Best CPU for hqplayer

[El Guapo]

3 hours ago, ArcticSapien said:

Trying to decide between DDR4 vs DDR5

Allow me to share my experiences.

Me and one of my friends are both have HQPlayer Embedded running on pretty similar machines except mine is i9 12900K / DDR5 4800MHz CL40 and his is i7 12700K / DDR4 3600MHz CL16.

 

If you're aiming on DSD512 w/o GPU, the DDR4 or DDR5 both can handle it very well up to nearly 90% of the filters with AMSDM7ECv2 (if you can properly over clocking the CPU / RAM / RING). Few heaviest filters are still need GPU tho. The chart I made was in last December but I think it didn't change in v4.29.2.

 

ASDM7ECv2 to DSD512 or x48

 

But if you're aiming on DSD1024 or x48, you definitely need DDR5 modules (even the latency spec is make you doubt) and a decent GPU like RTX3070 or RTX3080TI. My friend's 12700K / DDR4 couldn't get DSD1024 even OC properly. The door key might be DDR5.

 

Here's the most updated performance chart I made:

DSD5EC to DSD1024 or x48

 

AMSDM7EC 512fs+ to DSD1024 or x48

 

One more thing... if you are serious about the EC to DSD1024, please choose a decent power supply and case / cooling system as well. When using poly-sinc-long-ip filter with DSD5EC or AMSDM7EC offloading by RTX3080TI upsampling to DSD1024 you'll see the number like this. GPU consumed more than 300watts is not kidding.

 

[ArcticSapien]

Thank you! @StreamFidelity @El Guapo This is great info. Your charts above are awesome. Great to know that I can run 90% of the filters without a GPU.

 

Good tip on the PSU. I was thinking of 650 Watts (without GPU). What power rating did you folks use (which includes your GPUs)?

 

The i9-12900 is indeed highly capable but I've read that they run very hot. I was planning on an m-ITX MoBo but may have to reconsider m-ATX and a larger casing for better ventilation.

 

The DDR5 costs an arm and a leg! Unfortunately the MoBos only cater for either DDR4 or DDR5... can't get the DDR4 first and swap for DDR5 later without having to change MoBo too.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, ArcticSapien said:

Thanks for all the info here. Very helpful!

I saw @Miska comment earlier that DDR5 works nicely... but noted that DDR5 latencies are poor (although they do have a bigger bandwidth). Does the HQPlayer require low latency?

I'm encouraged by @StreamFidelity's success to get DSD512 using i9-12900. Is a GPU needed?

 

I'm gonna build an audio PC for HQP, using i9-12900 + Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Ultra + 32Gb RAM (but without GPU)... aiming for DSD512. Trying to decide between DDR4 vs DDR5 (which are still very expensive now). The use of DDR5-5200 alone will increase my rig cost by +10%... not sure if worth it!?

(I'm using Roon server on a separate NUC).

 

If you look at latencies in terms of CL, you need to take into account that it is in clock cycles. So when you divide the CL figure with the memory clock frequency you get the actual latency in time.

 

In addition, DDR5 uses wider bus and higher clocks, so the bandwidth is higher.

 

Then rest is about balancing the features. Bandwidth plays highest role, followed by latency. For Pro, latency is major, for Desktop/Embedded bandwidth.

 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

On the msi board, AVX512 can be enabled without disabling the E-Cores. I haven't tried if it actually works though. 

 

Essentially it requires that OS doesn't try to schedule threads/processes using AVX-512 instructions on E-cores. Otherwise the there will be process termination due to invalid instruction exception right away when AVX-512 instruction hits E-core. This also applies OS threads, including in-kernel ones. If that happens to kernel thread you are greeted with kernel panic / BSOD.

 

[ArcticSapien]

Thanks @Miska. The latency of DDR5-5200 is ~17 ns vs. ~10 ns for a DDR4-3600. But DDR5 overall performance is still better.

I wonder if the number of CPU Cores or number of CPU Threads are more important for the HQP, eg the Intel i9 vs. AMD Threadripper. 

 

(Just saw that I won't need high-wattage PSUs if I'm not using a GPU. The GPUs are really power hungry.)

[Miska]

1 hour ago, ArcticSapien said:

Thanks @Miska. The latency of DDR5-5200 is ~17 ns vs. ~10 ns for a DDR4-3600. But DDR5 overall performance is still better.

I wonder if the number of CPU Cores or number of CPU Threads are more important for the HQP, eg the Intel i9 vs. AMD Threadripper. 

 

Number of cores and core clock speed are both important. Threadripper suffers from lower clock speeds.

 

1 hour ago, ArcticSapien said:

(Just saw that I won't need high-wattage PSUs if I'm not using a GPU. The GPUs are really power hungry.)

 

Yes, that's the case. I'm using Seasonic Prime PX-1300 PSU for the current i9-12900K + RTX2080Ti combo.

 

[ArcticSapien]

On 2/4/2022 at 10:31 PM, Miska said:

I'm using Seasonic Prime PX-1300 PSU

That's a big-ass PSU!

I guess some HQP filters will max out the i9-12900 and run hot. Will likely need a Liquid Cooler. I'm also considering under-volting it slightly to control the temperature.

[SwissBear]

9 minutes ago, ArcticSapien said:

That's a big-ass PSU!

I guess some HQP filters will max out the i9-12900 and run hot. Will likely need a Liquid Cooler. I'm also considering under-volting it slightly to control the temperature.

 

I invite you to be careful with liquid coolers as many of them are not supported under Linux if this is you goal. I was surprised to discover that the one I bought (Gigabyte Waterforce 280) needed a program running under Windows to adjust fans according to needs. This makes usage touchy IMHO. 

[wolft]

Hello, a few questions about a new HQPlayer server: 

what are the advantages of a current Intel 12900K compared to an Apple M1 or M1Pro? I am particularly interested in the selection of modulators and filters, especially with PSM --> DSD. I don't want any discussion about the operating system or any differences in sound. Is a Mac Mini M1Pro worth the wait? What I like about the Mac Mini is the overall successful hardware configuration. Best regards wolfgang

[Miska]

2 hours ago, ArcticSapien said:

I guess some HQP filters will max out the i9-12900 and run hot. Will likely need a Liquid Cooler. I'm also considering under-volting it slightly to control the temperature.

 

Mine is cooled by the usual Noctua NH-D15S chromax.black cooler.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, wolft said:

Hello, a few questions about a new HQPlayer server: 

what are the advantages of a current Intel 12900K compared to an Apple M1 or M1Pro?

 

12900K is like M1 would be if it had 16 performance cores and 8 efficiency cores. Maybe Apple will make something like that some day for the bigger desktop Macs.

 

2 hours ago, wolft said:

Is a Mac Mini M1Pro worth the wait?

 

I would go straight to one with M1Max, already because of the double memory bandwidth. But between M1 and M1Pro I would certainly go with M1Pro if possible.

 

[TRiN]

7 hours ago, wolft said:

Is a Mac Mini M1Pro worth the wait?

 

Also awaiting for its release but some of the performance can be extrapolated from the Macbook Pro with M1 Pro/Max chips, which has been out for a little while now but haven't seen any actual usage comparisons with the recent HQPlayer builds. Not sure if anyone has any results to share here.

 

To my understanding the Mac Mini M1 has an upper ceiling of DSD256/ASMD7ECv2 with most filters (or DSD1024/non-EC modulators). Thanks to @El Guapo for compiling the below performance summary table:-

 

Hoping to gauge if the (Macbook) M1 Pro can handle DSD512/ASMD7ECv2 with most filters and where the M1 Max chip further improves on HQP playback.

 

[oneguy]

On 2/3/2022 at 4:18 PM, StreamFidelity said:

Lowest latencies are always good. DDR5 makes up for the high latencies with higher clock rates and more bandwidth. But it costs more power consumption.

 

A GPU is not necessary. The performance of Intel's i9-12900K CPU is amazing. The efficiency and quality of HQPlayer are as well. 

A fairly heavy filter and modulator with DSD512x48 pose no problems and sounds great.

 

 

Was this the run with CPU temps in the 90-95C range? How long did you let it run for temps to stabilize?

 

I had to take a break from tweaking due to some family stuff but I’m looking to re-attack DSD512. 

[StreamFidelity]

12 minutes ago, oneguy said:

Was this the run with CPU temps in the 90-95C range? How long did you let it run for temps to stabilize?

 

In the BIOS I changed the CPU clock from static to dynamic. This flexibly adjusts the clock frequency, which lowers the temperature for the individual cores. It is the screenshot above. The CPU temperature is 76/77°C.

 

 

23 minutes ago, oneguy said:

I had to take a break from tweaking due to some family stuff

 

I hope nothing serious. Family always comes first. 👍

 

[Miska]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:21 AM, TRiN said:

Hoping to gauge if the (Macbook) M1 Pro can handle DSD512/ASMD7ECv2 with most filters and where the M1 Max chip further improves on HQP playback.

 

Since the modulator threads already drive four performance cores to near max, I'm not expecting much about DSD512 capability. But more performance cores enable more filters.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, StreamFidelity said:

In the BIOS I changed the CPU clock from static to dynamic. This flexibly adjusts the clock frequency, which lowers the temperature for the individual cores. It is the screenshot above. The CPU temperature is 76/77°C.

 

I think the thermal limit is something like 95C? My i5-11600 system says critical limit is 100C. So as long as core temps don't hit 95C you should be fine, if it goes beyond, then performance will begin to suffer due to thermal throttling.

 

[oneguy]

1 hour ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

In the BIOS I changed the CPU clock from static to dynamic. This flexibly adjusts the clock frequency, which lowers the temperature for the individual cores. It is the screenshot above. The CPU temperature is 76/77°C.

 

 

 

I hope nothing serious. Family always comes first. 👍

 

Yeah it was serious but I’ve been keeping myself busy to get through it.

 

I’ll try some stuff after work today and see where I land. My initial attempts at DSD512/poly-sinc-xtr-mp/7ECv2 were unsuccessful due to thermal throttle when 3 of the CPU cores bumped up against the limit I had set at 95C so I need to figure out how to fix that and it would be nice if I could get a more even temps across the P cores. From memory, I want to say it was a 15C between the 3 highest P cores and the rest. 

[oneguy]

@El Guapodid you ever try underclocking the GPU to lower power consumption? If so, how much less power did it consume? I have read comments online of 20–30% reduction in temp increase from idle for a less than a 5% reduction in performance and I was wondering if you had observed the same. 

[El Guapo]

6 hours ago, oneguy said:

@El Guapodid you ever try underclocking the GPU to lower power consumption? If so, how much less power did it consume? I have read comments online of 20–30% reduction in temp increase from idle for a less than a 5% reduction in performance and I was wondering if you had observed the same. 

Hi oneguy,

I didn't evaluate under clocking technique since I was focusing on 2ch 1024fs and 8ch 256fs. They all need overclocking to squeeze more computing power... 😅And I only monitored the whole system ampere consumption from power strip. Recent observation was ~3.4A from 115V outlet (roughly 400 watts) for 8ch 256fs using 5EC modulator / poly-sinc-gauss-long filters with 3080TI GPU. Will try under clocking when I get home next week.

[StreamFidelity]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

I think the thermal limit is something like 95C? My i5-11600 system says critical limit is 100C.

The TJUNCTION of the i9-12900K CPU is 100°C. In the BIOS, I have set the limit at 95°C. It's a precaution.

 

11 hours ago, Miska said:

So as long as core temps don't hit 95C you should be fine

Materials suffer and age faster when the temperature is too high. The SQ goes down for me when the temperature gets too high. I therefore prefer a temperature that should not exceed 80°C if possible. With your powerful algorithms, this can sometimes not be realized. 😉

[Miska]

5 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

Materials suffer and age faster when the temperature is too high.

 

It should last for many years 24/7 use under the rated temperatures. And in any case the computer is valid for max 5 years. So far I haven't ever got a single broken CPU although my devices run 24/7 and I don't care if they run hot as long as they run fast and don't thermal throttle. If CPU gets burned, then I'll just replace it with a new one.

 

CPU has a built-in thermal protection, so no need to worry. But when you hit it, it will slow down which will then likely cause drop-outs in audio.

 

5 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

The SQ goes down for me when the temperature gets too high. I therefore prefer a temperature that should not exceed 80°C if possible. With your powerful algorithms, this can sometimes not be realized. 😉

 

Why would the temperature matter for that? If you are worried, then you should use a NAA, then it certainly doesn't matter how hot your HQPlayer server runs... 😉

 

If I run poly-sinc-xla + ASDM7ECv2 combo to DSD512 on my i5-11600 temps hit max 72C, and I have set all fan profiles to "Silent" so the curve prioritizes acoustic noise over temps:

jussi@ubuntu-srv:~$ sensors
coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Package id 0:  +72.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 0:        +68.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1:        +59.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 2:        +62.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 3:        +72.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 4:        +59.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 5:        +62.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)

acpitz-acpi-0
Adapter: ACPI interface
temp1:        +27.8°C  (crit = +105.0°C)

nvme-pci-0100
Adapter: PCI adapter
Composite:    +41.9°C  (low  = -273.1°C, high = +81.8°C)
                       (crit = +84.8°C)
Sensor 1:     +41.9°C  (low  = -273.1°C, high = +65261.8°C)
Sensor 2:     +50.9°C  (low  = -273.1°C, high = +65261.8°C)

 

[StreamFidelity]

36 minutes ago, Miska said:

If CPU gets burned, then I'll just replace it with a new one.

Greta won't like that. 😂

 

37 minutes ago, Miska said:

then you should use a NAA

I did - in the T+A SDV 3100 HV. 👍

[Quadman]

22 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I think the thermal limit is something like 95C? My i5-11600 system says critical limit is 100C. So as long as core temps don't hit 95C you should be fine, if it goes beyond, then performance will begin to suffer due to thermal throttling.

Wow, and I get nervous when my Ave CPU temp in HWinfo64 goes above 70 C which it does on DSD512 w EC7 or 5 V2 (72-75C).  I have an HTPC case with Noctura NH-9DL cooler and 2 fans in push pull configuration.  DSD1024 ave CPU temps in the uppers 40's and 512 w ECv2 in the 70's.

 

I also cannot get my 11900K to play any DSD512 with ECV2 modulators with any HQP version except 14.4.3, even when I turn off AVX512 in Bios, 4.16.1 and any 4.15 will not play DSD512 w ECV2 even with 2s filters.  14.4.3 I can play any 2s filter at 512 EC7 or 5v2 and any base input rate up to 192K and bios can be either with AVX512 enabled or disabled both results about the same.

 

I Manually overclock the my CPU cores; 4 cores at 5GHz, and 4 cores at 4.7GHz, voltage is set at auto and for 1024 CPU averages 1.33V and DSD512 ECv2 voltages run 1.398.  I am surprised Jussi that you get the 11600K to do DSD512 EC7v2, with Guass XLA filter and keeps temps near 72 with Silent fan mode.  Are you letting the MB automatically overclock?  When I do that my ave CPU voltages even at idle are 1.47-1.49 volts, wow, but temps stay about the same as my manual overclock.  Its the high voltages that keep me away from a full auto overclock.  I don't think even with 4.14.3 I could do Guass XLA w DSD512 EC7v2 and you can do it w 11600K.  I'm doing something wrong.

 

But DSD1024 with Guass XLA filter is magical, and 512 w ECv2 is also magical and certainly another level up from what I was limited to with the 10700K.  I just love HQP, Thank you!!

[Miska]

11 minutes ago, Quadman said:

Wow, and I get nervous when my Ave CPU temp in HWinfo64 goes above 70 C which it does on DSD512 w EC7 or 5 V2 (72-75C).  I have an HTPC case with Noctura NH-9DL cooler and 2 fans in push pull configuration.  DSD1024 ave CPU temps in the uppers 40's and 512 w ECv2 in the 70's.

 

That is normal temps and where the motherboard keeps the CPU by adjusting fan speeds.

 

11 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I also cannot get my 11900K to play any DSD512 with ECV2 modulators with any HQP version except 14.4.3, even when I turn off AVX512 in Bios, 4.16.1 and any 4.15 will not play DSD512 w ECV2 even with 2s filters.  14.4.3 I can play any 2s filter at 512 EC7 or 5v2 and any base input rate up to 192K and bios can be either with AVX512 enabled or disabled both results about the same.

 

Which OS are you using? If you are on Windows, try setting DSP_ACCELERATION=0 environment and see if it makes any difference.

 

11 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I am surprised Jussi that you get the 11600K to do DSD512 EC7v2, with Guass XLA filter and keeps temps near 72 with Silent fan mode.  Are you letting the MB automatically overclock?

 

It is not K-model, just plain i5-11600. From BIOS I do "Load optimized defaults" and then set "XMP Profile 1" for RAM. And then set all fans to Silent profile. That's all.

 

Machine is running Ubuntu Server 20.04 with stock lowlatency kernel to T+A HA 200 over USB. And the "amd" optimized build of HQPlayer Embedded. It has now been playing hours of playlists from Qobuz at DSD512.

 

[Quadman]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

Which OS are you using? If you are on Windows, try setting DSP_ACCELERATION=0 environment and see if it makes any difference.

Windows 11 Pro, That may be why you can and I can't.  Isn't turning AVX512 off in bios essentially the same as setting DSP_ACCELERATION=0 which I think turns AVX512 off for HQP?

 

10 minutes ago, Miska said:

It is not K-model, just plain i5-11600. From BIOS I do "Load optimized defaults" and then set "XMP Profile 1" for RAM. And then set all fans to Silent profile. That's all.

 

Machine is running Ubuntu Server 20.04 with stock lowlatency kernel to T+A HA 200 over USB. And the "amd" optimized build of HQPlayer Embedded. It has now been playing hours of playlists from Qobuz at DSD512.

 so you use AMD optimized build of HQP (I use desktop server) even though you have an intel CPU?  Is there a AMD version for desktop I can try?  Is it in the other folder in downloads?  Ubuntu probably gives you processing advantage over win 11.  I just have not made the leap to Ubuntu, change is hard.