i5 with the HQPlayer license as that license is personal. 

 

Any other HW with SW tied to it can be sold. 

 

Am I correct ?

 

I can buy your computer and any software you have licensed I will be able to run?  Cool, when are you selling your computer, and have you licensed any expensive software?  :D 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

I can buy your computer and any software you have licensed I will be able to run?  Cool, when are you selling your computer, and have you licensed any expensive software? 

 

I have a Theta Casablanca 4a with Dirac live. That SW needs activation. But you can of cause purchase my Theta with that SW ?

 

Would be even more interesting if Miska could sell HQPlayer embedded to Theta and ATI.

 

What products have HQPlayer embedded included btw ?

[diecaster]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

If I could sell my SonicTransporter with an activated license of HQPlayer, you have a valid point, but according to our previous conversations I can’t sell the license as it’s personal and linked to my email. 

 

Please correct me if im wrong. 

 

Whoa! Are you telling me that the license is tied to both me and my sonicTransporter and if I sell my sonicTransporter, the HQPlayer license does not go with it? Now that is not anything like Windows 10 OEM or software activated in hardware Miska has referenced that I know about. Those are all tied to the hardware only.

 

You can't have it both ways and be reasonable. Either the license is tied to me and can be moved to other servers or it is tied to the hardware and stays enabled for the life of the hardware whoever owns it.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, diecaster said:

You can't have it both ways and be reasonable. Either the license is tied to me and can be moved to other servers or it i tied to the hardware and stays enabled fro the life of the hardware whoever owns it.

Yes, either of those options is perfectly reasonable. Imposing both restrictions strikes me as rather greedy.