Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

[pkane2001]

2 hours ago, mmerrill99 said:

just because we don't see this 8KHz noise spike on the outputs of the DAC doesn't mean it's not affecting other chips/clocks & intermixing with their own self-noise.

 

It may not be there at all. Or if it is present and 'intermixing' on the digital side, it may result in jitter. 8KHz is not signal-correlated, so even if it adds jitter, it will sound like uncorrelated noise.

[mmerrill99]

22 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

It may not be there at all. Or if it is present and 'intermixing' on the digital side, it may result in jitter. 8KHz is not signal-correlated, so even if it adds jitter, it will sound like uncorrelated noise.

Sure we don't know if it's there or not - I was just pointing out to you that absence of 8KHz spike does not mean that it is eliminated - it could be intermixed

I think you are confusing the idea of correlated jitter - it doesn't have to be correlated to the audio signal - correlation to any periodic signal will result in it NOT sounding "like uncorrelated noise"

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, mmerrill99 said:

Sure we don't know if it's there or not - I was just pointing out to you that absence of 8KHz spike does not mean that it is eliminated - it could be intermixed

I think you are confusing the idea of correlated jitter - it doesn't have to be correlated to the audio signal - correlation to any periodic signal will result in it NOT sounding "like uncorrelated noise"

 

When I say uncorrelated noise, I really do mean it's not correlated to the audio signal. Noise correlated to any fixed frequency will produce a constant tone, hum, high pitch, etc, but it will not vary with the audio signal. If you hear a constant pitch tone from your DAC, then perhaps you have an 8KHz issue. I hear no hum or other fixed sounds from my DAC. Do you?

[mmerrill99]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

When I say uncorrelated noise, I really do mean it's not correlated to the audio signal. Noise correlated to any fixed frequency will produce a constant tone, hum, high pitch, etc, but it will not vary with the audio signal. If you hear a constant pitch tone from your DAC, then perhaps you have an 8KHz issue. I hear no hum or other fixed sounds from my DAC. Do you?

I said it could intermingle with self noise from other devices. Who said this intermodulation would necessarily result in audio band hum?

[pkane2001]

Just now, mmerrill99 said:

I said it could intermingle with self noise from other devices. Who said this intermodulation would necessarily result in audio band hum?

 

So what would be the result of such intermodulation with an 8KHz signal? What's the effect on the analog output?

[mmerrill99]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So what would be the result of such intermodulation with an 8KHz signal? What's the effect on the analog output?

Well, it would require some deep analysis but what I'm questioning are your binary contentions that either we see 8KHz on DAC output or it's completely eliminated or the other alternative you gave that we hear a hum or it has no other audible effects.

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Well, it would require some deep analysis but what I'm questioning are your binary contentions that either we see 8KHz on DAC output or it's completely eliminated or the other alternative you gave that we hear a hum or it has no other audible effects.

What I was trying to say is that 8KHz is either not a problem, or it results an analog signal that can be heard at the output of the DAC (hum/fixed pitch), or it results in jitter that is most likely not audio signal correlated. Can you suggest another way that it can manifest itself?

[plissken]

21 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So what would be the result of such intermodulation with an 8KHz signal? What's the effect on the analog output?

It's like 60Hz ground loop hum. You will hear 8KHz tone as the USB bus is passed data frames.

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, plissken said:

I agree. When someone says 'Night and Day', 'Easy to Discern', 'Readily Apparent' those are easy to spot. Blinded.

 

Finally, something we can agree on!  

 

As can virtually all the people who are reporting about our products:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31877-iso-regen-listening-impressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/?do=findComment&comment=678859

 

Shall I await your next retort about how I should invite you or Amir into my home?  Or Jinjuku (I think that is your name over at ASR), will you just run over and start another nasty thread about me?

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/alex-of-uptone-hypocrisy-unbounded.1739/

 

 

[esldude]

Well here is my old Tact RCS 2.0 being fed via Audiophileo USB to SPDIF converter.  This is the FFT over 7-9 khz during a full scale twin tone IMD test signal.  Pretty massive 8 khz peak of something less than - 140 db.  Oh ADC is on USB too.

 

And for comparison using the same gear except Musical Fidelity Vlink USB to SPDIF converter.  A slightly more massive peak though still below - 140 db. Do you think this qualifies for properly designed USB or well designed USB.  Neither item is current state of the art.

 

I wonder if the Regen were inserted if that 8 khz area would be lower or higher?

[pkane2001]

28 minutes ago, esldude said:

Well here is my old Tact RCS 2.0 being fed via Audiophileo USB to SPDIF converter.  This is the FFT over 7-9 khz during a full scale twin tone IMD test signal.  Pretty massive 8 khz peak of something less than - 140 db.  Oh ADC is on USB too.

 

I wonder if the Regen were inserted if that 8 khz area would be lower or higher?

 

When my DAC is being fed a 12KHz -3dB sine wave at 24bits/48Khz I don't see anything at all above noise floor or around 8KHz.

ADC output is Toslink/SPDIF at 24/96KHz, so no extra USB receiver other than the one in my DAC.

 

 

[plissken]

42 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Finally, something we can agree on!  

 

As can virtually all the people who are reporting about our products:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31877-iso-regen-listening-impressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/?do=findComment&comment=678859

 

 

Shall I await your next retort about how I should invite you...into my home?

 

Doesn't have to be at your home. How about October's RMAF? I'll bring a $99 and $499 DAC. 

[esldude]

33 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

When my DAC is being fed a 12KHz -3dB sine wave at 24bits/48Khz I don't see anything at all above noise floor or around 8KHz.

ADC output is Toslink/SPDIF at 24/96KHz, so no extra USB receiver other than the one in my DAC.

 

 

Well Toslink may isolate it some.  The two examples I posted were for coax connection on the digital side.  The 8khz level is a little lower with a 12 khz tone with the Tact.  The IMD test signal causes a bit of grass in the FFT floor of the Tact.  I have a more recent $350 recording interface which shows essentially nothing related to 8 khz with either signal. 8 khz is around -150 db.  Here is the same 7-9 khz showing essentially the noise floor on the Focusrite 18i20 while a -3 db 12 khz tone is playing.  The point being you don't need exotic gear or isolation to have no substantial issues with 8 khz bleed thru.  Just well designed gear.

 

[pkane2001]

31 minutes ago, esldude said:

Well Toslink may isolate it some.  The two examples I posted were for coax connection on the digital side. 

 

Since Toslink is just the feed from the ADC into my laptop input on the sound card, I think the isolation is actually desirable. This is for measurement only, I don't use Toslink for listening.

 

A 1.8m USB cable connected the PC to the DAC. There is no 8KHz component, no matter what I try. Here's what that 12KHz signal looks like:

 

 

[Teresa]

18 hours ago, plissken said:

Because you are stipulating a change, that isn't able to be captured by instrumentation, and to not back it up with human trials is problematic. It's parlor tricks at that point.

 

Thanks for you answer, however I disagree. Read my posts and you will see I never stipulate how anything will sound for anyone else, I just report how it sounds to me. If interested they need to conduct their own audition.

 

There are lots of things that are not measurable and not just in audio/video. So is your plan to stifle anything that can't currently be measured? I disagree with that. My friend, famous audio engineer John Curl, says that we can only measure a small percent of what we can hear. 

 

Remember we all have different ear/brain systems, different audio systems, different rooms, etc. so we should be able to return a product that doesn't offer an improvement in sound quality as most everything now has a 30-day money back guarantee. Music Direct has 60-days. We didn't ask for or need your protection. I prefer the quest for superior sound quality, not be hindered. 

 

[Teresa]

15 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Last I understood, this "hobby" was about obtaining High Fidelity

Not just "sounds good to me"

 

I agree and that is why it is important to occasionally attend live acoustic music events. IMHO that is the goal of better reproduction equipment, getting closer to the real thing. The ear/brain system is the best tool to use to compare the real event to the reproduction of it.

[Teresa]

13 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Floyd Toole and others have proven it works.

 

What is your def'n of "work"?

 

No Toole hasn't.

 

I define working as showing a statistical difference in how two things sound. So far only very large differences such as level differences have been revealed in A/B or A/B/X blind tests. As far as I can see blind A/B'ing is guessing, and sighted A/B'ing is guessing.

[mansr]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

Spot on! What I have noted is that a remarkable number of audio enthusiasts seem to be totally oblivous of the fact that the system in front of them is outputting very high levels of obvious anomalies - they seem to have learned to shut down their hearing to these problems.

This effect is known as burn-in.

[semente]

18 minutes ago, mansr said:

This effect is known as burn-in.

 

Also known as habituation... 

[Dragonfyr]

Quote

There are lots of things that are not measurable and not just in audio/video. So is your plan to stifle anything that can't currently be measured? I disagree with that. My friend, famous audio engineer John Curl, says that we can only measure a small percent of what we can hear. 

Oh boy. Pray tell, what can't be measured in terms of sound? Please be specific. 

 

If we can only measure a small percent of what we hear and there are apparently many things that can't be measured using current technology then how are these "sounds" designed and engineered into the products? Divine intervention? I didn't know that alchemy was alive and well in 2017. 

[mmerrill99]

4 hours ago, Teresa said:

There are lots of things that are not measurable and not just in audio/video.

I don't believe that is the problem - I believe that it's just that these people are lazy thinkers - they know how to do an FFT & that's as far as their thinking goes for revealing something that is reported as perceivable when listening to dynamic signals.

 

Do they really think that FFTs of fixed tones are going to reveal what is audible?

[Confused]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

This effect is known as burn-in.

Super Burn In

Super Burn-In is the name we give to a unique cable enhancement that we've co-developed. One of our most exciting innovations, Super Burn-In uses a revolutionary technique to treat Kimber and Russ Andrews cables.

There are three levels of treatment; the first is standard Super Burn-In which can be applied to almost all Kimber and Russ Andrews power, interconnects and speaker cables. 

The second is an enhanced level of treatment - Super Burn-In Plus - which is a two-stage process, suitable for our PowerKords and SuperKords only.

The third level of treatment is called Super Burn-In Lite which we have developed to treat mains fuses and our PowerBar mains extension.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, Confused said:

Super Burn In

[pkane2001]

23 minutes ago, Confused said:

Super Burn In

Super Burn-In is the name we give to a unique cable enhancement that we've co-developed. One of our most exciting innovations, Super Burn-In uses a revolutionary technique to treat Kimber and Russ Andrews cables.

There are three levels of treatment; the first is standard Super Burn-In which can be applied to almost all Kimber and Russ Andrews power, interconnects and speaker cables. 

The second is an enhanced level of treatment - Super Burn-In Plus - which is a two-stage process, suitable for our PowerKords and SuperKords only.

The third level of treatment is called Super Burn-In Lite which we have developed to treat mains fuses and our PowerBar mains extension.

 

Finally there's an alternative to the tea-kettle method!

 

And here's another, with an explanation from Nordost (Vidar is the burn-in product):

Quote

When cables are first put into use, their directionality is not securely established. However, once the Vidar begins running current through the cables, the trapped gases are dissipated and small impurities in the conductor’s metal begin to act like a diode, favoring current flow in a particular direction. By using extremely wide bandwidth signal as well as a range of both ultra-low and high frequency sweeps, the Vidar stresses the conductors, neutralizes charges, improves the way that signals pass through metal and  ultrasonically conditions the surface of the conductors. It is these changes in both the conductor and insulation material that refines performance in audio cables.

 

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

However, once the Vidar begins running current through the cables, the trapped gases are dissipated and small impurities in the conductor’s metal begin to act like a diode, favoring current flow in a particular direction.

Then you realise that since audio signals are alternating currents, the micro-diode theory makes no sense at all.