Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

[esldude]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

Why am I going on and on about this?

 

Precisely for the topic as stated. I give an example of FirstWatt as exemplary of a designer that "knows his stuff", is unquestionably an expert in his field and is respectful of the goals of his customers i.e. audiophiles

 

I present this to highlight the dichotomy between "blind" measurement and listening. I am hardly anti-measurement, but I think at the end of the day knowledge of the schematic is critical to understanding the measurements.

 

For "subjectivists" here are a series of different designs that can be listened to. For "objectivists", here are different schematics that can be analyzed. I have suggested that it is easier to just listen  That's what I do when going over schematics  

 

We should try to look at things from the "other guy's" perspective (I didn't bring up the schematics initially because that's not where we started but am happy to discuss...). Rather than directing what people should like, we can observe what people do like and try to explain that. There doesn't need to be value judgment.

I don't think anyone will dispute 'just listen' is easier.  It also is the least reliable, least repeatable and least accurate method.  In fact if listening were all that it would be better than knowing the schematics, and measurements.  Yet it is not. 

[Sal1950]

4 hours ago, jabbr said:

Why am I going on and on about this?

I have absolutely no idea.

And I'm pretty sure you don't either.

[christopher3393]

54 minutes ago, esldude said:

I don't think anyone will dispute 'just listen' is easier.  It also is the least reliable, least repeatable and least accurate method.  In fact if listening were all that it would be better than knowing the schematics, and measurements.  Yet it is not. 

 

Don't you think that statement is a sweeping generalization? Are you saying "in all cases" or would you qualify that further?

[Ralf11]

I explicitly mentioned resistors as a possible BUT UNLIKELY source of audible differences, mansr

[esldude]

3 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

 

Don't you think that statement is a sweeping generalization? Are you saying "in all cases" or would you qualify that further?

It's too sweeping.  Sometimes the measurement is easier.  Take an audible minor FR issue. In the time spent listening to one song you could do a very accurate measure finding out more easily than listening how important the FR deficiencies are.

[fas42]

For me, listening is such an instantaneous feedback mechanism that measuring would be a huge waste of time, and highly likely tell me nothing of value - either I can hear flaws in the sound, or I can't; the word "better" is meaningless to me.

 

Main circuit topology and the "obvious" parts matter very little, IME - so, actives and resistors are never touched, capacitors only when they obviously are not good enough - it's all the other bits and pieces that can be so important, "the devil's in the details" stuff.

 

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

It's too sweeping.  Sometimes the measurement is easier.  Take an audible minor FR issue. In the time spent listening to one song you could do a very accurate measure finding out more easily than listening how important the FR deficiencies are.

That's fine if you can adjust the frequency issues but what if that adjustment is not in your purview? Is it not enough to know that it doesn't sound 'right'?

[esldude]

12 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

That's fine if you can adjust the frequency issues but what if that adjustment is not in your purview? Is it not enough to know that it doesn't sound 'right'?

If you know it doesn't sound right, and that is all, then where do you go from there?

 

If you measure and also know it doesn't sound right you know where you need to go.  You know this even if you don't have the ability to make that adjustment for what is making the sound different.  You may measure being unsure of the sound and would know where you need to go next.

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

If you know it doesn't sound right, and that is all, then where do you go from there?

You find something that sounds 'right'

1 hour ago, esldude said:

If you measure and also know it doesn't sound right you know where you need to go.  You know this even if you don't have the ability to make that adjustment for what is making the sound different.  You may measure being unsure of the sound and would know where you need to go next.

I'm sure that audio show-rooms will allow you to bring in measuring equipment - I regularly see AP scopes being brought in by potential customers.

[esldude]

9 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

You find something that sounds 'right'

 

 You make my point so well.  Your solution following your method limits the possibilities to any other piece of gear that might be available.  Not exactly a  big help. My solution will help you zero in on what gear will fill your needs, and allow you verify it as so.

Quote

I'm sure that audio show-rooms will allow you to bring in measuring equipment - I regularly see AP scopes being brought in by potential customers.

Well, I don't know if show rooms at audio salons would allow that or not. You are of course changing the subject at this point.  You can do plenty of testing without an AP if need be.  I can put it all in a backpack and leave room for lunch. 

 

I do remember one audio dealer who used to host those McIntosh clinics where you bring in your gear and see if it measured as well as McIntosh gear.  They also sold Nakamachi and were very happy to show you the real response between a Nak deck and any other.  As they had the gear and people to do repairs they would tell you other info from their little testing station if you knew enough to ask. 

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

 

 You make my point so well.  Your solution following your method limits the possibilities to any other piece of gear that might be available.  Not exactly a  big help. My solution will help you zero in on what gear will fill your needs, and allow you verify it as so.

Well if it's not available then it's moot,  no? Can't listen to something that's not available

 

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Well, I don't know if show rooms at audio salons would allow that or not. You are of course changing the subject at this point.  You can do plenty of testing without an AP if need be.  I can put it all in a backpack and leave room for lunch.

I was using an AP to show how ridiculous this is. How many audio show-rooms have you unpacked your measuring gear from your backpack & proceeded with measurements (while having your lunch)? 

[fas42]

If the system doesn't sound "right" then it's highly likely that it's a combination of interference mechanisms at play. Using something like an AP to try and find it is very much a wrong approach - common sense, experience, a willingness to experiment, will get one a long way towards at least understanding where the issues lie; how to long term resolve them then depends upon the system at hand.

[pkane2001]

15 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

I was using an AP to show how ridiculous this is. How many audio show-rooms have you unpacked your measuring gear from your backpack & proceeded with measurements (while having your lunch)? 

 

Is it also ridiculous to expect manufacturers to provide measurements? Or reviewers, for that matter? I don't expect to measure components in a show room, but I expect their measurements to be available for me to evaluate, before I pull the trigger.

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Is it also ridiculous to expect manufacturers to provide measurements? Or reviewers, for that matter? I don't expect to measure components in a show room, but I expect their measurements to be available for me to evaluate, before I pull the trigger.

A fully comprehensive set of measurements that will tell you how something will sound when put in your system & your room - yes, it's ridiculous!!

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

A fully comprehensive set of measurements that will tell you how something will sound when put in your system & your room - yes, it's ridiculous!!

 

I like how the argument about fixing a small FR problem suddenly turned into 'a fully comprehensive set of measurements'

 

If I know I have an FR problem with my preamp, I'll pick a preamp that doesn't have this problem. I'll do this by reading measurements and not by trying out dozens of preamps until I stumble upon one that fixes the problem.

 

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

I like how the argument about fixing a small FR problem suddenly turned into 'a fully comprehensive set of measurements'

That misunderstanding is probably because you are not following the discussion

 

7 hours ago, esldude said:

I don't think anyone will dispute 'just listen' is easier.  It also is the least reliable, least repeatable and least accurate method.  In fact if listening were all that it would be better than knowing the schematics, and measurements.  Yet it is not. 

 

[pkane2001]

 

4 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

That misunderstanding is probably because you are not following the discussion

 

Or maybe not 

1 hour ago, esldude said:

It's too sweeping.  Sometimes the measurement is easier.  Take an audible minor FR issue. In the time spent listening to one song you could do a very accurate measure finding out more easily than listening how important the FR deficiencies are.

[fas42]

Ahhh ... if only life were so easy, in every facet of one's existence - the easiest things to measure, to apply numbers to, are the most important things to deal with, that are most relevant to one's happiness ...

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

 

Or maybe not 

So you don't disagree with this:

 

1 hour ago, mmerrill99 said:

A fully comprehensive set of measurements that will tell you how something will sound when put in your system & your room - yes, it's ridiculous!!

But prefer to limit the discussion to a very specific FR issue

[pkane2001]

15 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

So you don't disagree with this:

 

A fully comprehensive set of measurements that will tell you how something will sound when put in your system & your room - yes, it's ridiculous!!

 

I don't disagree with it, because 'a fully comprehensive set of measurements' are just a start for me. A necessary part, but not my entire evaluation process.

 

15 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

But prefer to limit the discussion to a very specific FR issue

 

I know what FR errors sound like in my system, I've spent a lot of time measuring and correcting them. So, yes, that's a case where I would use measurements as the primary tool for picking a component. I can do this in under one minute in my system. Can you do the same with listening?

[mmerrill99]

Still wishing to ignore what was claimed

8 hours ago, esldude said:

I don't think anyone will dispute 'just listen' is easier.  It also is the least reliable, least repeatable and least accurate method.  In fact if listening were all that it would be better than knowing the schematics, and measurements.  Yet it is not.

& limit the discussion to a very specific FR issue

 

As Fas42 said - "if only life were so easy"

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Still wishing to ignore what was claimed

& limit the discussion to a very specific FR issue

 

I believe I have the right to chose which posts to respond to in this very long thread. Thanks, but I don't need your help.

 

Have fun with that one without me -- I already said a number of times (in this thread) what I think of measurements vs. listening. I'm not going to keep repeating it.

[mmerrill99]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I believe I have the right to chose which posts to respond to in this very long thread. Thanks, but I don't need your help.

 

Have fun with that one without me -- I already said a number of times (in this thread) what I think of measurements vs. listening. I'm not going to keep repeating it.

Yep, you have the right to do anything you wish on this thread as I also have the same rights pointing out your attempt at limiting the focus of my posts.

[pkane2001]

7 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Yep, you have the right to do anything you wish on this thread as I also have the same rights pointing out your attempt at limiting the focus of my posts.

We are finally in agreement

 

 

[esldude]

2 hours ago, mmerrill99 said:

 

I was using an AP to show how ridiculous this is. How many audio show-rooms have you unpacked your measuring gear from your backpack & proceeded with measurements (while having your lunch)? 

Yes, you are being ridiculous.

 

I have not measured potential candidates for purchase in a showroom.  I have done so when helping friends with issues or deciding on how to proceed.  Were there any audio dealers closer than 150 miles away, I could and would do such testing if it was related to potential purchases of myself or friends.  Which brings us of course to another advantage of measurements.  When done right you don't have to be present.  In my case, there are no dealers with showrooms reasonably close.  So how easy is listening you can't do?  Not very as you already mentioned. 

 

Maybe magazine reviews need to add to their review process.  They should start with a section that explains how they expect a design to sound and why before listening to it.  Then contrast that with how it sounded.  Even better if they always have two reviewers for each piece of gear in the magazine (HP at TAS did this at one time).  Let one see the measurements before listening and the other not.